Pope: There Is No Hell

#402
#402
barknoxbrawler said:
Here is what I believe. If the word of God is ordained by Him (which it is), and He is all powerful, then all translations are what He wants it to be.

All translations point to Jesus and His servanthood.
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Fact is, they are not all the same, so they cant all be Gods perfect word.
 
#403
#403
Wafflestomper said:
Can't sin if I'm in a coma!
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You're too smart for your own good! :) Try that and see how it works! :crazy:
 
#404
#404
BigO95 said:
I have given you enough proof already that you simple deny. The juice could have easily been preserved after the feast or even been all drank up. You don't have enough details in the story to go any farther with it.
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Ahh, so Jesus makes a bunch of grape juice and burdens others with the task of reducing it back down again the next day. What a guy!

The possibility that the guests drank all 3,000 to 4,000 glasses is closed to the grape juice interpretation, since that interpretation must take the servant's statement to mean that the guests are no longer thirsty. That is, they are no longer interested in drinking. The inferior wine, at this point which is usually served, is merely for display, a pretense to show that the hosts have the means to continue to serve grape juice long after nobody else wants any.

The alcoholic wine interpretation does not face this problem. As, now the servant's statement can be quite naturally read as the following: the good wine is served first because the guests senses are not yet dulled and they can fully taste and appreciate this wine. The inferior wine comes later, when the guests still want to drink and carouse, but can no longer distinguish between good and inferior wine. However, you, Jesus, have saved the good wine for last and it is so amazing that these guests, even though they are well drunk, will still be able to appreciate the difference because the separation is so great.

Further, what is left over can easily be finished off over the next few days, as the festivities continue, and, thus, they will be able to appreciate just how great this alcoholic wine is tomorrow.
 
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#406
#406
therealUT said:
Ahh, so Jesus makes a bunch of grape juice and burdens others with the task of reducing it back down again the next day. What a guy!

The possibility that the guests drank all 3,000 to 4,000 glasses is closed to the grape juice interpretation, since that interpretation must take the servant's statement to mean that the guests are no longer thirsty. That is, they are no longer interested in drinking. The inferior wine, at this point which is usually served, is merely for display, a pretense to show that the hosts have the means to continue to serve grape juice long after nobody else wants any.

The alcoholic wine interpretation does not face this problem. As, now the servant's statement can be quite naturally read as the following: the good wine is served first because the guests senses are not yet dulled and they can fully taste and appreciate this wine. The inferior wine comes later, when the guests still want to drink and carouse, but can no longer distinguish between good and inferior wine. However, you, Jesus, have saved the good wine for last and it is so amazing that these guests, even though they are well drunk, will still be able to appreciate the difference because the separation is so great.

Further, what is left over can easily be finished off over the next few days, as the festivities continue, and, thus, they will be able to appreciate just how great this alcoholic wine is tomorrow.
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It's never a burden to get free food or juice when you are in need.
John 2:10 (KJV)
10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
Notice, it say's, ' when men have well drunk', not they were well drunk. There's a big difference there.
 
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#407
#407
BigO95 said:
It's never a burden to get free food or juice when you are in need.
John 2:10 (KJV)
10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
Notice, it say's, ' when men have well drunk', not they were well drunk. There's a big difference there.
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The burden is on those who must spend the next morning heating and reducing the leftover juice

Or, are you claiming that either Jesus performed this task or that his second miracle is simply making the leftover juice disappear or simply reducing, in one instant, the leftover juice back into syrup?

It sure seems like your "literal" translation relies on a whole host of things that are not literally stated in order for your translation to work. That is, you may think you take the Bible literally, but you don't.

At that point, the entire Bible is subject to a contextualizing interpretation project (which, it already is due to Genesis).
 
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#409
#409
Also, ancient Jewish wedding feasts often lasted for about a week. Jesus could make wine that would therefore be ready to drink the following day and the day after that and the day after that, or Jesus could make grape juice which, the leftovers would have to be reduced to syrup and then re-upped with water, and this consuming process would have to take place each day over this festival period.

That is, one interpretation gives us a miracle in which Jesus takes action and supplies everyone for the rest of the duration of the festival, such that no work is needed during the festival in order to ensure that they always have drink available on each day; the other interpretation gives us a miracle in which a whole lot of people are going to have to do a whole lot of work.

The only mark against the first interpretation is the reader bringing into the interpretation the baggage that alcohol is bad.
 
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#410
#410
therealUT said:
Also, ancient Jewish wedding feasts often lasted for about a week. Jesus could make wine that would therefore be ready to drink the following day and the day after that and the day after that, or Jesus could make grape juice which, the leftovers would have to be reduced to syrup and then re-upped with water, and this consuming process would have to take place each day over this festival period.

That is, one interpretation gives us a miracle in which Jesus takes action and supplies everyone for the rest of the duration of the festival, such that no work is needed during the festival in order to ensure that they always have drink available on each day; the other interpretation gives us a miracle in which a whole lot of people are going to have to do a whole lot of work.

The only mark against the first interpretation is the reader bringing into the interpretation the baggage that alcohol is bad.
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I think the bigger miracle would be serving a wedding party a bunch of grape juice and the party being happy about it.
 
