Trump, Mussolini, Nazis and the 2nd Amendment

[SWIL]

I'm a liberal and I don't hate the 2nd Amendment. I think guns for hunting and home defense are just fine. The "assault" weapons and other various guns created for killing people in war or whatever, I'm not as cool with, but even those can be owned and operated properly by the people just fine in my experiences here in the south. You can't ever stop every lunatic, even with a ban.

As for Trump's fascist-like ways? They bother me not because I think he will become a dictator like Mussolini or Hitler, but because his rhetoric is stirring up the worst among us and emboldening them. I am not worried about our military ever taking up guns against the American people under Obama's FEMA camp/marshal law or under Trump. I'm more afraid of the dumbasses who have come out of the woodwork because they think it's okay to act a certain way because the Donald does.

Hypothetical Worst case scenario: United States citizens are left no choice but to remove an elected tyrant. Thanks to established liberal policies, all Americans have are pistols, shotguns, and bolt action hunting rifles.

What do you think the government will use to fend off the coup?

 

[G0 BIG 0RANGE]

Hypothetical Worst case scenario: United States citizens are left no choice but to remove an elected tyrant. Thanks to established liberal policies, all Americans have are pistols, shotguns, and bolt action hunting rifles.

What do you think the government will use to fend off the coup?

Even if we were allowed to keep our AR15s and other various weapons, or whatever, we'd still have no chance against the US military's training, weapons, and technology. This isn't the 1700s where we were on more equal footing with our military. Having said that, I really do not see it ever coming to the military preempting civilians. Where is the coup taking place? Who is this mob going after? Military bases? The White House? Because, in the small chance the military does decide to retaliate or defend, we are SOL, regardless of pistols or machine guns.

Unless our military is brainwashed, they won't take orders to kill what may be their friends and family.

 

[apevol]

Even if we were allowed to keep our AR15s and other various weapons, or whatever, we'd still have no chance against the US military's training, weapons, and technology. This isn't the 1700s where we were on more equal footing with our military. Having said that, I really do not see it ever coming to the military preempting civilians. Where is the coup taking place? Who is this mob going after? Military bases? The White House? Because, in the small chance the military does decide to retaliate or defend, we are SOL, regardless of pistols or machine guns.

Unless our military is brainwashed, they won't take orders to kill what may be their friends and family.

Yeah, never really understood that. Its not like we have tanks and air support. Let alone the ability to coordinate.

 

[hndog609]

Even if we were allowed to keep our AR15s and other various weapons, or whatever, we'd still have no chance against the US military's training, weapons, and technology. This isn't the 1700s where we were on more equal footing with our military. Having said that, I really do not see it ever coming to the military preempting civilians. Where is the coup taking place? Who is this mob going after? Military bases? The White House? Because, in the small chance the military does decide to retaliate or defend, we are SOL, regardless of pistols or machine guns.

Unless our military is brainwashed, they won't take orders to kill what may be their friends and family.

This is a one dimensional approach to a three dimensional issue. For any foreseeable future it's not going to be "Bubba's vs Tanks". The military would fracture all to hell at the idea and a large part of any resistance would be current and former military anyway.

Being effectively armed is first and foremost the ability to say "No, we won't." With unarmed people you can round folks up with very little drama. With an armed populace you'd better be bringing a whole lot more game.

There's a great video out there of a bear vs a badger. If the bear REALLY wanted to have him he would and they both knew it. The badger was no rabbit and the bear was going to get a face full of claws and teeth for his troubles and they both knew that too. The bear thought better of it...better to have claws and teeth than be a rabbit.

 

[volinbham]

How many times has an armed populace been the primary reason of the fall of a fascist government?

Well part of the problem is these governments typically confiscate guns so such an uprising cannot.

The 2nd amendment is grounded in the notion that the people should be able to protect themselves against a tyrannical government.

 

[volinbham]

I'd see where you were coming from if Trump actually gave a **** about our constitutional rights. Even in the midst of all his squawking and banter, he really hasn't brought up guns and freedom of the press, which (as you know) were among the first things to be gutted during those regimes. In fact, he's expressed interest in assault rifle bans and more thorough checks. Along with that notion, he wrote,

"It’s often argued that the American murder rate is high because guns are more available here than in other countries. Democrats want to confiscate all guns, which is a dumb idea because only the law-abiding citizens would turn in their guns and the bad guys would be the only ones left armed. The Republicans walk the NRA line and refuse even limited restrictions."

