To Protect and to Serve II

#3,952
#3,952
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
This is robbery.

https://twitter.com/moreno/status/906764058375766016
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They didn't need to take his money. I'm sure what they did was legal, but all they had to do was write a citation. I understand why vendors that don't have permits are an issue, especially when it comes to food safety. On the plus side, $30,000 has been raised for the guy, so hopefully the people that set up the GoFundMe for him actually give him the money.
 
#3,953
#3,953
davethevol said:
They didn't need to take his money. I'm sure what they did was legal, but all they had to do was write a citation. I understand why vendors that don't have permits are an issue, especially when it comes to food safety. On the plus side, $30,000 has been raised for the guy, so hopefully the people that set up the GoFundMe for him actually give him the money.
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Meh, there are plenty of licensed establishments that I know of that are no better than a street vendor in Mumbai. Let the guy sell his food and leave him alone.

Aren't there some killers, thieves or banksters that these cops can arrest?
 
#3,955
#3,955
Rasputin_Vol said:
Meh, there are plenty of licensed establishments that I know of that are no better than a street vendor in Mumbai. Let the guy sell his food and leave him alone.

Aren't there some killers, thieves or banksters that these cops can arrest?
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They're campus cops, they have nothing better to do other than bring in revenue and try to be Billy Bad Azzes to a street vendor that probably was an illegal.
 
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#3,960
#3,960
Policeman shoots and kills disoriented young person with knife.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/18/us/ge...091817georgia-tech-student-killed1215PMVODtop

YET another example of how poorly trained and fearful the police are. We should not be killing people having a mental episode, even if they have a knife. Are you telling me there are not alternative methods to disabling someone? There are--but our cops are just too fearful or poorly training to use them. This has happened a LOT over the years. Our cops are clueless when it comes to dealing more wisely with physical threats.
 
#3,961
#3,961
armchair said:
Policeman shoots and kills disoriented young person with knife.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/18/us/ge...091817georgia-tech-student-killed1215PMVODtop

YET another example of how poorly trained and fearful the police are. We should not be killing people having a mental episode, even if they have a knife. Are you telling me there are not alternative methods to disabling someone? There are--but our cops are just too fearful or poorly training to use them. This has happened a LOT over the years. Our cops are clueless when it comes to dealing more wisely with physical threats.
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Sounds like suicide by cop. She was told repeatedly to drop the knife, and not only did she not drop it she made a step towards the police. This isn't a situation where the police are in the wrong.
 
#3,962
#3,962
davethevol said:
Sounds like suicide by cop. She was told repeatedly to drop the knife, and not only did she not drop it she made a step towards the police. This isn't a situation where the police are in the wrong.
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Particularly when there is more than one officer in play it seems like this would have been an awfully nice time for a tazer to brought into play.
 
#3,963
#3,963
armchair said:
Policeman shoots and kills disoriented young person with knife.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/18/us/ge...091817georgia-tech-student-killed1215PMVODtop

YET another example of how poorly trained and fearful the police are. We should not be killing people having a mental episode, even if they have a knife. Are you telling me there are not alternative methods to disabling someone? There are--but our cops are just too fearful or poorly training to use them. This has happened a LOT over the years. Our cops are clueless when it comes to dealing more wisely with physical threats.
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davethevol said:
Sounds like suicide by cop. She was told repeatedly to drop the knife, and not only did she not drop it she made a step towards the police. This isn't a situation where the police are in the wrong.
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hndog609 said:
Particularly when there is more than one officer in play it seems like this would have been an awfully nice time for a tazer to brought into play.
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A person armed with a knife can be on you from that distance in a second or less. You don't know they are having a "mental episode." And, what if you did know that?

They are still a threat. Its not like being in the midst of a mental crisis makes the knife any less dangerous. In fact, arguably, they might be more dangerous because they lack restraint.

Law enforcement officers are trained that, when faced with a person who is armed with a deadly weapon, and who represents a threat, you cannot take chances with less than lethal force because you might not survive it.

Cops are not trained, for example, to shoot them in the leg, or the arm, or anything similar. In hindsight, you can always come up with, what ifs? What if you tried a taser, a stun grenade, called for a counselor, etc. But that is not a realistic view of the situation, on the ground, as this person continues to advance despite being told to stop. Dave is correct.
 
