Seriously, Is Being too Good Really So Bad?

[madtownvol]

I'm sorry, but it's the elephant in the room no one wants to discuss.

"Not caring" is the biggest reason for this kind of dominance. That and Pat Summit leaving the game.

Look at college softball. A sport dominated by the Pac 10. Alabama, Florida and Tennessee put out good teams 10 years ago, but that was about it. Michigan has always been good. Then, the other schools in the SEC decided to give a damn. Now, the SEC is the power conference in college softball. The Pac 10 has been left in the dust. It happened that fast.

It's not a coincidence that women's basketball is a sport where a school in a state where 10 people live (none of whom are athletes) can all of a sudden dominate a sport. Connecticut is a pitiful athletic program. Jim Calhoun built a basketball program. I don't know how he did it, but he did it. Along came Geno and we know the rest there. They are not nationally relevant in anything else they do.

Do you really believe if the power schools that dominate the landscape in so many other athletic endeavors put their love and money into it that they couldn't put teams out there that could compete with UConn. I think they could.

But, schools like Ohio State don't care. Not really. They make the tournament every year. Sometimes, they win the Big 10. No big deal. Put them on the 50 yard line during the homecoming football game and congratulate them for winning the Big 10 so they get a golf clap from the capacity crowd. This is a program that would be described, by the way, as a quality women's basketball program. But, there isn't an "arms race" to beat Connecticut. There aren't programs across the country who are tired of this and by God, we're going to put an end to it if it's the last thing we do. That's not happening.

That's one of the things I admire about this board. Tennessee, and their fans, do care. At least a decent percentage of them. They want to get back to where they were. They want to keep Geno from obtaining greater glory than Pat. etc, etc, etc. Tennessee fans care.

And before someone mentions it, yes, it was one of the reasons that John Wooden and UCLA accomplished what they did. There were a lot of athletic programs that didn't care about men's basketball at the time. Several schools had their football coach also as their athletic director. It was a totally different era. Beyond that, no shot clock, no 3 point shot, and other rules aided UCLA's run. But, among the top reasons was that there were a hell of a lot less schools trying to compete for championships. They beat the Jacksonville University Dolphins for the NCAA championship one season for crying out loud

Actually, several schools in the SEC (the LVs, USC, Georgia, KY, and LSU--though the latter has little to show of late) have placed an emphasis on WCBB and paying coaches relatively good salaries. Notre Dame, Texas, several schools in the Pac10 have all made commitments.

Basketball, unlike football does not demand a massive infrastructure; it basically comes down to coaches and players; and the quality of those factors tend to correlate.

So, given all that, different emphases by Athletic Directors does not explain the gap that Uconn has over the programs that are trying. [In the world of men's basketball, you might recall how Butler upset many of the power schools when Brad Stevens was the HC; or what Mark Few has been able to do at Gonzaga.

 

[Defaultuser]

Actually, several schools in the SEC (the LVs, USC, Georgia, KY, and LSU--though the latter has little to show of late) have placed an emphasis on WCBB and paying coaches relatively good salaries. Notre Dame, Texas, several schools in the Pac10 have all made commitments.

Basketball, unlike football does not demand a massive infrastructure; it basically comes down to coaches and players; and the quality of those factors tend to correlate.

So, given all that, different emphases by Athletic Directors does not explain the gap that Uconn has over the programs that are trying. [In the world of men's basketball, you might recall how Butler upset many of the power schools when Brad Stevens was the HC; or what Mark Few has been able to do at Gonzaga.

Those schools you listed from the SEC care a LOT more about gymnastics than WCBB.

 

[99gator]

Actually, several schools in the SEC (the LVs, USC, Georgia, KY, and LSU--though the latter has little to show of late) have placed an emphasis on WCBB and paying coaches relatively good salaries. Notre Dame, Texas, several schools in the Pac10 have all made commitments.

Basketball, unlike football does not demand a massive infrastructure; it basically comes down to coaches and players; and the quality of those factors tend to correlate.

So, given all that, different emphases by Athletic Directors does not explain the gap that Uconn has over the programs that are trying. [In the world of men's basketball, you might recall how Butler upset many of the power schools when Brad Stevens was the HC; or what Mark Few has been able to do at Gonzaga.

