The Liberal Argument for a Higher Minimum Wage

[MT LeConte]

OK, this is a Liberal on a Liberal talk show making the Liberal argument for a higher minimum wage. It does however pretty much sums up the Liberal reasoning on this subject. I would very much appreciate hearing the conservatives here rebut the argument.

I thought I would post this as things are a little slow around the political forum.

Please, if you have a comment at least watch the video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTNXzQZD-wY

 

[malinoisvol]

7min22sec video. Nick Hanauer(?sp) with Bill Marher (?sp).

Why don't we raise the minimum wage too a $100 an hour? Why have those cities and states that have jumped on the $15 an hour band wagon, chose too raise it incrementally over a long period of time and not immediately?

 

[apevol]

OK, I'll take $100/hr

 

[W.TN.Orange Blood]

OK, I'll take $100/hr

If you're a medical doctor working in the ER....sure.

 

[apevol]

If you're a medical doctor working in the ER....sure.

Ok, I'll cut you open for $100/hr

 

[IPleadInsanity]

The problem is the untenable amount of unskilled workers in the marketplace, not the minimum wage. Like repairing a broken bone with rubbing alcohol! Why is this country creating so many unskilled workers?

 

[apevol]

The problem is the untenable amount of unskilled workers in the marketplace, not the minimum wage. Like repairing a broken bone with rubbing alcohol! Why is this country creating so many unskilled workers?

Because we obsoleted semiskilled professions

 

[tumscalcium]

The problem is the untenable amount of unskilled workers in the marketplace, not the minimum wage. Like repairing a broken bone with rubbing alcohol! Why is this country creating so many unskilled workers?

What Ape mentioned and we reward unskilled workers.

 

[apevol]

What Ape mentioned and we reward unskilled workers.

We don't reward unskilled workers. We reward bad/non workers.

 

[tumscalcium]

We don't reward unskilled workers. We reward bad/non workers.

Yes we do.

We also reward bad decision makers.

 

[tumscalcium]

By doubling the minimum wage the cost of everything goes up. The "poor" now will be "poor" later. Those getting f'd the most will be middle folk. Again.

 

[volinbham]

1. He makes a claim that there is zero evidence that if wages rise; jobs go down. That is false. There is plenty of economics showing that employers simply cannot raise pay across the board and not have to reduce the size of the work force.

If this claim were true why would $15 be the magic number?

2. He roasts trickle down economics as a hoax but bases his entire argument on the assumption that paying people more all goes back into the economy such that companies then make so much more money that the impact is neutralized.

This is every bit as much an assumption as trickle down is.

3. Claims we subsidize company's workers. Simply not true and at $15/hr this would not change.

4. Mahrers contention that low wage earners can only eat crap food thus increasing our healthcare costs is also not true. People do have choices AND there is nothing to indicate if someone went from $9/hr to $15/hr they'd suddenly make different food choices.

5. Mahrer claims if McDs was really going to go automation then they would have already - that simply ignores cost of operation decisions. At $15/hr the capital investment for automation makes business sense. At current wages it does not.

6. The both conflate absolute corporate profits (McDs makes billions) with unit level costs and profitability. There may be some room to raise wages without losing all profitability but at the individual store level the margins are pretty thin. This is particularly true at grocery store levels where margins are in the low single digits. Changing labor costs substantially means loss of all profitability OR raising prices.

7. Both completely ignore the impact of inflation. They act as if businesses will not have to raise prices to to pay higher wages. This is a glaring deficiency in the argument.

8. Back to point 1 - the dude claims that arguing that raising wages will negatively impact job growth is not only not true but it is an intimidation tactic! Honestly this is out of bounds. Plenty of economists objectively believe this to be true and plenty of economic research supports it. To claim it is simply a way to preserve power and screw the poor is despicable to me. It shows why debate is dead in this country. Ironically, he's using the very tactics he complains about to win an argument.

9. In line with #8 - the argument here assumes that anyone opposing $15/hr is trying to screw people. It's a grand conspiracy theory. Ignore economics, assume raising the wages of employees has no impact on prices, # of jobs, job displacement, etc. and demonize anyone who disagrees.

 

[apevol]

Yes we do.

We also reward bad decision makers.

There are a lot of people being paid to do skilled work who are just passing that work on to people who get paid as unskilled. Its horse****.

 

[volinbham]

I'm personally not against raising the minimum wage some (assuming we have to have a minimum wage) but I'm not persuaded by the liberal argument (if that video embodies it).

 

[volinbham]

Damn you Whole Foods - you are ruining the argument

Whole Foods' 365 Concept Stores Coming This Month -- Here's What to Watch -- The Motley Fool

However, these 365 concept stores seem to be an option for Whole Foods to start being more competitive in a now crowded space. The refreshing concept could help to drive new interest, and lower prices for consumers could drive more overall sales. But especially helpful for Whole Foods' bottom line is that these stores will have lower operating costs.

Everything about these 365 stores is meant to be simpler, which should help Whole Foods to cut costs. Each store will be smaller than parent stores, which will mean less spent on leases and other land operating costs. Because the stores are more of a standard design, they can be developed with less cost compared to the unique design of many parent stores, and Whole Foods can also get them up and running faster.