To me, that just seems as though he thinks a ban wouldn't work. My guess is that he doesn't have a problem with gun control. He only has a problem with boneheaded solutions promoted by the far left.

I think the Hitler/Mussolini comparisons are drawn from his demagoguery. We haven't seen a candidate garner such passionate, radical, widespread support in a presidential election quite like he has. The blind following is staggering (and I thought '04 was nuts). He clearly doesn't have much of a clue when it comes to passing legislation, dealing with foreign dignitaries, or running a national economy (which you and I both know is completely different than a real-estate company). He appeals to a man's medulla.

He isn't making this election about us. He's hardly making it about the country itself. This is the germination of a personality cult. This is about him. Sure, his voters are drawn to some of the ideas he's laid out (the xenophobic, **** you approach to immigration) and the proposed genocide of the radical Islamic family tree. There are no specific or tangible routes to these policies, but a great deal of people like the ideas. They like that he isn't afraid to say them.

Who knows though. I'm sure a lot of Euro's doubted that Hitler could exterminate 75% of a religion/people.

Anyway, that's my take on the comparison. You see some of his supporters at rallies and you could swear some of them were future brownshirts.

Sure he's said some stuff that sounds fascist and is a cult of personality.

I'd argue the same is true for our current POTUS but I don't recall the warnings. Unquestioning followers? check. Remember the "truth squad" initiative where you are supposed to bust your neighbor if they say something critical of Obama policies? Where were all the Mussolini comparisons then?

I'm not saying one can't look at conditions that have similarity. What I am saying is that a Mussolini or Hitler ISN'T POSSIBLE in our current system.

That's what I'm reacting to - the people who actually fear this guy could do what those guys did.

There's plenty to be critical of with Trump but fearing he'd rule as a fascist dictator is looney.

 

[volinbham]

Isn't going to the Nazi Card one of the all-time best tells that you're argument is invalid?

Godwin's Law apparently only counts sometimes.

 

[volinbham]

I'm a liberal and I don't hate the 2nd Amendment. I think guns for hunting and home defense are just fine. The "assault" weapons and other various guns created for killing people in war or whatever, I'm not as cool with, but even those can be owned and operated properly by the people just fine in my experiences here in the south. You can't ever stop every lunatic, even with a ban.

As for Trump's fascist-like ways? They bother me not because I think he will become a dictator like Mussolini or Hitler, but because his rhetoric is stirring up the worst among us and emboldening them. I am not worried about our military ever taking up guns against the American people under Obama's FEMA camp/marshal law or under Trump. I'm more afraid of the dumbasses who have come out of the woodwork because they think it's okay to act a certain way because the Donald does.

On the latter wouldn't you argue the same about Bernie Sanders? He's reinforcing a myth that the rich are bad and are screwing you. That companies are bad and screwing you. That it's not your fault or responsibility that you don't have what they have. That the government can provide all your needs?

Aren't those ideas just as far fetched and likely to cause Joe Sixpack to take action against the oppressors?

Where are the articles and tweets about Russia 1917?

 

[VolsNSkinsFan]

Attackwatch.com. Takes you straight to 0FA website

 

[DancingOutlaw]

You can tell Trump concerns the left because they cannot stop talking about him. And not concern like he's the next Hitler but concern like he might appeal to folks In the middle and win the election. Really I think anyone that compares Trump to Hitler should apologize to those who survived the holocaust and nazi Germany. Hitler murdered millions of people without blinking. Donald Trump has suggested maybe we stop letting in people to this country that harbor Islamic militants and those who cannot respect the sovereignty of our borders. That seems fairly common sense. And it is light years away from anything Hitler did.