I understand all of that. But, there's a big difference between 25 schools trying to truly compete and 100.

For several of the small schools, men's basketball is their revenue generator. That's just not the case in women's basketball. You also have the top talent in the men's game consistently leaving school early to play professionally. Another problem that doesn't exist in the women's game. In the women's game, the #1 overall pick of the WNBA draft stays through their senior year.

If 100+ schools were truly trying to compete and Geno saw half his team leave for the WNBA draft every year, Connecticut might not be enjoying the same level of success.

 

[madtownvol]

I understand all of that. But, there's a big difference between 25 schools trying to truly compete and 100.

For several of the small schools, men's basketball is their revenue generator. That's just not the case in women's basketball. You also have the top talent in the men's game consistently leaving school early to play professionally. Another problem that doesn't exist in the women's game. In the women's game, the #1 overall pick of the WNBA draft stays through their senior year.

If 100+ schools were truly trying to compete and Geno saw half his team leave for the WNBA draft every year, Connecticut might not be enjoying the same level of success.

I guess that I have lost the point here. Yes, men's basketball is a very different context that presents a different set of demands from the women's game. But look at KY, the team which best exemplifies the process of rebuilding every year and relying on high ranked one and done players. Admittedly, this year was a down one for KY but Calipari has managed to keep KY in the FF for most seasons.

But the economics of the WNBA is just not likely to draw many top women's players into the early graduation ranks (though Europe might start being more of a lure).

Can we imagine possible worlds where Uconn is not so dominant,. sure. But in this world and this set of constraints, they are setting the standard.

 

[99gator]

I guess that I have lost the point here. Yes, men's basketball is a very different context that presents a different set of demands from the women's game. But look at KY, the team which best exemplifies the process of rebuilding every year and relying on high ranked one and done players. Admittedly, this year was a down one for KY but Calipari has managed to keep KY in the FF for most seasons.

But the economics of the WNBA is just not likely to draw many top women's players into the early graduation ranks (though Europe might start being more of a lure).

Can we imagine possible worlds where Uconn is not so dominant,. sure. But in this world and this set of constraints, they are setting the standard.

I didn't think UConn setting the standard was in dispute.

What was in dispute is....why?

I have argued that there are a few reasons, among them is that Geno is really, really damn good.

However, the greatest reason, IMO, is that most of the schools fielding a women's college basketball team are not passionately invested in their program's success. Whether it be coach's salaries, recruiting budgets, facilities, alumni support, etc, etc, etc.

The vast majority of people don't care that they can't compete with UConn.

IMO, that's the single biggest factor.

 

[Franklin Pierce]

Viva Lady Vols!

Screw UCONN!

 

[teacherdean]

I didn't think UConn setting the standard was in dispute.

What was in dispute is....why?

I have argued that there are a few reasons, among them is that Geno is really, really damn good.

However, the greatest reason, IMO, is that most of the schools fielding a women's college basketball team are not passionately invested in their program's success. Whether it be coach's salaries, recruiting budgets, facilities, alumni support, etc, etc, etc.

The vast majority of people don't care that they can't compete with UConn.

IMO, that's the single biggest factor.

You get it, that is the biggest reason is on top. Most colleges and universities pay four times more attention to winning men's championships then they do winning women's championships. It is ashame but unfortunately that is the way it is. As I have said a lot of administrators view title 9 as an albatross that they wish could be avoided.

 

[UCMiami]

I think you just have to look at this FF and the three debutants who between them have I believe a total of THREE AAs to realize that great coaching with a supportive administration does actually make a difference in sports and particularly in WCBB. These three teams took out a series of teams with 'more talent' by AA standards and by pundit standards and by NCAA committee standards because they play great basketball at home and on opponent's home courts and are coached well and trust their teammates and their system.

Yes Uconn is dominant as a direct result of recruiting Breanna and Moriah and Morgan 4 years ago, but they are also dominant because those three players and every other player at Uconn during the past 4 years has been challenged every day in practice and every game to be better than they were the day before. They were pushed ruthlessly to expand their games to improve their basketball IQ and to be better teammates. They were never allowed to settle for being just better than their teammates or satisfied with what they had done yesterday.