The stores are planned to have just around 100 employees who are all cross-trained for various roles, as opposed to parent stores that have 250 to 500 employees. They will be helped by tech upgrades like electronic checkouts, and a dedicated smartphone app about wine that customers can use instead of consulting a sommelier on staff.

 

[volinbham]

Economic growth - real economic growth is the best route to higher wages and standard of living.

Thinking you can use the force of the government to shave profits from evil companies and give them to employees simply isn't a sustainable pathway.

 

[Orangedogsrule]

First thing I hear is, "If I care about this country..." then I have to take the speakers' position on thus and such. So then, conversely, if I don't take his position, I don't care about my country?!

Logical falacy in his opening sentence. Screw dat.

Then I hear Bill M. say, "If McDonald's could do mechanical servers they already would have".

The famous Automat restaurants of last century attest to the fact it can be done. Modern tech only makes it much more feasable. Sure fast food can be ordered and delivered automatically.

 

[CardsNVols]

Personally, I don't believe in the concept of a minimum wage, period. In an ideal world, we would have an intelligent enough workforce to understand where they fall on the totem pole in terms of skill and market value. In addition to not crippling small businesses that can't afford to pay >$10/hour, it would also give larger businesses more incentive to actually compete for good workers, even the low skilled ones. (And yes, there are some excellent low-skilled workers who would stand out and be able to build themselves up over time).

This is one area that I wish the government would stay out of, particularly the federal government. $15/hour is a hell of a lot different in Northern Mississippi than it is in New York City.

 

[MT LeConte]

Growing up my teachers and parents often would state that all work is honorable. "An honest days work for an honest days pay". There are now a lot of people putting in an honest days work but getting short changed on the honest pay. How honorable can one feel working full time yet needing subsistence to feed and clothe the family? If Wally and McD were on the brink of collapse perhaps one could buy into their argument. But they're not on the brink and are actually quite financially healthy. They are fighting minimum wage only out of greed . Sure, I agree they have the right to do it. But should they?

I don't agree that it would hurt startups and small businesses. IMO, and it is only an opinion, having millions of workers making a living wage would be a benefit to those small businesses .

 

[VolnJC]

I honestly don't hate the idea if these other things happened....

1) we gotta get some of the loads who are on disability back to work..there is a direct correlation to the people who came off public aid that went on disability

2) force the unemployed to search for work and provide incentives for employers (govt pays 1/2 of wages for six months) and

3) end earned income credit

I honestly think that employers would do a good job of absorbing these costs without raising prices too much

http://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/

 

[W.TN.Orange Blood]

Ok, I'll cut you open for $100/hr

They wouldn't allow an ape to be in the ER. Nice try.

 

[FLVOL_79]

9 seconds in and I immediately know the guest is a freaking moron..thanking occupy and fast food workers. Yep.

Raising the minimum wage just raises the poverty threshold, that is all. It doesn't help anyone get out of poverty.

The guy blames everyone but the workers for their wages. This is America. If you are poor its most likely your own damn fault.

They talk about poor people eating like garbage. How many times has a nice grocery store tried to move into an area only to be rebuked because it raises property values? Or it just becomes such a cesspool it eventually closes. Again..its the people to blame.

Couldnt watch the rest because the guest was awful.

 

[FLVOL_79]

Growing up my teachers and parents often would state that all work is honorable. "An honest days work for an honest days pay". There are now a lot of people putting in an honest days work but getting short changed on the honest pay. How honorable can one feel working full time yet needing subsistence to feed and clothe the family? If Wally and McD were on the brink of collapse perhaps one could buy into their argument. But they're not on the brink and are actually quite financially healthy. They are fighting minimum wage only out of greed . Sure, I agree they have the right to do it. But should they?

I don't agree that it would hurt startups and small businesses. IMO, and it is only an opinion, having millions of workers making a living wage would be a benefit to those small businesses .

Example?

Just because you "work hard" or "work honestly" doesn't mean you are going to get pay to reflect that. Thats like saying "life is fair". It ain't.

You get paid what you are worth to an organization.

 

[FLVOL_79]

First thing I hear is, "If I care about this country..." then I have to take the speakers' position on thus and such. So then, conversely, if I don't take his position, I don't care about my country?!

Logical falacy in his opening sentence. Screw dat.

Then I hear Bill M. say, "If McDonald's could do mechanical servers they already would have".

The famous Automat restaurants of last century attest to the fact it can be done. Modern tech only makes it much more feasable. Sure fast food can be ordered and delivered automatically.

They are in Asia. Thats what these mongrels don't get. Minimum wage service industry jobs are going to disappear. In 100 years most won't even exist anymore.

 

[MT LeConte]

Example?

Just because you "work hard" or "work honestly" doesn't mean you are going to get pay to reflect that. Thats like saying "life is fair". It ain't.

You get paid what you are worth to an organization.

Life not being fair is when one person is born blind and the other one has 20/20. Rigging the labor force simply because you have the money power is not an example of "life" being unfair it is example of cheating a person out of money That's why laws are needed to balance the playing field i.e. the minimum wage laws.