Freeze and Dabo negative religious recruit UT

#452
#452
SCvol333 said:
I think its funny how many Christians focus on disproving Evolution. Like even of they did that somehow proves magic must have done it.

Your real problem is Physics not Biology. But so few people are capable of understanding it that it hasn't had the same type of impact. Basically every finding post Newton has made the idea of a Christian intervening God more and more unlikely
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Good lord...please make it stop. Offseason threads with religious topics like this are literally some of the worst threads on VN.
 
#453
#453
glichtenwalter said:
Jesus has always been the point of the bible. So much of the OT is simply preparing the way for Jesus. Even in Genesis 3:15 Jesus is foreshadowed when God told Satan/the serpent, "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

Jesus went on to conquer Satan and death on the cross.

There are countless other verses that speak of Jesus and his eventual coming through your the OT. The whole thing is preparing for Him.
Click to expand...

I understand what you're saying here, but seems like a different subject. Unless you're saying it was Jesus instead of Jehovah that created the universe?

I'm just saying if Jehovah really existed, it is highly unlikely he created the universe. It is however very likely that he came from the stars, along with many other "gods". Hence the numerous references to the stars, the zodiac, the constellations, and "the heavens".

Virtually every ancient culture on earth share similar stories about the gods coming from the heavens. The first known civilization was set up in mesopotamia by the gods (according their own artifacts), which was just down the road from where Abram was appointed by God (Jehovah?) to be the head of his own civilization.

Isn't it possible that Jehovah was just one of those beings heavily active on earth in those days, and decided to sort of take over the creation? By setting up his own civilization, and then forcing them to exterminate rival groups by any means necessary?

The final destination of the bible seems to be more than signaling Jesus' arrival. The harvest seems to be a pretty big deal in the NT.

Is it possible there have been many creations followed by subsequent harvests in earths past eons of time? If so, do you think Jehovah and Jesus were involved? Just some questions I ponder.
 
#456
#456
I think many believe microevolution as a process a designer might implement so organisms could survive, but macroevolution is a different story altogether. Neither mutation nor especially natural selection explain the origin of new information required for new body plans, organs, etc. Here's a link from a world renowned chemist's view who makes molecules for a living every day. He and 700 other scientists signed a petition stating their concerns that science takes this leap to macro for granted, and took alot of heat for it. Meanwhile he has an outstanding challenge to any scientist in the world who can come explain it to him. Anyone who believes in macroevolution here, if you have information to increase my understanding on the subject I'd welcome it.

A world-famous chemist tells the truth: there’s no scientist alive today who understands macroevolution | Uncommon Descent


Macroevolution, microevolution and chemistry: the devil is in the details | Uncommon Descent


https://youtu.be/aA-FcnLsF1g
 
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#457
#457
SCvol333 said:
I think its funny how many Christians focus on disproving Evolution. Like even of they did that somehow proves magic must have done it.

Your real problem is Physics not Biology. But so few people are capable of understanding it that it hasn't had the same type of impact. Basically every finding post Newton has made the idea of a Christian intervening God more and more unlikely
Click to expand...

Your last paragraph is pure silliness. Congrats.
 
#458
#458
StoVol said:
I think many believe microevolution as a process a designer might implement so organisms could survive, but macroevolution is a different story altogether. Neither mutation nor especially natural selection explain the origin of new information required for new body plans, organs, etc. Here's a link from a world renowned chemist's view who makes molecules for a living every day. He and 700 other scientists signed a petition stating their concerns that science takes this leap to macro for granted, and took alot of heat for it. Meanwhile he has an outstanding challenge to any scientist in the world who can come explain it to him. Anyone who believes in macroevolution here, if you have information to increase my understanding on the subject I'd welcome it.

A world-famous chemist tells the truth: there’s no scientist alive today who understands macroevolution | Uncommon Descent
Click to expand...

I am by no means an expert on evolution (or really anything), but I can offer my thoughts on this very pertinent question.