And OSU specifically is at this FF for exactly the same reason - maybe they do not have enough innate skill to knock off Uconn yet, but give that team and that coach the credit they deserve. And the other two teams as well.

Next year Uconn will not have the two best players in WCBB on the team so inevitably the level of dominance will be different. And there are a number of teams that have either the talent or the coaching to truly challenge, and some have both the talent and the coaching. This is a story that has two more days to run. Like most 'too dominant' stories it is just a matter of time.

And the best analogy I have heard is Mike Tyson - people ended up betting on whether or not an opponent would last through the first round, because no one would take bets on an opponent beating him. It was brutal slaughter, but people still paid lots of money to watch and it continued until he got lazy and stopped training and some palooka named Buster took him out. Uconn isn't going to get lazy and they aren't going to stop training, but other teams will rise up with coaches who know how to maximize their talent and players who want to be great.

 

[LVJeff]

1. Too many people live under some sort of false reality that anyone gives a damn about women's basketball to begin with. They don't...

So...the over 11 million people that attended women's basketball games didn't give a damn?

Too many male internet posters live under some sort of false reality that women's sports fans give a damn about their postings. They don't.

 

[LVJeff]

I think it is unfortunate that a few fans have to cast a bad shadow over the Lady Vols with "he cheated for Maya" type comments.

I think it is unfortunate that the Uconn coach had to cast a bad shadow over the Uconn basketball program by cheating.

 

[madtownvol]

So...the over 11 million people that attended women's basketball games didn't give a damn?

Too many male internet posters live under some sort of false reality that women's sports fans give a damn about their postings. They don't.

On that point, the top attendance schools are as follows (numbers = # of games, total attendance and average att.):

1.
South Carolina
G 16 - 196,684, 12,293
2.
Tennessee
18, 186,754, 10,375
3.
Louisville
17, 161,754, 9,515
4.
Iowa St.
17, 157,916, 9,289
5.
Notre Dame
20, 170,882, 8,544
6.
UConn
15, 123,247, 8,216
7.
Kentucky
17, 108,436, 6,379
8.
Baylor
19, 120,484, 6,341
9.
Purdue
16, 100,458, 6,279
10.
Michigan St.
16, 97,906, 6,119

Of the top ten, only #6 Uconn is in the final four. Oregon St was 21st; Syracuse and Washington were not in the top 50.

OF course these numbers are for the 2014-2015 season. The overall attendance # should be up even more for 2015-2016.

So, the general pattern is that better programs (i.e. winning) tend to have higher attendance but there is not a direct correlation between fan support and winning a NC.

 

[99gator]

So...the over 11 million people that attended women's basketball games didn't give a damn?

Too many male internet posters live under some sort of false reality that women's sports fans give a damn about their postings. They don't.

Stop taking it personally. That's what happens whenever women's sports are discussed.

I live in the State of Florida. I love ice hockey. No one in the state of Florida cares about ice hockey. That statement is not meant to be literal as we know that there are a few who do. But, generally speaking, people in Florida don't care about ice hockey.

There are 343 divison I women's basketball schools. The average attendance was 1,565 per game. Considering that, at many schools, attendance to a women's basketball game is free of charge, I think the average attendance is pretty poor.

So, I apologize to the masses who flocked to these events, but the numbers are what they are.

When you look at the world of sports gambling and see just how little of it is placed on women's events, I think that is telling to the overall interest in the sport. Some may not look at that as a good measure but I do. In addition, there is no fantasy sports for women's leagues.

The WNBA had it's lowest attendance of all time this past season. Average television viewership of a WNBA game was 202,000. There are no words to describe how pathetic that is. To put that into perspective, no episode of Here Comes Honey Boo Boo had a viewership of less than 1 million.

So, in terms of this discussion, just how much the general public cares is relevant.

Where the public cares, there is an emphasis to succeed. When there is an emphasis to succeed, there is money and time placed on the endeavor. When money and time are put into an endeavor, talent will come. When talent comes, improvement in the activity comes.

 

[DR2]

Stop taking it personally. That's what happens whenever women's sports are discussed.

Seriously dude? You lecture WCBB fans on an LV and women's basketball site about not getting ticked off at the anti-women's sports trolls with stuff about their sport not having a freaking fantasy game or that guys don't want to blow their bucks on whether Syracuse will beat Washington? Betting and fantasy games is how you judge sports? Pathetic. By all means, indulge in your hours of World Series of Poker matches, and maybe you can find a WSoP fantasy game to really excite you.