 

[DinkinFlicka]

You can tell Trump concerns the left because they cannot stop talking about him. And not concern like he's the next Hitler but concern like he might appeal to folks In the middle and win the election. Really I think anyone that compares Trump to Hitler should apologize to those who survived the holocaust and nazi Germany. Hitler murdered millions of people without blinking. Donald Trump has suggested maybe we stop letting in people to this country that harbor Islamic militants and those who cannot respect the sovereignty of our borders. That seems fairly common sense. And it is light years away from anything Hitler did.

Eva Schloss says hi.

You can go ahead and insert your foot in your mouth now, because that was a really asinine comment.

For those at home wondering:

http://www.newsweek.com/holocaust-memorial-day-anne-frank-refugee-crisis-donald-trump-420312

 

[G0 BIG 0RANGE]

On the latter wouldn't you argue the same about Bernie Sanders? He's reinforcing a myth that the rich are bad and are screwing you. That companies are bad and screwing you. That it's not your fault or responsibility that you don't have what they have. That the government can provide all your needs?

Aren't those ideas just as far fetched and likely to cause Joe Sixpack to take action against the oppressors?

Where are the articles and tweets about Russia 1917?

Bernie never acts like Trump or speaks of killing people or torture or kicking people out based on their religion or nationality. The rallies Trump puts on has people attacking people and generally acting like damn fools. We haven't seen Bernie encourage his crowds to assault protestors. Bernie says some of the same things Reagan said about "fair share of taxes", gun rights, and Social Security and people act like Sanders is calling for a violent overthrow of the government like the Bolsheviks? There is an underlying anger from both Trump and Sanders supporters, except Sanders doesn't say racist, sexist, xenophobic, violent **** to get stuff done.

 

[Persian Vol]

Well part of the problem is these governments typically confiscate guns so such an uprising cannot.

The 2nd amendment is grounded in the notion that the people should be able to protect themselves against a tyrannical government.

In the late 1700s it was plausible and made logical sense. But that time has past and that logic is no longer relevant in today's society. Having firearms won't be enough to topple a theoretical tyrannical American government. A group of armed citizens is not going to overthrow the most powerful military the world has ever seen. Regardless, America currently isn't set up to allow such an extreme theoretical possibility in which a rebellion would be needed.

 

[hog88]

Yaddayaddayadda. Passing the buck doesn't change the fact that he's a truly bigoted piece of ****.

Sure, a lot of dems use the AA vote to win and gear some of their policies to ensure that, but the GOP primarily looks out for us. They back the prisons, the back the LEO's, and they love gentrification.

Dems use AA's. GOP looks to keep them away from the middle class.

What's wrong with gentrification? You against private property rights?

 

[DinkinFlicka]

Sure he's said some stuff that sounds fascist and is a cult of personality.

I'd argue the same is true for our current POTUS but I don't recall the warnings. Unquestioning followers? check. Remember the "truth squad" initiative where you are supposed to bust your neighbor if they say something critical of Obama policies? Where were all the Mussolini comparisons then?

I'm not saying one can't look at conditions that have similarity. What I am saying is that a Mussolini or Hitler ISN'T POSSIBLE in our current system.

That's what I'm reacting to - the people who actually fear this guy could do what those guys did.

There's plenty to be critical of with Trump but fearing he'd rule as a fascist dictator is looney.

It's not like Obama would incite hate or violence at his rallies. He didn't advocate for violence against an entire religion. He didn't target an ethnic group with aims of deportation.

You're reaching with the comparisons. Trump is an agent of hatred and xenophobia. Sure, he has no chance of creating a Fascist America, but there are a lot of correlations between he and Hitler on how he is rising to power and drawing support.

 

[DinkinFlicka]

What's wrong with gentrification? You against private property rights?

I'm absolutely against driving up property values with the aims of pushing those in a lower socioeconomic status further and further away from the city. It's people using their money to further wedge the caste system apart.

Remember what I've been doing for a living for most of my adult life.

 

[DancingOutlaw]

Eva Schloss says hi.

You can go ahead and insert your foot in your mouth now, because that was a really asinine comment.

For those at home wondering:

http://www.newsweek.com/holocaust-memorial-day-anne-frank-refugee-crisis-donald-trump-420312

So not taking refugees is like Hitler murdering millions of people? And the logic is kind of falling in on itself. In 2016 not taking refugees is acting like Hitler. But in 1938 Hitler was actually causing the refugee crisis. So it seems either way you're Hitler?

