Will science destroy religion

#151
#151
MaxamusXIII said:
OC
In your mind how does Yeshua Messiah (Jesus) satisfy Torah? As a Jew or practitioner of Judaism I believe he does and have an answer that I will not force on anyone else. And I should add I'm not looking to argue or pick at your beliefs. I'm legitimately curious of your thoughts.
And #2. Do you believe repentance is required for salvation?


And before we go off on a tangent.....I think you believe in a Triune God where I believe Yeshua Messiah is issued the authority of G-d much like the angle of the lord in Exodus. The name of G-d is literally in Him. I don't think that is a salvation issue as either belief recognizes the authority of Messiah.
I'm more interested in how the rules are applied in your mind.
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I think that it'll take a lot of typing to get to root of those questions, and I think we may not end up in a very positive place, having done so.

The cliff notes is that, (#1) having put faith in Jesus, I have inherited His righteousness. (#2) I don't think that repentance is necessary for salvation, but I do believe that salvation will produce transformation, which will create repentance.

As to your last paragraph, I feel it is a salvation issue and you are in dangerous territory. (But I respect you and don't want to offend you, so it may be better that we talk about Butch's firing and who the next coach should be.)
 
#152
#152
hog88 said:
Niether. Science and religion can and should coexist and complement.
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I read a book called Science and Religion by John F. Haught a few years ago, and it was fascinating. My priest gave it to me and I recommend it to any of you.
 
#154
#154
Orange_Crush said:
I would also recommend The Soul of Science. Great read.
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Will you explain your beliefs as relates to physical laws and the Bible? ie do you believe that God suspended the physical laws when Johah lived 3 days in the belly of a big fish and can He suspend those laws at any time?
 
#155
#155
ClearwaterVol said:
Will you explain your beliefs as relates to physical laws and the Bible? ie do you believe that God suspended the physical laws when Johah lived 3 days in the belly of a big fish and can He suspend those laws at any time?
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I don't know if he suspended physical laws for Jonah. The Bible doesn't go into any specifics. It just said that he was in the belly of the fish for three days. I guess there may be some scientific, natural explanation for that possibility. Short of one, God could have given him supernatural care.

I believe God created an ordered universe/reality with natural laws. To express a belief in miracles is by definition expressing a belief in natural laws.

I believe that God can suspend the laws when He sees fit.
 
#156
#156
Orange_Crush said:
I don't know if he suspended physical laws for Jonah. The Bible doesn't go into any specifics. It just said that he was in the belly of the fish for three days. I guess there may be some scientific, natural explanation for that possibility. Short of one, God could have given him supernatural care.

I believe God created an ordered universe/reality with natural laws. To express a belief in miracles is by definition expressing a belief in natural laws.

I believe that God can suspend the laws when He sees fit.
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OC -
It seems that if that is the case then it makes the value of scientific experiments somewhat worthless, doesn't it? As you know, I am not religious because religion and science often seem incompatible. I lean more towards what can be proven. When I was more religious, I saw Noah and Jonah more as parables than historical events.

Max -
You stated, I believe, that yours was a God of laws. Will you elaborate in the context of this conversation?
 
#157
#157
ClearwaterVol said:
OC -
It seems that if that is the case then it makes the value of scientific experiments somewhat worthless, doesn't it?
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You will need to explain that belief to me, as it doesn't follow.

Are you saying that if miracles are possible, it means we can't trust or recognize natural laws in action? That would be counter to the very definition of miracles, which are only notable as miracles because we recognize that they are counter to natural laws.
 
#158
#158
Orange_Crush said:
You will need to explain that belief to me, as it doesn't follow.

Are you saying that if miracles are possible, it means we can't trust or recognize natural laws in action? That would be counter to the very definition of miracles, which are only notable as miracles because we recognize that they are counter to natural laws.
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I tend to believe that there are logical explanations for miracles that do not require a suspension of physical laws. I guess that means I don't believe in miracles, but only the highly improbable.
 
#159
#159
ClearwaterVol said:
I tend to believe that there are logical explanations for miracles that do not require a suspension of physical laws. I guess that means I don't believe in miracles, but only the highly improbable.
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That's fine. It has little to do with your previous point per the scientific method's usability in a universe where miracles are possible.
 
#160
#160
Orange_Crush said:
That's fine. It has little to do with your previous point per the scientific method's usability in a universe where miracles are possible.
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Sure it does. I don't believe that the physical laws are ever suspended. If they were suspended, how is that suspension accounted for, scientifically?
 
#161
#161
ClearwaterVol said:
OC -
It seems that if that is the case then it makes the value of scientific experiments somewhat worthless, doesn't it?
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ClearwaterVol said:
Sure it does. I don't believe that the physical laws are ever suspended. If they were suspended, how is that suspension accounted for, scientifically?
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I need you to tell me how the possibility of or a belief in miracles makes the scientific process worthless. Science is about repetition, testing and logging.

For instance, people die and stay dead. That's repeated and repeatable fact. It's not denied. Let's call it "scientifically established".

Then Jesus shows up and claims to be God. He died. He comes back three days later.