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#3,964
#3,964
lawgator1 said:
A person armed with a knife can be on you from that distance in a second or less. You don't know they are having a "mental episode." And, what if you did know that?

They are still a threat. Its not like being in the midst of a mental crisis makes the knife any less dangerous. In fact, arguably, they might be more dangerous because they lack restraint.

Law enforcement officers are trained that, when faced with a person who is armed with a deadly weapon, and who represents a threat, you cannot take chances with less than lethal force because you might not survive it.

Cops are not trained, for example, to shoot them in the leg, or the arm, or anything similar. In hindsight, you can always come up with, what ifs? What if you tried a taser, a stun grenade, called for a counselor, etc. But that is not a realistic view of the situation, on the ground, as this person continues to advance despite being told to stop. Dave is correct.
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I'm totally familiar with the Tueller Drill and understand the ramifications. Note I was specific about multiple officers being a determining factor. Layered use of non-lethal backed by lethal force really does seem like a better course if available. This particular incident seems like it could have been an appropriate time for such tactics if the equipment/training had been made available.
 
#3,965
#3,965
I'm going with LG on this one. While tragic, it appears this was the goal of "their" of "them" or whatever pronoun Scout preferred.
 
#3,966
#3,966
davethevol said:
Sounds like suicide by cop. She was told repeatedly to drop the knife, and not only did she not drop it she made a step towards the police. This isn't a situation where the police are in the wrong.
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Again, we've posted several examples of cops taking down a civilian with a knife that do not end with gunfire and dead bodies.
 
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#3,967
#3,967
armchair said:
Policeman shoots and kills disoriented young person with knife.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/18/us/ge...091817georgia-tech-student-killed1215PMVODtop

YET another example of how poorly trained and fearful the police are. We should not be killing people having a mental episode, even if they have a knife. Are you telling me there are not alternative methods to disabling someone? There are--but our cops are just too fearful or poorly training to use them. This has happened a LOT over the years. Our cops are clueless when it comes to dealing more wisely with physical threats.
Click to expand...

Someone with a weapon screaming shoot me and wanting to die (you kinda left that part out), is definitely a risk of trying to kill or hurt the officer. While there are many stories where you can chance a taxer first, this isn't one.
 
#3,968
#3,968
joevol33 said:
Someone with a weapon screaming shoot me and wanting to die (you kinda left that part out), is definitely a risk of trying to kill or hurt the officer. While there are many stories where you can chance a taxer first, this isn't one.
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This person had tried to commit suicide in the past. It's obvious that they aren't mentally stable, but the cops don't have a clue about what someone does in the past. Totally justified in my opinion.
 
#3,969
#3,969
First, every police officer or security officer eligible to carry a weapon should be carrying a taser of some kind. It is crazy that in 2017 many if not most cops still only carry handguns, given that they are far more likely to need to subdue someone as opposed to shooting and killing them.

Second, if you are a cop and call in a report of somebody with a weapon, I'm pretty sure help will arrive pretty quickly--and meantime, there are things that can be done to mitigate the situation for a few minutes. You can talk to the disturbed person, you can clear the area, you can back away; you can, in short, stall until help arrives--but of course help would just be more cops inclined to pull out their guns.

Third, I find it incomprehensible that police officers are not trained to shoot a potential assailant in the leg. I'm PRETTY sure that shooting a knife-carrier in the leg would end the threat, as a bullet in the leg TENDS to be pretty painful and incapacitating. Why wouldn't this be a part of our police training, in a situation like this. I'm not suggesting that cops in a gunfight try to shoot an assailant in the leg; I'm suggesting if some disturbed person is standing 12 feet in front of you with a knife, shooting in the leg certainly seems like a viable option that would involve no loss of life. You know what's also incomprehensible: Let's say there were three cops and one disturbed kid with a knife (of some kind). If I were one of the three cops, I would be inclined to suggest to my fellow officers that we tackle the guy and subdue him--perhaps after one cop distracts him or somesuch. Would one or more of the officers risk getting stabbed? Yea, maybe--but they'd also be protecting the life of the mentally disturbed person. Alas, our cops do not think that way.

Fourth, cops deal with mental troubled people every day. Indeed, a large number of individual disturbances they deal with are people with mental problems. If a young person is standing in the public place in ratty clothes and no shoes and is holding a knife, it doesn't take a Ph.D. to know that he's probably having a mental episode. In fact, that is almost always the case. Rational people do not take weapons out in public.