Everything in the universe can be broken down into 4 quadrants, the interior individual (thoughts, intentions, etc.), the exterior individual (physical, behavioral, etc.), the interior collective (group thoughts,etc.), and exterior collective (group behavior, etc.). This Ken Wilber's AQAL theory and way to complex to fully explain here, but very interesting stuff.

Anyway, everything is made up of these 4 qualities, from the tiniest particle to the cells making up your tissues, to group entities such as governments, to solar systems and galaxies.

Nothing exists in a vacuum, and everything progresses in lines of development, from less complex to more complex. Atoms are more complex than particles, molecules are more complex than atoms, cells are more complex than molecules, etc. Each level transcends but also includes the previous level.

Now, all mass contains energy (E=mc^2), and all energy is the primordial consciousness (creator). So particles can't help gathering into groups to create atoms, atoms are compelled to form molecules, molecules group to make single celled organisms, etc. At some point in time single cell organisms found that gathering into groups increased their chances for survival, hence multi-cellular organisms, with individual cells taking on specialized functions over time to increase efficiency, which is the primary impulse of evolution. Same rules created individual organisms, groups, villages, etc.

At every level, micro and macro, efficiency rules. The organism that develops the greatest efficiency in terms of securing safety, food, reproduction (Maslow) will survive and re-create itself. What is efficient in one environment may not be efficient in another. So the environment is key. But those that survive and advance get to reproduce their newly developed traits into the next generation.

So survival of the fittest really means survival of that which figures out the environment and develops the traits necessary to overcome its challenges. Could be a set of claws, agility, defense mechanisms, plumage, a more intelligent brain, technology, etc. But the development of those traits, for the organism, begins at the cellular level.

And this is where the scientifically unexplained (so far) processes come into play. This is where the spiritual practices such as those in the bible play a role. Meditation/prayer helps to polarize the interior individual. IOW, a pure/whole body is one in which every cell is on the same page, pulling in the same direction, to overcome the challenges of its environment. An impure body is full of chaos, cells looking out for themselves only (can result in cancer or other diseases).

So to answer your question as briefly as I could (sorry so long), I feel the origin of mutations is the primordial consciousness of the universe, which cannot be proven, but still makes sense to me.

Didn't proof read so this may be a lot of nonsense.
 
#459
#459
there is only one truth,everything else is a lie ( Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
 
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#460
#460
JBondVol said:
I understand what you're saying here, but seems like a different subject. Unless you're saying it was Jesus instead of Jehovah that created the universe?

I'm just saying if Jehovah really existed, it is highly unlikely he created the universe. It is however very likely that he came from the stars, along with many other "gods". Hence the numerous references to the stars, the zodiac, the constellations, and "the heavens".

Virtually every ancient culture on earth share similar stories about the gods coming from the heavens. The first known civilization was set up in mesopotamia by the gods (according their own artifacts), which was just down the road from where Abram was appointed by God (Jehovah?) to be the head of his own civilization.

Isn't it possible that Jehovah was just one of those beings heavily active on earth in those days, and decided to sort of take over the creation? By setting up his own civilization, and then forcing them to exterminate rival groups by any means necessary?

The final destination of the bible seems to be more than signaling Jesus' arrival. The harvest seems to be a pretty big deal in the NT.

Is it possible there have been many creations followed by subsequent harvests in earths past eons of time? If so, do you think Jehovah and Jesus were involved? Just some questions I ponder.
Click to expand...

God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. All three and one simultaneously. Again, this is something that out finite brains cannot wrap completely around. It requires faith. There are things that cannot be explained through our limited cognitive abilities. Even the brightest minds among us fall short of being able to explain many things. So to answer your first question, I believe that Jesus (God the Son), God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit were all present at the moment of creation.

