Edward Snowden: American Hero

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#1,278
German spies imply Snowden leaked files for Russia - The Local

Head of Germany's domestic spy agency basically all but directly stated today that Snowden has always been a mere Russian pawn.

Whether or not Snowden was acting nobly was only a question for me for about a week or two after his story broke. If you see what documents he released, follow his trail, and read analysis from actual "spy-spies" and intelligence analysts on him, it becomes immediately clear he did not act out of any nobility or service to the American people.

The only question that now remains for me is why the US government continues to avoid actually labeling him for what he is and has always been: a Russian SVR agent. Are we concerned that doing so will make us look even worse, especially given some of our recent intelligence follies? Or are we concerned that doing so will add "credibility" to the "Snowden: American Hero" line, since it may make it look like the American govt. is merely trying to save itself through a common smear campaign?

This official refusal to call a spade a spade baffles me.
 
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#1,279
If Snowden was indeed a Russian spy and it's so abundantly clear, why the hell would he ever want to come back to the US? If he gets pardoned for the NSA leaks, sounds like he still has a history of spying on us that he could be tried for.
 
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n_huffhines said:
If Snowden was indeed a Russian spy and it's so abundantly clear, why the hell would he ever want to come back to the US? If he gets pardoned for the NSA leaks, sounds like he still has a history of spying on us that he could be tried for.
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In August of 1939, the German and Russian foreign ministers signed a treaty-alliance with one another. Just two years later, the armed forces of one of those signatories was just 40 miles outside of Moscow.

Point being: just because someone says something doesn't mean they actually intend it.
 
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#1,282
I still don't think he was a spy for Russia. I think that now his country has turned its back on him, he most likely gives Russia intelligence in exchange for not torturing him or handing him over to the US.
 
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#1,283
davethevol said:
I still don't think he was a spy for Russia. I think that now his country has turned its back on him, he most likely gives Russia intelligence in exchange for not torturing him or handing him over to the US.
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There's a reason why all of those Nazi scholars and scientist were excluded from the witch hunt following WW2..
 
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#1,284
davethevol said:
I still don't think he was a spy for Russia. I think that now his country has turned its back on him, he most likely gives Russia intelligence in exchange for not torturing him or handing him over to the US.
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I seriously recommend anyone who has yet to read various intelligence people's take on Snowden to do so. These are people who are highly familiar with how spying works, how spies operate, and how nations present false representations to other nations and/or to the masses to cover the tracks of their spies.

If you look at Snowden's documents, only a handful actually concern matters that most Americans might be alarmed by. (Not that it was news to me, because I just assume that practically every govt. around the globe, save a few, spy on their people to some degree.) This was just enough to create the facade - that he was a noble whistleblower and no traitor. The vast majority of these documents, however, concern American spying on European nations, most of whom with which we're allied, and Western intelligence operations regarding monitoring and tracking of potential threats. Not coincidentally, many analysts will also tell you that the information Snowden realized has devastated Western intelligence agencies' abilities to target, track, and arrest terrorists.

Severing ties between the US and its European allies and complicating Western nations' counter-terrorism capabilities, now I wonder. Who? Who could possibly stand to benefit from such a thing? What nation is there in this world that might possibly stand to benefit from the release of such information? I'm struggling here. Can you help me?

This is just how spying works, folks. This is nothing new, although I will grant that the Snowden phenomenon, as it has become, has a unique character, in that he's one of the few spies - perhaps outside of Anna Chapman, another Russian darling - to gain celebrity status. Of this, I can only apportion blame to social media and the 24/7 news cycle, where practically anyone can now become a celebrity.
 
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#1,285
volprof said:
I seriously recommend anyone who has yet to read various intelligence people's take on Snowden to do so. These are people who are highly familiar with how spying works, how spies operate, and how nations present false representations to other nations and/or to the masses to cover the tracks of their spies.

If you look at Snowden's documents, only a handful actually concern matters that most Americans might be alarmed by. (Not that it was news to me, because I just assume that practically every govt. around the globe, save a few, spy on their people to some degree.) This was just enough to create the facade - that he was a noble whistleblower and no traitor. The vast majority of these documents, however, concern American spying on European nations, most of whom with which we're allied, and Western intelligence operations regarding monitoring and tracking of potential threats. Not coincidentally, many analysts will also tell you that the information Snowden realized has devastated Western intelligence agencies' abilities to target, track, and arrest terrorists.