Considering how poorly most women's college sports are supported by their schools, it's a wonder attendance isn't a lot worse, and the overall numbers have been growing around the nation year-by-year. And of course while the viewership for the NCAA men's action for the Selection show, Tourney games, and NIT have been hitting record lows in recent years, the women's games viewership on ESPN has been jumping, up 46% for the first two rounds, and the LVs helped out there by pulling their huge mass of viewers through the first weekend and beyond to the Elite 8. No reason to try to be a Debbie Downer about everything when the trends are up and will continue moving up as Kara and crew plug the game so beautifully and bring in great features like jacket tossing. The rising trends will continue, and you can bet on that.

 

[99gator]

Seriously dude? You lecture WCBB fans on an LV and women's basketball site about not getting ticked off at the anti-women's sports trolls with stuff about their sport not having a freaking fantasy game or that guys don't want to blow their bucks on whether Syracuse will beat Washington? Betting and fantasy games is how you judge sports? Pathetic. By all means, indulge in your hours of World Series of Poker matches, and maybe you can find a WSoP fantasy game to really excite you.

Considering how poorly most women's college sports are supported by their schools, it's a wonder attendance isn't a lot worse, and the overall numbers have been growing around the nation year-by-year. And of course while the viewership for the NCAA men's action for the Selection show, Tourney games, and NIT have been hitting record lows in recent years, the women's games viewership on ESPN has been jumping, up 46% for the first two rounds, and the LVs helped out there by pulling their huge mass of viewers through the first weekend and beyond to the Elite 8. No reason to try to be a Debbie Downer about everything when the trends are up and will continue moving up as Kara and crew plug the game so beautifully and bring in great features like jacket tossing. The rising trends will continue, and you can bet on that.

I am not anti-women's sports.

 

[DR2]

I am not anti-women's sports.

Okay, sorry, but being a Debbie Downer about about all the progress being made in the WCBB scene is at least a bit akin to all the trolls who go on the women's sites proclaiming "no one watches your stupid sport" stuff. Sure, a lot of us wish it could get more to the point that the women's USA soccer team or Serena's tennis action has vis-a-vis the guys, but the fact is, the future trends for WCBB are in its favor even if the numbers are still comparatively small. And with the #2 attendance in the WCBB, the LVs are going to be a big part of that future even if there are some current bumps in the road that need to smoothed over.

 

[brassie]

and the overall numbers have been growing around the nation year-by-year.

Actually, not so much. I think that the best thing that could be said about attendance is that it has been stagnant for several years and has actually decreased from 5 years ago.

2015 8,111,856 in 5185 games - avg 1565
2012 8,127,941 in 4779 games - avg 1585

Lots of factors the biggest being lack of interest.
Other factors - more TV coverage, lack of competition, low quality product.

 

[teacherdean]

gee no stinks,

did you see the little fellar crying on the tee vee, yesterday? REAL MEN don't CRY!

I like this Gule, there is a lot of crying but not much fixing. The competition needs to get off its collective butts and meet the challenge, until then get use to Genno winning and everyone else whining and pointing fingers.:cray:

 

[DR2]

and the overall numbers have been growing around the nation year-by-year.

Actually, not so much. I think that the best thing that could be said about attendance is that it has been stagnant for several years and has actually decreased from 5 years ago.

2015 8,111,856 in 5185 games - avg 1565
2012 8,127,941 in 4779 games - avg 1585

Lots of factors the biggest being lack of interest.
Other factors - more TV coverage, lack of competition, low quality product.

Just wow, Brassie, are you some kind of Yukon troll enlisted by JS-notty to dump on WCBB? Do you look at the data at all before post this crap? 2012 had 336 teams reporting in, while last year had 349, 13 more low level teams with maybe 100+ in attendance. Does that matter? Well obviously not to clueless Debbie Downers like you. But as anyone who is clued in, it is the numbers on the media reports are the ones that really matter. So tell me, Brassie, are you going to dump on them too? I think a 46% increase is pretty respectable unless you're a stooge.

