America's Polarization

#1
TennNC

TennNC

a lover, not a fighter
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#1
New book titled "The Big Sort" - about how polarized our neighborhoods have become.

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"We've built a country where we can all choose the neighborhood and church and news show — most compatible with our lifestyle and beliefs. And we are living with the consequences of this way-of-life segregation. Our country has become so polarized, so ideologically inbred, that people don't know and can't understand those who live just a few miles away."

Tip of the cap to OE. Thoughts?
 
#3
#3
massive polarization isn't new, it's just more newsworthy today because news shows base their business on drawing those lines.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#5
#5
Excerpts

From a conservative resident of a liberal neighborhood:

"[The] ideological balkanization of America is dead-on true . . . Living here, especially as an "out" Republican, is a great deal of fun, and I learn a great deal from it. The most valuable thing that I learn daily is the capacity to respect people with whom I have disagreements."

Other than the fact he's an R and I'm a D, I share his sentiments.
 
#8
#8
TennNC said:
I suck at many things. Post sarcasm detection is one of them.

So, might you read it?
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I'd like to find an article version without the pre-drawn conclusion that the phenomenon is "tearing us apart". I know that guy wants to sell books but it appears to exaggerate the dire consequences. Also, I don't think I need an entire book to get the point he's trying to make.

As a trend, it's interesting to me as a marketer and something I would share with my class. I'm looking for a scaled down version to throw in a set of readings I use when I discuss socio-cultural trends.

As for the joke - I was referring to your pushing me to read Frank's book and then you post about another one for us (me) to read.
 
#9
#9
volinbham said:
I'd like to find an article version without the pre-drawn conclusion that the phenomenon is "tearing us apart". I know that guy wants to sell books but it appears to exaggerate the dire consequences. Also, I don't think I need an entire book to get the point he's trying to make.

As a trend, it's interesting to me as a marketer and something I would share with my class. I'm looking for a scaled down version to throw in a set of readings I use when I discuss socio-cultural trends.

As for the joke - I was referring to your pushing me to read Frank's book and then you post about another one for us (me) to read.
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Yes. I get the joke.

I prefer articles over books b/c I don't have the attention span. Though I think reading the book would be worthwhile. Here's an article:

Political segregation | The Big Sort | Economist.com

Be careful on calling it a "trend" - according to BigPapa, it's not a trend - it's been going on forever.
 
#10
#10
I looked at the Economist article a little earlier. Thanks for the link. I'd like to find something with a bit more of the evidence.

In someways, I would agree with BPV. Clearly, we used to be highly segregated with ethnic groups living together within cities, speaking their own language and attending their own churches. Perhaps the largest change is the fragmentation of the media which has facilitated narrow and distinct versions of news, culture, etc. to reach people based on choice. I'm not sure how the author defines "neighborhood" - obviously the more narrowly defined it is, the more he can make his case. As I think of Birmingham, I would argue that both the city and the MSA have become more diverse during the time frame he examines and in particular over the last decade or so.

I'd also be curious how he handles virtual neighborhoods. There is a "connectedness" trend also occuring where people interact less with the people they are physically close to and more with people that are geographically distant. The Volnation is a prime example.
 
#11
#11
volinbham said:
I looked at the Economist article a little earlier. Thanks for the link. I'd like to find something with a bit more of the evidence.

In someways, I would agree with BPV. Clearly, we used to be highly segregated with ethnic groups living together within cities, speaking their own language and attending their own churches. Perhaps the largest change is the fragmentation of the media which has facilitated narrow and distinct versions of news, culture, etc. to reach people based on choice. I'm not sure how the author defines "neighborhood" - obviously the more narrowly defined it is, the more he can make his case. As I think of Birmingham, I would argue that both the city and the MSA have become more diverse during the time frame he examines and in particular over the last decade or so.

I'd also be curious how he handles virtual neighborhoods. There is a "connectedness" trend also occuring where people interact less with the people they are physically close to and more with people that are geographically distant. The Volnation is a prime example.
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A bit more evidence might be found in the book itself. :)

When he says neighborhood, he means neighborhood. Not MSA. The only one in Bham I know by name is Mountain Brook. You get the point.

America's diversity has been expanding. But outside most city centers, we're clearly distinguishing ourselves by neighborhood.

I want to see what he says about virtual neighborhoods as well. I bet they're more polarized than actual neighborhoods. My previous post was a direct reference to Volnation, in fact - in many ways I feel like the Republican resident of Travis Heights.
 
#12
#12
I find this interesting:

"Intriguingly, the more educated Americans become, the more insular they are. (Hence Mr Miller's confusion.) Better-educated people tend to be richer, so they have more choice about where they live. And they are more mobile. One study that covered most of the 1980s and 1990s found that 45% of young Americans with a college degree moved state within five years of graduating, whereas only 19% of those with only a high-school education did."