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#411
#411
BigO95 said:
the text was never Changed on the KJV, just grammar. He is able to do the same today, but it's just not necessary seeing we already have a bible in English. Now the trouble with all the new versions is the Greek text that they are translated from.
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The modern translations went back to the oldest known copies of the original texts known to exist, including the Dead Sea Scrolls.
 
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#412
#412
MyBloodRunnethOrange said:
The modern translations went back to the oldest known copies of the original texts known to exist, including the Dead Sea Scrolls.
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They leaned heaviest on junk manuscripts, Vaticanus and siniaticus. Westcott and Hort were heretics.
 
#414
#414
therealUT said:
Also, ancient Jewish wedding feasts often lasted for about a week. Jesus could make wine that would therefore be ready to drink the following day and the day after that and the day after that, or Jesus could make grape juice which, the leftovers would have to be reduced to syrup and then re-upped with water, and this consuming process would have to take place each day over this festival period.

That is, one interpretation gives us a miracle in which Jesus takes action and supplies everyone for the rest of the duration of the festival, such that no work is needed during the festival in order to ensure that they always have drink available on each day; the other interpretation gives us a miracle in which a whole lot of people are going to have to do a whole lot of work.

The only mark against the first interpretation is the reader bringing into the interpretation the baggage that alcohol is bad.
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Twist it anyway you please, Gods word is plain against drunkenness. That includes alcohol.
Here's a reminder of thaProverbs 23:29-35 (KJV)
29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. [ that's the fermenting process]
32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.
34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.
35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.
 
#415
#415
BigO95 said:
Twist it anyway you please, Gods word is plain against drunkenness. That includes alcohol.
Here's a reminder of thaProverbs 23:29-35 (KJV)
29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. [ that's the fermenting process]
32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.
34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.
35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.
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And, is course, this can't be understood as an admonition against spending too much time thinking about drinking such that it occupies your life and you neglect your duties. Nope, it is literally saying that looking at wine is a sin.

And, of course, that makes perfect sense.
 
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#416
#416
therealUT said:
And, is course, this can't be understood as an admonition against spending too much time thinking about drinking such that it occupies your life and you neglect your duties. Nope, it is literally saying that looking at wine is a sin.

And, of course, that makes perfect sense.
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It tell the dangers of alcohol and warns not to tempt yourself with it. It's very easy to understand.
 
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#417
#417
BigO95 said:
It tell the dangers of alcohol and warns not to tempt yourself with it. It's very easy to understand.
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Literally, it says don't look at it.

Sure, alcohol poses risks. As such, wisdom requires taking it seriously. But, that something poses a risk does not and cannot mean that it's a Biblical sin.
 
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#418
#418
BigO95 said:
I personally like my logic better than yours and would reasonably believe that you like yours better than mine. There is still the fact that the KJV came from a different pool of manuscripts that the new versions did.
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You are still making selections beyond what scripture says of itself. You suffer from your own criticisms.
 
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#419
#419
Curious... If those who produced the English translation couldn't rely on these Greek and Latin manuscripts, because they are terrible (according to you), but were specially inspired by God, such that we should view the English translations as a special revelation, then why didn't God just tell them to clearly say "grape juice"?

Instead, in this special revelation, God tells them to use "wine", which, in English, clearly means alcoholic.

Your position fails on its own merits.
 
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#420
#420
therealUT said:
Literally, it says don't look at it.

Sure, alcohol poses risks. As such, wisdom requires taking it seriously. But, that something poses a risk does not and cannot mean that it's a Biblical sin.
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The same book (Proverbs) literally says not to look at a whore. He doesn't interpret that one as literal, yet he does per alcohol. That has been pointed out to him before. He's seeking verses to support his preference; not basing his preference on an honest interpretation.
 
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#421
#421
Orange_Crush said:
The same book (Proverbs) literally says not to look at a whore. He doesn't interpret that one as literal, yet he does per alcohol. That has been pointed out to him before. He's seeking verses to support his preference; not basing his preference on an honest interpretation.
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He has to look at his mom!

Sorry. Couldnt resist. Softball right over the plate.

Only a joke. TIFWIW. YMMV.
 
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#424
#424
Orange_Crush said:
You are still making selections beyond what scripture says of itself. You suffer from your own criticisms.
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Psalm 12:6 (KJV)
6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

REV 22:18-19[KJV]
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

1 Peter 1:25 - But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

2 Timothy 3:16 - All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Romans 15:4 - For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Isaiah 40:8 - The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

Hebrews 4:12 - For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

2 Peter 1:21 - For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.

Psalms 119:105 - NUN. Thy word [is] a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 - For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received [it] not [as] the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.


Sounds like big statements to me.
Psalms Chapter 12

6 The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.


Isaiah 40:8 - The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

Matthew 24:35 - Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Psalms 119:89 - LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

Matthew 5:18 - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


Psalms 119:127 - Therefore I love thy commandments above gold; yea, above fine gold.
 
#425
#425
McDad said:
He has to look at his mom!

Sorry. Couldnt resist. Softball right over the plate.

Only a joke. TIFWIW. YMMV.
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I would appreciate it if you would keep your filthy mouth off of my dead mother.

That joke aint funny.
 
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