Did that do away with the scientifically established reality that people die and stay dead? Did that overturn the established natural law? Or did that highlight that a natural law had been broken?

Anyway, I believe that Jesus rose from the dead. I recognize that as superceding natural law. I don't see that as an expectation that I can jump off of a bridge and come back to life.

I see and respect the natural law. I believe the miracle. How did the belief or repeating testable proof--that dead people stay dead--"become worthless"?

Please explain. I still don't see how your claim toward worthlessness follows.
 
#162
#162
Orange_Crush said:
I need you to tell me how the possibility of or a belief in miracles makes the scientific process worthless. Science is about repetition, testing and logging.

For instance, people die and stay dead. That's repeated and repeatable fact. It's not denied. Let's call it "scientifically established".

Then Jesus shows up and claims to be God. He died. He comes back three days later.

Did that do away with the scientifically established reality that people die and stay dead? Did that overturn the established natural law? Or did that highlight that a natural law had been broken?

Anyway, I believe that Jesus rose from the dead. I recognize that as superceding natural law. I don't see that as an expectation that I can jump off of a bridge and come back to life.

I see and respect the natural law. I believe the miracle. How did the belief or repeating testable proof--that dead people stay dead--"become worthless"?

Please explain. I still don't see how your claim toward worthlessness follows.
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The value in physical laws is that they are repeatable every single time without exception. If a specific law appears to have been broken there is a variable that was not accounted for by the tester. Once that variable is accounted for then the law is perfectly reliable once again.

However, my term worthless may be a bit of an overstatement.
 
#163
#163
ClearwaterVol said:
The value in physical laws is that they are repeatable every single time without exception. If a specific law appears to have been broken there is a variable that was not accounted for by the tester. Once that variable is accounted for then the law is perfectly reliable once again.

However, my term worthless may be a bit of an overstatement.
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Yes. Your verbiage was more than a bit of an overstatement. And you are free to abide that philosophy of science. The problem should be clear.

If miracles do indeed happen, you've disbarred your ever recognizing that miracles indeed happen. Whereas, a not-so-severe philosophy of science would allow for recognition of both physical laws and miracles, should they happen.

I should add that my view on miracles entails that they are generally signs from God, so they are meant to be plainly seen as miracles. And, whatever miracle narratives I believe (Bible), they never once called agreed natural laws into question.

Can you give me an example of a miracle causing science to become impossible?

And I should add that you and I would use the exact same process, except I don't think the law was ever unreliable. In other words, the law was always the law. God just set it aside for a moment.

But I would test, and retest, and retest. If it failed repeat ability once, I would say that there was an unaccounted variable. It'st that, for me, one of the possibilities for variability would be God's direct action. All I'm doing is allowing one more variable than you. Same scientific process, and it should work just as well.
 
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#164
#164
ClearwaterVol said:
OC -
It seems that if that is the case then it makes the value of scientific experiments somewhat worthless, doesn't it? As you know, I am not religious because religion and science often seem incompatible. I lean more towards what can be proven. When I was more religious, I saw Noah and Jonah more as parables than historical events.

Max -
You stated, I believe, that yours was a God of laws. Will you elaborate in the context of this conversation?
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Sure.
The G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (YHWH) is the G-d I believe in. Some claim this but their belief is inconsistent with Him.
G-d gave us Torah to be a blessing to those who love him and a curse to those who don't. Torah is commonly known as "the law" but should more accurately be known as the standard. YHWH is self described as the unchanging creator and father of Knowledge. To find a Mike drop speach by G-d you can read the "where were you speach when I...." in the book of Job.
I find it inconsistent that a G-d who describes Himself this way would choose to operate outside the rules He established for this universe.
I believe He could.....I just don't think He does.


OC.
I choose to live my life according to G-ds word Messiah is the fulfillment of Leviticus 4-5-6. It is that sacrifice and repentance that saves me. Everyone will be judged before G-d one day and they'll be there without excuse and all by themselves. Some will have Yeshua as their advocate some won't.
That's why I usually don't waste a lot of time telling others what sin is. They need to decide that for themselves. If they are not concerned enough to test and find out what they believe......well they can answer for that too......without me.

As for me and my house we will serve YHWH. And Yeshua Messiah whom He sent.
 
#165
#165
Orange_Crush said:
Yes. Your verbiage was more than a bit of an overstatement. And you are free to abide that philosophy of science. The problem should be clear.

If miracles do indeed happen, you've disbarred your ever recognizing that miracles indeed happen. Whereas, a not-so-severe philosophy of science would allow for recognition of both physical laws and miracles, should they happen.

I should add that my view on miracles entails that they are generally signs from God, so they are meant to be plainly seen as miracles. And, whatever miracle narratives I believe (Bible), they never once called agreed natural laws into question.

Can you give me an example of a miracle causing science to become impossible?

And I should add that you and I would use the exact same process, except I don't think the law was ever unreliable. In other words, the law was always the law. God just set it aside for a moment.