Also, what I like about the premise is that he's not blaming one side or the other. At its core is commentary on human nature. We don't have to agree with him that it's "tearing us apart" - that's subjective. But it's clear (and I'm as guilty as anyone) that we're much more likely to stick with where we feel most comfortable, and the lines between our comfort zones and "dis"comfort zones are becoming very clear.
 
#13
#13
i think we've become a very angry nation and more polarized. We have access to debate forums, news, and political websites 24/7. we can get on any website or forum and argue for 8-10 straight hours, 5-6 days a week about religion, sports or politics. naturally we all get fired and angry on comments or thought which we disagree with, the problems is that a lot of people don't or can't let it go, so that angry either stays, gets worse or both. a lot of people don't or can't get away from that constant stream of news or political info. it has to make people very bitter and that bitter lingers. i think it also helps root our beliefs and ideas more firmly. however, the roots aren't necessarily strengthened for the right reasons. i don't think i'm explaining this very good, but i hope you guys get the gist of what i'm saying.
 
#14
#14
joevol320 said:
i think we've become a very angry nation and more polarized. We have access to debate forums, news, and political websites 24/7. we can get on any website or forum and argue for 8-10 straight hours, 5-6 days a week about religion, sports or politics. naturally we all get fired and angry on comments or thought which we disagree with, the problems is that a lot of people don't or can't let it go, so that angry either stays, gets worse or both. a lot of people don't or can't get away from that constant stream of news or political info. it has to make people very bitter and that bitter lingers. i think it also helps root our beliefs and ideas more firmly. however, the roots aren't necessarily strengthened for the right reasons. i don't think i'm explaining this very good, but i hope you guys get the gist of what i'm saying.
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I get what you're saying, and to an extent I agree.

But I also LOVE that people speak their minds. I love that we're not afraid to voice our opinions. It's healthy to vent.

I wish there was more civil exchange between opposite-minded people. I would appreciate if our legislators would listen to what we have to say more often and take that to heart when drafting and debating legislation. And I wish we had more access to what's going on behind the scenes of writing our laws. Trying to read a bill is like trying to read ancient Greek. I digress.
 
#15
#15
nothing wrong with speaking your mind, but if you're doing it 5-7hrs a day, 7 days a week it has ware on you emontionally (without you knowing) even if you're trying to be civil about one's discussion.
 
#16
#16
It actually helps having a 24 hour system (internet blogs) for venting your anger with what you choose. You can go to a site where everyone agrees with you or you can go and pick a fight, its all therapy :)
 
#17
#17
TennNC said:
When he says neighborhood, he means neighborhood. Not MSA. The only one in Bham I know by name is Mountain Brook. You get the point.

The neighborhood I live in is quite diverse (Crestwood). It has seniors who've been here for ever, starter families, alternative lifestylers, etc. It's both red and blue and is increasingly diverse. I'm guessing it qualifies for the definition of neighborhood. My cul de sac alone has a black family, a gay couple, 2 single senior citizens, a white couple in their 50s, a upwardly mobile couple in their 30's and an interracial lesbian couple. The politics among this group alone are all over the place. I'm not the furtherest right and by far not the furthest left. The same is true of the education level.

By narrowly defining neighborhoods, you create an artificial barrier - it is rare that people stay within those neighborhood confines. The very mobility that is creating the homogeneity serves as a guard against it.
I want to see what he says about virtual neighborhoods as well. I bet they're more polarized than actual neighborhoods. My previous post was a direct reference to Volnation, in fact - in many ways I feel like the Republican resident of Travis Heights.

I would guess you are less alone than you think. The vast majority of VNers do not participate in the Politics forum.

I would suggest that there is more political debate now than there was in the day's the author longs for. Perhaps the root cause is the increasing number of forums for debate and avenues for opinion expression (as JoeVol suggests). Maybe that's what is tearing us apart.
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#18
#18
volinbham said:
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You live in a diverse neighborhood. There are always exceptions, of course, especially inside city centers. My neighborhood is demographically diverse, yet there is not one single McCain sign or sticker, not one W The President, not one Bush/Cheney - nowhere. A whole lot of Obama ones though. And I don't have to drive 3 miles to find an equally distinct, yet opposite neighborhood. I wonder if they're there and just not speaking up, for whatever reason. Or if it truly is as like-minded as it seems.

I don't know that the author is longing for a return to older days. Did you read that somewhere? I think he's making an observation and pointing out what he sees as the effects (net, in his mind, being negative).

Of course, we really should read the book instead of speculating more on what's in it.
 
#19
#19
Okay here's an example of why I become skeptical:

And the home-schooling movement, which has grown rapidly in recent decades, shields more than 1m American children from almost any ideas their parents dislike.
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Sounds like home-schooling is a major and growing reason for the "problem".