Fifth, and I alluded to this above, being a police officer MEANS that you will probably experience threats. That's part of the deal of being a cop. And yet we have loads of cops who are absolutely terrified of getting hurt and this is a big reason why so many police needlessly shoot and kill people. I should think that a HUGE part of police training would focus on subduing people without loss of life, since incidents like this are very common. But apparently this isn't the case. If somebody has a weapon, cops tend to pull out their guns and shoot. Almost anybody with a gun can shoot somebody; I should think the point of having a well-trained police force is to try and avoid shooting unless it is absolutely necessary. I think our cops generally are trained not to take any chances, which, again, is risk averse strategy that doesn't require much training. This points up how unsophisticated our police training is, in my opinion. Cops would respond to all this by saying that shooting someone is the most efficient way to protect the public. Protecting the public is crucial--but what's being missed is that a disturbed person with a modest knife is the public too. He or she deserves to get mental help, not be shot and killed.

It is weird how primitive America is in so many ways, still. We have a reputation for being an "advanced" country and that isn't even remotely the case.
 
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#3,970
#3,970
armchair said:
First, every police officer or security officer eligible to carry a weapon should be carrying a taser of some kind. It is crazy that in 2017 many if not most cops still only carry handguns, given that they are far more likely to need to subdue someone as opposed to shooting and killing them.

Second, if you are a cop and call in a report of somebody with a weapon, I'm pretty sure help will arrive pretty quickly--and meantime, there are things that can be done to allay the situation from the start of the incident until help arrives. You can talk to the disturbed person, you can clear the area, you can back away; you can stall until help arrives--but of course that would just be more cops inclined to pull out their guns.

Third, I find it incomprehensible that police officers would not be trained to shoot a potential assailant in the leg. I'm PRETTY sure that shooting a knife-carrier in the leg would end the threat, as a bullet in the leg TENDS to be pretty painful and incapacitating. You know what's also incomprehensible: Let's say there were three cops and one disturbed kid with a knife (of some kind). If I were one of the three cops, I would be inclined to suggest to my fellow officers that we tackle the guy and subdue him--perhaps after one cop distracts him or somesuch. Would one or more of the officers risk getting stabbed? Yea, maybe--but they'd also be protecting the life of the mentally disturbed person. Alas, our cops do not think that way.

Fourth, cops deal with mental troubled people every day. Indeed, a large number of individual disturbances they deal with are people with mental problems. If a young person is standing in the public place in ratty clothes and no shoes and is holding a knife, it doesn't take a Ph.D. to know that he's probably having a mental episode. In fact, that is almost always the case. Rational people do not take weapons out in public.

Fifth, and I alluded to this above, being a police officer MEANS that you will probably experience threats. That's part of the deal of being a cop. And yet we have loads of cops who are absolutely terrified of getting hurt and this is a big reason why so many police needlessly shoot and kill people. I should think that a HUGE part of police training would focus on subduing people without loss of life, since incidents like this are very common. But apparently this isn't the case. If somebody has a weapon, cops tend to pull out their guns and shoot. Almost anybody with a gun can shoot somebody; I should think the point of having a well-trained police force is to try and avoid shooting unless it is absolutely necessary. I think our cops generally are trained not to take any chances, which, again, is risk averse strategy that doesn't require much training. This points up how unsophisticated our police training is, in my opinion.

It is weird how primitive America is in so many ways, still. We have a reputation for being an "advanced" country and that isn't even remotely the case.
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Lol Hi Ho Silver!!! Shoot 'em in the leg!!

You've never even shot a cap gun.... gtfo
 
#3,973
#3,973
Rasputin_Vol said:
What about using bolas at the legs? That is another non-lethal tactic that has been used outside of the US.
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Blow darts with tranqulizing drops on the end.

Hypnosis.

Sing a soothing song.

Shoot knife out of hand like Clint Eastwood movie.

All good options when a person with a knife is advancing on you, like three or four times, after call they are wandering around campus armed.
 
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#3,974
#3,974
Rasputin_Vol said:
What about using bolas at the legs? That is another non-lethal tactic that has been used outside of the US.
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You want cops to carry around those things on a daily basis? As well as the training required to use such a tool? It ain't as easy as the movies portray.

A Taser is far more effective provided it can be used. However, even those are getting blamed for accidental deaths.
 
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