As far as the last question concerning multiple creations, I have to say I don't know. Is it possible the God have created the universe and watched it play out to an end? I suppose it could be possible. God is eternal so if the universe is finite and will eventually end then I suppose it is possible that God could have created the universe more than once.

God = Infinite
Human thought = Finite

The two don't speak the same language.
 
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#461
#461
glichtenwalter said:
God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. All three and one simultaneously. Again, this is something that out finite brains cannot wrap completely around. It requires faith. There are things that cannot be explained through our limited cognitive abilities. Even the brightest minds among us fall short of being able to explain many things. So to answer your first question, I believe that Jesus (God the Son), God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit were all present at the moment of creation.

As far as the last question concerning multiple creations, I have to say I don't know. Is it possible the God have created the universe and watched it play out to an end? I suppose it could be possible. God is eternal so if the universe is finite and will eventually end then I suppose it is possible that God could have created the universe more than once.

God = Infinite
Human thought = Finite

The two don't speak the same language.
Click to expand...

Are you Trinitarian? I ask because I was raised oneness and have heard oneness preachers say the same thing. I never really got into it one way or the other, just looked at it as two views of the same thing.
 
#462
#462
God= father creator
Jesus= son the word
Holy Spirit = doer of the word
thus God said let their be, God spoke it Holy Spirit did it and Jesus is what was spoken,the Word
 
#463
#463
glichtenwalter said:
God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. All three and one simultaneously. Again, this is something that out finite brains cannot wrap completely around. It requires faith. There are things that cannot be explained through our limited cognitive abilities. Even the brightest minds among us fall short of being able to explain many things. So to answer your first question, I believe that Jesus (God the Son), God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit were all present at the moment of creation.

As far as the last question concerning multiple creations, I have to say I don't know. Is it possible the God have created the universe and watched it play out to an end? I suppose it could be possible. God is eternal so if the universe is finite and will eventually end then I suppose it is possible that God could have created the universe more than once.

God = Infinite
Human thought = Finite

The two don't speak the same language.
Click to expand...

Actually I was referring to multiple creations of the earth, not the universe. And not the earth itself but the life on it. Specifically man.

I believe it was the apostle Paul (or maybe Peter) who mentioned the world that once was, but is no more, which seems to mirror a hopi indian tradition of prior earth ages. As well as that of the hindu belief system. And the parable of the tares seems to hold some meaning on this subject. It was the only parable Jesus actually explained.

Although I can't say I'm a believer, I enjoy reading the Bible and feel it holds a wealth of spiritual knowledge.

Thanks for the reply.
 
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#464
#464
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
 
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#465
#465
mommasvol said:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Click to expand...

It really is this simple, mommasvol. Unfortunately, many refuse to see and hear.
 
#466
#466
volfan_89 said:
Honest question to anyone who wants to answer, what's your feelings on numbers 31:17-18?
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Since you say this is an honest question, perhaps you mean it.

Start your research about the state of the culture of the Midianites, which included the children of Moab, to which this scripture refers. Consider that the Bible states God is long suffering. merciful and slow to anger. He desires none to perish per scripture. He chose the Israelites to be his light unto the world with his covenant with Abraham well before the timing of these events. Other nations did not necessarily agree that they wanted to live in the same manner as Israel or accept Israel's standing with a God they did not believe in, so they went their own way. Sounds familiar today.

Earlier in the book of Numbers, the Israelites "began to play the harlot with the daughters of Moab" (25:1). The Israelites attended the sacrifices of the Moabites, they ate among the Moabites eating unclean foods, bowed down to the Moabites' gods including Ba'al (25:2,3). God judged Israel for her harlotry, both spiritual and literal, with a plague in which 24,000 Israelites died (25:9). You did not mention this passage a few chapters before the one in question. So assuming you are serious, you realize that if the chosen are punished for rebellion from God in this manner; why would those that worship other false gods not be punished as well?