Severing ties between the US and its European allies and complicating Western nations' counter-terrorism capabilities, now I wonder. Who? Who could possibly stand to benefit from such a thing? What nation is there in this world that might possibly stand to benefit from the release of such information? I'm struggling here. Can you help me?

This is just how spying works, folks. This is nothing new, although I will grant that the Snowden phenomenon, as it has become, has a unique character, in that he's one of the few spies - perhaps outside of Anna Chapman, another Russian darling - to gain celebrity status. Of this, I can only apportion blame to social media and the 24/7 news cycle, where practically anyone can now become a celebrity.
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But.... But.... He's stil a hero because.... Say the simpletons
 
#1,287
#1,287
volprof said:
I seriously recommend anyone who has yet to read various intelligence people's take on Snowden to do so. These are people who are highly familiar with how spying works, how spies operate, and how nations present false representations to other nations and/or to the masses to cover the tracks of their spies.

If you look at Snowden's documents, only a handful actually concern matters that most Americans might be alarmed by. (Not that it was news to me, because I just assume that practically every govt. around the globe, save a few, spy on their people to some degree.) This was just enough to create the facade - that he was a noble whistleblower and no traitor. The vast majority of these documents, however, concern American spying on European nations, most of whom with which we're allied, and Western intelligence operations regarding monitoring and tracking of potential threats. Not coincidentally, many analysts will also tell you that the information Snowden realized has devastated Western intelligence agencies' abilities to target, track, and arrest terrorists.

Severing ties between the US and its European allies and complicating Western nations' counter-terrorism capabilities, now I wonder. Who? Who could possibly stand to benefit from such a thing? What nation is there in this world that might possibly stand to benefit from the release of such information? I'm struggling here. Can you help me?

This is just how spying works, folks. This is nothing new, although I will grant that the Snowden phenomenon, as it has become, has a unique character, in that he's one of the few spies - perhaps outside of Anna Chapman, another Russian darling - to gain celebrity status. Of this, I can only apportion blame to social media and the 24/7 news cycle, where practically anyone can now become a celebrity.
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Are these the same intelligence officials who claim Apple is devastating their ability to target, track, and arrest terrorist?

If Snowden is an actual Russian spy, then this is the saddest thing ever for America. That only a Russian was willing to release this information to the American people. It's a sad day when we have to reply on Russians to protect American liberties.
 
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#1,288
All of you who think Snowden is a traitor:

Where's your distain for the politicians who authorized this? You know, the real traitors who broke the law and should be hung for their treason.
 
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#1,289
#1,289
volprof said:
I seriously recommend anyone who has yet to read various intelligence people's take on Snowden to do so. These are people who are highly familiar with how spying works, how spies operate, and how nations present false representations to other nations and/or to the masses to cover the tracks of their spies.

If you look at Snowden's documents, only a handful actually concern matters that most Americans might be alarmed by. (Not that it was news to me, because I just assume that practically every govt. around the globe, save a few, spy on their people to some degree.) This was just enough to create the facade - that he was a noble whistleblower and no traitor. The vast majority of these documents, however, concern American spying on European nations, most of whom with which we're allied, and Western intelligence operations regarding monitoring and tracking of potential threats. Not coincidentally, many analysts will also tell you that the information Snowden realized has devastated Western intelligence agencies' abilities to target, track, and arrest terrorists.

Severing ties between the US and its European allies and complicating Western nations' counter-terrorism capabilities, now I wonder. Who? Who could possibly stand to benefit from such a thing? What nation is there in this world that might possibly stand to benefit from the release of such information? I'm struggling here. Can you help me?

This is just how spying works, folks. This is nothing new, although I will grant that the Snowden phenomenon, as it has become, has a unique character, in that he's one of the few spies - perhaps outside of Anna Chapman, another Russian darling - to gain celebrity status. Of this, I can only apportion blame to social media and the 24/7 news cycle, where practically anyone can now become a celebrity.
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All our allies spy on us too. That's never been a secret. The allies might put up a show and act butt hurt about it, but they all know what goes on. What wasnt known was the extent our government was spying on us and breaking our laws to do so. You might be right, I just haven't come to that conclusion at this time.
 