 

[brassie]

I think it is unfortunate that the Uconn coach had to cast a bad shadow over the Uconn basketball program by cheating.

I'll ask the same question that I've asked a dozen times - how did he cheat? An ESPN tour?

This has been rehashed on message boards a million times and not one accuser has offered a single bit of evidence. Just unsubstantiated BS. If you know he cheated have the balls to put up the proof. Otherwise you're just another whiner.

 

[brassie]

Just wow, Brassie, are you some kind of Yukon troll enlisted by JS-notty to dump on WCBB? Do you look at the data at all before post this crap? 2012 had 336 teams reporting in, while last year had 349, 13 more low level teams with maybe 100+ in attendance. Does that matter? Well obviously not to clueless Debbie Downers like you. But as anyone who is clued in, it is the numbers on the media reports are the ones that really matter. So tell me, Brassie, are you going to dump on them too? I think a 46% increase is pretty respectable unless you're a stooge.

46% increase in what? I don't know what media numbers you are talking about. A 46% increase in attendance is absolute bullsheet. The numbers I posted are from the official NCAA Attendance site. You might try visiting it some time. The true measure is in asses in the seats. Check out average attendance per game. My numbers are correct. 2011 attendance per game was 1585. 2015 attendance per game was 1565. You can call that growth if you like.

NCAA says there were 343 teams reporting attendance last year.

Why the hostility? Are you just unable to have a discussion without name calling?

 

[BBaller]

gee no stinks,

did you see the little fellar crying on the tee vee, yesterday? REAL MEN don't CRY!

Seriously? What are you, twelve years old?

Instead of mocking him, why don't you consider that a man that's accomplished everything he has still cares deeply enough about his players that he gets emotional. Instead, you make some juvenile comment. Very classy.

 

[gule]

does that hurt yer little feelings, bball? Aren't you precious! lol

 

[gule]

He's a freaking hypocrite is all.

He has said many times that women coaches get too emotional about how the games are played and that they need to toughen up and quit *****ing. and then he has his little crying jag for the cameras...

 

[gule]

As long as they still make handbags, I will believe that bass turd cheated.

 

[Coach Jumper]

Stop taking it personally. That's what happens whenever women's sports are discussed.

I live in the State of Florida. I love ice hockey. No one in the state of Florida cares about ice hockey. That statement is not meant to be literal as we know that there are a few who do. But, generally speaking, people in Florida don't care about ice hockey.

There are 343 divison I women's basketball schools. The average attendance was 1,565 per game. Considering that, at many schools, attendance to a women's basketball game is free of charge, I think the average attendance is pretty poor.

So, I apologize to the masses who flocked to these events, but the numbers are what they are.

When you look at the world of sports gambling and see just how little of it is placed on women's events, I think that is telling to the overall interest in the sport. Some may not look at that as a good measure but I do. In addition, there is no fantasy sports for women's leagues.

The WNBA had it's lowest attendance of all time this past season. Average television viewership of a WNBA game was 202,000. There are no words to describe how pathetic that is. To put that into perspective, no episode of Here Comes Honey Boo Boo had a viewership of less than 1 million.

So, in terms of this discussion, just how much the general public cares is relevant.

Where the public cares, there is an emphasis to succeed. When there is an emphasis to succeed, there is money and time placed on the endeavor. When money and time are put into an endeavor, talent will come. When talent comes, improvement in the activity comes.

++++++++++++++++

Both WCBB and WNBA are among the poorest marketed of any sport... The halftime and timeout fillers at the games are pathetic...((Dog tricks, ball jugglers.etc)) pathetic... It would be easy to create an in-game event that would coordinate with area AAU or HS athletics during a college or WNBA game or season..... This would give the communities around the women's programs some area interest that was still in the realm of BB without looking like they are accepting ANYTHING to fill timeouts and between qtr. breaks.


You see HS and AAU events leading into games in the Atlanta Dream org. They have AAU pre-game events or scriimages or even games before the WNBA contest, that almost double the regular attendance. (Get the child, get the family)... I have yet to see this marketing in any environment but there.

As long as the women's sports are marketed by proponent's of the men's game or unimaginative advertising and promotional teams. this will happen.... And folks, the influx of the men's game is real especially in the coaching ranks... Look at the final four field this year. All male coaches.