 

[G0 BIG 0RANGE]

So not taking refugees is like Hitler murdering millions of people? And the logic is kind of falling in on itself. In 2016 not taking refugees is acting like Hitler. But in 1938 Hitler was actually causing the refugee crisis. So it seems either way you're Hitler?

Not the 'not accepting refugees' so much as saying all of X race or religion are pieces of **** rapists and terrorists, therefore we should mark them for identification or get them out of here. That's like Hitler Rhetoric Lite, I guess.

 

[DinkinFlicka]

So not taking refugees is like Hitler murdering millions of people? And the logic is kind of falling in on itself. In 2016 not taking refugees is acting like Hitler. But in 1938 Hitler was actually causing the refugee crisis. So it seems either way you're Hitler?

Nice strawman. You said something stupid. Own it, and we can move on.

 

[volinbham]

Bernie never acts like Trump or speaks of killing people or torture or kicking people out based on their religion or nationality. The rallies Trump puts on has people attacking people and generally acting like damn fools. We haven't seen Bernie encourage his crowds to assault protestors. Bernie says some of the same things Reagan said about "fair share of taxes", gun rights, and Social Security and people act like Sanders is calling for a violent overthrow of the government like the Bolsheviks? There is an underlying anger from both Trump and Sanders supporters, except Sanders doesn't say racist, sexist, xenophobic, violent **** to get stuff done.

Sanders is calling for a revolution. He's telling people that a small minority of people are the problem and it's not your fault. He's telling people that a minority group (the rich) is taking things away from you. Claiming he's just saying what Reagan said is really off point.

Bernie is classist, not racist though in his effort to attract minority votes he is peddling the race card.

Trump's style is different but both are stirring the pot against target groups to gin up support.

 

[DinkinFlicka]

Sanders is calling for a revolution. He's telling people that a small minority of people are the problem and it's not your fault. He's telling people that a minority group (the rich) is taking things away from you. Claiming he's just saying what Reagan said is really off point.

Bernie is classist, not racist though in his effort to attract minority votes he is peddling the race card.

Trump's style is different but both are stirring the pot against target groups to gin up support.

One case has more logic to it than the other.

One goes after abuse of money, power, and influence.

One goes after ancestry, nationality, and creed.

 

[RobsPics]

2) if these people really belief Trump is the second coming of Fascism then shouldn't those critics be full throated supporters of the 2nd Amendment? Isn't an armed populace the best defense against a fascist government.

The best defense against a fascist government is to not elect the fascist government in the first place.

 

[LouderVol]

Well part of the problem is these governments typically confiscate guns so such an uprising cannot.

The 2nd amendment is grounded in the notion that the people should be able to protect themselves against a tyrannical government.

does no one here know how Mussolini died?

 

[volinbham]

One case has more logic to it than the other.

One goes after abuse of money, power, and influence.

One goes after ancestry, nationality, and creed.

A matter of perspective.

Just as being rich doesn't mean you are part of the "problem" nor does being Muslim. If you believe the "rich" are the problem then you are every bit as prejudiced as someone who thinks Mexicans are the problem.

Both are simplistic characterizations.

One is PC; one isn't but at the core it's the same principle. That group that you don't belong to is the problem and I'm going to get them for you so your life will be better.

 

[G0 BIG 0RANGE]

Sanders is calling for a revolution. He's telling people that a small minority of people are the problem and it's not your fault. He's telling people that a minority group (the rich) is taking things away from you. Claiming he's just saying what Reagan said is really off point.

Bernie is classist, not racist though in his effort to attract minority votes he is peddling the race card.

Trump's style is different but both are stirring the pot against target groups to gin up support.

Where has Sanders promoted violent revolution? His revolution is a peaceful one. How does his comments on saying the rich should pay Reagan era marginal tax rates equate to "we must kill terrorist's family members"? Did he say that all rich people are rapists? Or that we should make them wear identification? Does he shout down protestors and whip his crowd into a frenzy?

You don't have to agree with Sanders, but to say he and that asshat are comparable is a stretch.