As the Jewish Encyclopedia says per Biblical Hermeneutics:

"It is commonly held that this form of Ba'al-worship especially called for sensual indulgence. The context seems to favor this view, on account of the shameful licentiousness into which many of the Israelites were there enticed. But all Ba'al-worship encouraged this sin; and Peor may not have been worse than many other shrines in this respect, though the evil there was certainly flagrant."

Want to know what that "sensual indulgence" included? It was filthy and depraved with child-sacrifice, cult prostitution, bestiality, pedophilia, and more. It made Sodom and Gomorrah look like a walk in the park.

The young female virgins were thought by theologians to be undefiled by the culture's practices and Ba'al worship. Per Jewish law they were incorporated into the culture and became wives of Hebrew men. The general thought is the young boys were killed to prevent revenge upon Israel that they would undoubtedly seek at some point in the future. Sins of the fathers comes into play with this. God ordered them destroyed. After what Israel had previously experienced for disobedience they did what they were to do.

God is loving and gives everybody opportunity to turn from sin and be restored to him. If we do he will forgive and restore us. But he will not wait forever because sin is totally unacceptable to him as you can see from these and many other Biblical passages. You can ask him for more details if you choose to enter his presence when you pass from this life on Earth.
 
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#467
#467
JBondVol said:
Actually I was referring to multiple creations of the earth, not the universe. And not the earth itself but the life on it. Specifically man.

I believe it was the apostle Paul (or maybe Peter) who mentioned the world that once was, but is no more, which seems to mirror a hopi indian tradition of prior earth ages. As well as that of the hindu belief system. And the parable of the tares seems to hold some meaning on this subject. It was the only parable Jesus actually explained.

Although I can't say I'm a believer, I enjoy reading the Bible and feel it holds a wealth of spiritual knowledge.

Thanks for the reply.
Click to expand...

Sorry I misunderstood your question. However, my answer is the same. I don't know but God is infinite so I would not say it is impossible. Some might disagree with me. I believe the Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life and no one comes to the Father except through Him. That is what I believe now on this planet. Anything beyond that is speculation on our part IMO.
 
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#468
#468
Since we've gone completely off the rails here, if you could pick a mythological pantheon of Gods to be real, which would you pick? I'd probably go Norse. Norse gods often partook in flyting, which is basically like rap battles, to squash beef. Pretty bad*** IMO. Would be interesting to Loki put Kanye in his place.
 
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#469
#469
Vols4us said:
Since you say this is an honest question, perhaps you mean it.

Start your research about the state of the culture of the Midianites, which included the children of Moab, to which this scripture refers. Consider that the Bible states God is long suffering. merciful and slow to anger. He desires none to perish per scripture. He chose the Israelites to be his light unto the world with his covenant with Abraham well before the timing of these events. Other nations did not necessarily agree that they wanted to live in the same manner as Israel or accept Israel's standing with a God they did not believe in, so they went their own way. Sounds familiar today.

Earlier in the book of Numbers, the Israelites "began to play the harlot with the daughters of Moab" (25:1). The Israelites attended the sacrifices of the Moabites, they ate among the Moabites eating unclean foods, bowed down to the Moabites' gods including Ba'al (25:2,3). God judged Israel for her harlotry, both spiritual and literal, with a plague in which 24,000 Israelites died (25:9). You did not mention this passage a few chapters before the one in question. So assuming you are serious, you realize that if the chosen are punished for rebellion from God in this manner; why would those that worship other false gods not be punished as well?

As the Jewish Encyclopedia says per Biblical Hermeneutics:

"It is commonly held that this form of Ba'al-worship especially called for sensual indulgence. The context seems to favor this view, on account of the shameful licentiousness into which many of the Israelites were there enticed. But all Ba'al-worship encouraged this sin; and Peor may not have been worse than many other shrines in this respect, though the evil there was certainly flagrant."

Want to know what that "sensual indulgence" included? It was filthy and depraved with child-sacrifice, cult prostitution, bestiality, pedophilia, and more. It made Sodom and Gomorrah look like a walk in the park.