Is 1 million a big number? As a percentage of school age children how would that compare to the number of children (as a percentage of the total) that didn't even go to school in the 60's?

How does this factor in the increasing emphasis on "multi-culturalism" in schools since the 60's. Clearly, the huge percentage of students in public schools exposed to the multi-cultural curriculum would more than offset the small percentage that have opted out of the system, no?

How about the growth in the proportion of the population that goes to college now compared to 1960. Surely this increases the exposure to new ideas among the populace compared to 4 decades ago.
 
#20
#20
volinbham said:
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One other thing - I bet most Americans spend significantly more time in their neighborhood than any other single place (work being second, sometimes they're one and the same), thus I don't think it's a stretch to look at neighborhood dynamics.
 
#21
#21
volinbham said:
Okay here's an example of why I become skeptical:

Sounds like home-schooling is a major and growing reason for the "problem".

Is 1 million a big number? As a percentage of school age children how would that compare to the number of children (as a percentage of the total) that didn't even go to school in the 60's?

How does this factor in the increasing emphasis on "multi-culturalism" in schools since the 60's. Clearly, the huge percentage of students in public schools exposed to the multi-cultural curriculum would more than offset the small percentage that have opted out of the system, no?

How about the growth in the proportion of the population that goes to college now compared to 1960. Surely this increases the exposure to new ideas among the populace compared to 4 decades ago.
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The rapid rise of home schooling is just an illustration of the wider dynamic.

Couldn't you also say that college choice is highly affected by your upbringing up to that point? I chose a Presbyterian school that nearly mirrored my HS experience. My grad school roommate chose BYU to nearly mirror his LDS upbringing. Historically Black Colleges and Universities are made up of, well, black Americans.

Again, of course there are exceptions, but overall, we tend to stick together.

What are you skeptical of? What do you think the author's motives are, other than to make people think and sell some books?
 
#22
#22
TennNC said:
One other thing - I bet most Americans spend significantly more time in their neighborhood than any other single place (work being second, sometimes they're one and the same), thus I don't think it's a stretch to look at neighborhood dynamics.
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Not a stretch by any means but it ignores inter-neighborhood interactions and other countervailing trends.

All these things may be addressed by the author but I get the impression that supporting facts are emphasized and contradicting facts are minimized.

We also have a causation vs. correlation issue. Are political views more strongly imbedded now (assuming that assertion is true) because of this phenomenon or are their other explanations? Again from the limited amount I've read in excerpts and reviews, the author begins with the conclusion and works backwards to the facts.
 
#23
#23
volinbham said:
Not a stretch by any means but it ignores inter-neighborhood interactions and other countervailing trends.

All these things may be addressed by the author but I get the impression that supporting facts are emphasized and contradicting facts are minimized.

We also have a causation vs. correlation issue. Are political views more strongly imbedded now (assuming that assertion is true) because of this phenomenon or are their other explanations? Again from the limited amount I've read in excerpts and reviews, the author begins with the conclusion and works backwards to the facts.
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Assumptions. Might be true, but we don't know until we read it.

Of course the promo pieces will be more direct so that the book doesn't come across as bland.
 
#24
#24
TennNC said:
Again, of course there are exceptions, but overall, we tend to stick together.

True since the dawn of man.
What are you skeptical of? What do you think the author's motives are, other than to make people think and sell some books?
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I'm skeptical of the chain of causation being alleged:

we are becoming increasingly isolated across all dimensions leads to increased polarization of political views leads to groupthink and unwillingness to listen to opposing views leads to more extreme views leads to "tearing the country apart"

Each of these conclusions increasingly requires suspension of countervailing facts.

My job is to be skeptical when it comes to theory building. I have to do it myself and I review the work of others. I haven't reviewed this work so it's unfair to reject it but it certainly calls for scrutiny given the chain of causation that is proposed.

I don't view the author as having any motives other than those of any other researcher. The reason for peer review is that researchers often fall in love with their own theories.

Nothing wrong with putting this out to stimulate thought but the author has drawn our conclusions for us. Whenever that happens, I am skeptical.
 
#25
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TennNC said:
Couldn't you also say that college choice is highly affected by your upbringing up to that point? I chose a Presbyterian school that nearly mirrored my HS experience. My grad school roommate chose BYU to nearly mirror his LDS upbringing. Historically Black Colleges and Universities are made up of, well, black Americans.
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Wouldn't you agree that even going to a Presbyterian college exposed you to more diverse ideas than you would have been exposed to if you worked in the factory in your home town?

The author's premise is that individuals are somehow less exposed to ideas/cultures/experiences than the typical individual was 10, 20, 30, 40 etc years ago. I'm can think of many reasons why this might not be the case without doing the research.
 
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