But I would test, and retest, and retest. If it failed repeat ability once, I would say that there was an unaccounted variable. It'st that, for me, one of the possibilities for variability would be God's direct action. All I'm doing is allowing one more variable than you. Same scientific process, and it should work just as well.
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But your variable is one that cannot be tested nor repeated to achieve the same result.
 
#166
#166
MaxamusXIII said:
Sure.
The G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (YHWH) is the G-d I believe in. Some claim this but their belief is inconsistent with Him.
G-d gave us Torah to be a blessing to those who love him and a curse to those who don't. Torah is commonly known as "the law" but should more accurately be known as the standard. YHWH is self described as the unchanging creator and father of Knowledge. To find a Mike drop speach by G-d you can read the "where were you speach when I...." in the book of Job.
I find it inconsistent that a G-d who describes Himself this way would choose to operate outside the rules He established for this universe.
I believe He could.....I just don't think He does.


OC.
I choose to live my life according to G-ds word Messiah is the fulfillment of Leviticus 4-5-6. It is that sacrifice and repentance that saves me. Everyone will be judged before G-d one day and they'll be there without excuse and all by themselves. Some will have Yeshua as their advocate some won't.
That's why I usually don't waste a lot of time telling others what sin is. They need to decide that for themselves. If they are not concerned enough to test and find out what they believe......well they can answer for that too......without me.

As for me and my house we will serve YHWH. And Yeshua Messiah whom He sent.
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Ok
 
#168
#168
MaxamusXIII said:
Sure.
The G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (YHWH) is the G-d I believe in. Some claim this but their belief is inconsistent with Him.
G-d gave us Torah to be a blessing to those who love him and a curse to those who don't. Torah is commonly known as "the law" but should more accurately be known as the standard. YHWH is self described as the unchanging creator and father of Knowledge. To find a Mike drop speach by G-d you can read the "where were you speach when I...." in the book of Job.
I find it inconsistent that a G-d who describes Himself this way would choose to operate outside the rules He established for this universe.
I believe He could.....I just don't think He does.


OC.
I choose to live my life according to G-ds word Messiah is the fulfillment of Leviticus 4-5-6. It is that sacrifice and repentance that saves me. Everyone will be judged before G-d one day and they'll be there without excuse and all by themselves. Some will have Yeshua as their advocate some won't.
That's why I usually don't waste a lot of time telling others what sin is. They need to decide that for themselves. If they are not concerned enough to test and find out what they believe......well they can answer for that too......without me.

As for me and my house we will serve YHWH. And Yeshua Messiah whom He sent.
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This is very interesting. I do not have much knowledge of the Torah. What place does the Torah have within your faith vs. that of the Bible? Also, what particular branch of Judaism do you practice?
 
#169
#169
Orange_Crush said:
Let me shortcut this for the sake of tone. Isaac Newton. Hr believed in miracles. Was the scientific process useless for him?
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Whether he believed in miracles or not is irrelevant to me. If God suspends the physical rules whenever he sees fit the value of physical laws is diminished.
 
#170
#170
Orange_Crush said:
Let me shortcut this for the sake of tone. Isaac Newton. Hr believed in miracles. Was the scientific process useless for him?
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Most modern technology could be equated to Magic if not understood.
For example my phone charges on the dashboard of my truck without being plugged in.

That's freaking magic
 
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#172
#172
ClearwaterVol said:
Whether he believed in miracles or not is irrelevant to me. If God suspends the physical rules whenever he sees fit the value of physical laws is diminished.
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I disagree.

And it has everything to do with it. He believed in miracles yet still practiced the scientific process well. He studied science because of God's attributes yet didn't attribute everything he tested to God's direct actions. Weird huh?
 
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#173
#173
MaxamusXIII said:
https://aeon.co/ideas/why-religion-is-not-going-away-and-science-will-not-destroy-it

It has always been my opinion that The creator is a G-d of laws. Commonly referred to as Torah.
It would make sense that the creation would be based on a natural law.
In my opinion when scripture and science don't agree there are one of two problems 1) misinterpreting scripture/ adding things that are not there. Ex: "the world is 7000 years old" or 2) science hasn't progressed to answer the question.

The article seems to suggest that secularism is problem for science. This is a line of thinking I hadn't previously considered.

So who is worse for the progress of science....religion or secularism?
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Now that it's 700+ years old, the Bible needs a rewrite. Of course there wasn't an Adam and Eve. Of course Moses wasn't 700. Of course no one built an ark that held two of every animal on earth.

Science has disproved a lot of the Old Testament, not that it needed to. I think that Christians should focus on the teachings of Christ, and not the foundations of Islam and Judaism.
 
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#174
#174
UGADawg4Life said:
Now that it's 700+ years old, the Bible needs a rewrite. Of course there wasn't an Adam and Eve. Of course Moses wasn't 700. Of course no one built an ark that held two of every animal on earth.

Science has disproved a lot of the Old Testament, not that it needed to. I think that Christians should focus on the teachings of Christ, and not the foundations of Islam and Judaism.
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Yeshua/ Jesus was a Torah teaching Rabbi so........
 
#175
#175
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