The young female virgins were thought by theologians to be undefiled by the culture's practices and Ba'al worship. Per Jewish law they were incorporated into the culture and became wives of Hebrew men. The general thought is the young boys were killed to prevent revenge upon Israel that they would undoubtedly seek at some point in the future. Sins of the fathers comes into play with this. God ordered them destroyed. After what Israel had previously experienced for disobedience they did what they were to do.

God is loving and gives everybody opportunity to turn from sin and be restored to him. If we do he will forgive and restore us. But he will not wait forever because sin is totally unacceptable to him as you can see from these and many other Biblical passages. You can ask him for more details if you choose to enter his presence when you pass from this life on Earth.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Thats probably the best explanation I've heard. Although I'm not sure why children that would've been too young to remember weren't saved. But as I said I won't debate since I was just looking for answers/opinions.
 
#470
#470
Darth_Shiveman said:
Since we've gone completely off the rails here, if you could pick a mythological pantheon of Gods to be real, which would you pick? I'd probably go Norse. Norse gods often partook in flyting, which is basically like rap battles, to squash beef. Pretty bad*** IMO. Would be interesting to Loki put Kanye in his place.
Click to expand...

I agree. I've always been intrigued by Norse mythology. Although the Celtic/Irish pantheon would be pretty bad*** to. Check out the Morrigan.
 
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#472
#472
Darth_Shiveman said:
Since we've gone completely off the rails here, if you could pick a mythological pantheon of Gods to be real, which would you pick? I'd probably go Norse. Norse gods often partook in flyting, which is basically like rap battles, to squash beef. Pretty bad*** IMO. Would be interesting to Loki put Kanye in his place.
Click to expand...

Personally, I think they were real, but they weren't actual gods. The Titans, the first to arrive, probably terraformed the planet to make it habitable, and then created (genetically engineered) man. The creation story of Genesis called them Elohim.

They and the Olympian gods fought for control of the creation. Some wanted to keep mankind in ignorance while others wanted to impart knowledge to them. This is hinted at in the Bible, but the bulk of the evidence is archeological.

I think a lot of the mythological traditions of various cultures overlap. Egyptian, Babylonian, Greek, Roman, Norse, Mesoamerican all had similarities. There's just too much evidence of their actual existence for me to believe these are all made up stories, by groups of people who had no contact with each other.
 
#473
#473
volfan_89 said:
Thanks. Thats probably the best explanation I've heard. Although I'm not sure why children that would've been too young to remember weren't saved. But as I said I won't debate since I was just looking for answers/opinions.
Click to expand...

You are welcome. There is probably more information available in Jewish historical documents. I agree, it is difficult to understand why some of them so young had to die and we are too far removed from it all to really know with certainty. A theory I would have could relate to their potential presence within Israel and the children's potential family relationships within many other tribes in the region. By bringing them into their nation they may have invited attack from tribes banding together for revenge and to add future warriors. If they heard they were all dead as was the case, they would lose that reasoning. However, that is just my theory. God knows the real answer.
 
#475
#475
JBondVol said:
Personally, I think they were real, but they weren't actual gods. The Titans, the first to arrive, probably terraformed the planet to make it habitable, and then created (genetically engineered) man. The creation story of Genesis called them Elohim.

They and the Olympian gods fought for control of the creation. Some wanted to keep mankind in ignorance while others wanted to impart knowledge to them. This is hinted at in the Bible, but the bulk of the evidence is archeological.

I think a lot of the mythological traditions of various cultures overlap. Egyptian, Babylonian, Greek, Roman, Norse, Mesoamerican all had similarities. There's just too much evidence of their actual existence for me to believe these are all made up stories, by groups of people who had no contact with each other.
Click to expand...

I've always been interested in the Nephilim. I wonder what they were and could've done. I've just started reading the book of Enoch. Then I'm going to start other apocryphal text.
 
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