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#1,290
Vol8188 said:
All of you who think Snowden is a traitor:

Where's your distain for the politicians who authorized this? You know, the real traitors who broke the law and should be hung for their treason.
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I do think Snowden is a traitor while at the same time harboring complete distain for the politicians.
 
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#1,291
hog88 said:
I do think Snowden is a traitor while at the same time harboring complete distain for the politicians.
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Where's the vocal outcall from the people for their blood? I've seen plenty who want Snowden dead. The politicians are the real traitors.
 
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#1,294
Vol8188 said:
Are these the same intelligence officials who claim Apple is devastating their ability to target, track, and arrest terrorist?
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No.

This is a good start: https://20committee.com/2015/07/19/the-painful-truth-about-snowden/

If Snowden is an actual Russian spy, then this is the saddest thing ever for America. That only a Russian was willing to release this information to the American people. It's a sad day when we have to reply on Russians to protect American liberties.
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It's a sad state of affairs, no matter how you cut it, but here's the thing: liberal democracies are already at an inherent disadvantage when it comes to monitoring and prosecuting domestic security threats in an era of globalization, where people and goods move around the Earth in manners previously unimaginable. The authors of the Constitution could not have anticipated globalization, the Internet, modern terror, dirty bombs, social media, and other satellite communications. Should liberal democracies, like the US, not be allowed to use methods, even ones beyond the pale, to solve such matters?

While I tend to think the Constitution best left alone provided no problem currently exists, I also realize that fighting security threats in a modern liberal democracy has to be the most difficult task any nation has, besides providing enough jobs to its people. It is already hamstrung.

It is a thin line, and one that I'm sure often gets transgressed, but, when it comes to Hero Version Snowden (and not Russian Spy Version Snowden), what we're really asking is whether or not liberal democracies are allowed to have secrets.

As far as the politicians that authorize such behavior, I think of them about how I think of Snowden: what was their motivation? As far as the practices that were revealed are concerned, as I've stated before, I do not mind extrajudicial monitoring practices to target threats when they have legitimately been deemed threats. To give an example: a known radical having his phone monitored without having to get a court order every time? Fine. A regular Joe, suspected of terrorist sympathies but with no direct proof, having his phone monitored? Not fine. Monitoring a mosque that has an unusual amount of members that have traveled for the global jihad without being hamstrung by court orders? Fine. Monitoring random mosques? Not fine.
 
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#1,295
#1,295
You're basically asking should spying on your citizens be accepted to protect us from scary Muslims. And the answer is simple: it's not the governments job to protect you. That's why we aren't supposed to even have a standing army. It's your job to protect yourself and your family.
 
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#1,296
Vol8188 said:
You're basically asking should spying on your citizens be accepted to protect us from scary Muslims. And the answer is simple: it's not the governments job to protect you. That's why we aren't supposed to even have a standing army. It's your job to protect yourself and your family.
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It's good to have you back 88..... Things were getting too logical around here
 
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#1,297
#1,297
Vol8188 said:
You're basically asking should spying on your citizens be accepted to protect us from scary Muslims. And the answer is simple: it's not the governments job to protect you. That's why we aren't supposed to even have a standing army. It's your job to protect yourself and your family.
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There are two types of people in this world: pragmatists and purists.

Neither is perfect; both have their flaws. The biggest difference between the two, however, besides their approach, is that when the pragmatists are wrong, a few people get killed. When the purists get it wrong, scores of people get killed.

I'm a pragmatist, and we're in the business of keeping as many people alive as possible. The purists can keep their purity. I'll keep mine and my family's lives.
 
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#1,298
late and probably off topic but the Snowden issue to me is do we as citizens have a voice in the debate about what we authorize our government to do.

I'm along the pragmatist line as expressed by VP but I think the "Snowden favor" was letting the citizenry know just what the government was up to. Doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.
 
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#1,299
volinbham said:
late and probably off topic but the Snowden issue to me is do we as citizens have a voice in the debate about what we authorize our government to do.

I'm along the pragmatist line as expressed by VP but I think the "Snowden favor" was letting the citizenry know just what the government was up to. Doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.
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It 100% means we shouldn't do it. Get a warrant. Follow the constitution.
 
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