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#7,803
#7,803
74volz said:
No, I don't think at all majority of abortions are due to rape. That's ridiculous. But you did prove my point by supporting a woman that was raped to have that baby. Sorry man, but that bible thumping message plays no game in a woman's decision to the hell she just went through. It's her choice and no court, person, bible or any other religion should ever make a decision for her. And that's just for a rape case. Now, you talked about the choice of having consensual sex. And oops she's pregnant. The guy wants nothing to do with it. It's her choice to keep it or abort it. Logically thinking what's the best case scenario for me with a child or without. There's a lot a woman has to go through mentally and obviously physically that us men will never understand. Therefore no man should be the deciding factor on what's best choice for her. How often do you here a guy say, yes I want you to have that baby in an accidental situation? Sometimes it works out for the best, but majority not. Ultimately it's still her choice.

And giving it up for adoption is no easy thing. It's a massive roll of the dice if you land with quality parents being adopted. A ton of kids never do and go through the system miserably. Some do, like our new RB commit. But bottom line is I have no problem at all with abortion. The number one pollution in the world for decades now is over population. Also, one other thing. Have you not ever asked yourself why on earth do those people have kids? I see it daily. Always feel horrible for those kids in shi**y situations.

I guess that's it...
Click to expand...

I have my spiritual reasons for opposing abortion, but the biggest reason is when I think about seeing and hearing my babies' heartbeats in an ultrasound. When you can detect a heartbeat at 6 weeks, tell me how you can kill that. The same DNA that will be in that person at 80 is created within mere hours of conception. Life is life and killing is killing.

Leave it to man to justify genocide.
 
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#7,804
#7,804
Brillovol said:
I have my spiritual reasons for opposing abortion, but the biggest reason is when I think about seeing and hearing my babies' heartbeats in an ultrasound. When you can detect a heartbeat at 6 weeks, tell me how you can kill that. The same DNA that will be in that person at 80 is created within mere hours of conception. Life is life and killing is killing.

Leave it to man to justify genocide.
Click to expand...

Amen.
 
#7,806
#7,806
Brillovol said:
I have my spiritual reasons for opposing abortion, but the biggest reason is when I think about seeing and hearing my babies' heartbeats in an ultrasound. When you can detect a heartbeat at 6 weeks, tell me how you can kill that. The same DNA that will be in that person at 80 is created within mere hours of conception. Life is life and killing is killing.

Leave it to man to justify genocide.
Click to expand...

:salute:
 
#7,808
#7,808
LotteryPick said:
I think some forget there is separation of church and state.
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I don't think the church or its separation from government has much to do with the issue. The most basic function of government is the protection of the life of its citizens. That includes protecting citizens from murder whenever possible and prosecuting those that commit it. Almost any moral code supports this and no one argues murder should be allowed due to separation of church and state.

The abortion issue comes down to one question. Is the baby/fetus a human life? If the answer is yes, then killing him/her should be forbidden just like the killing of anyone else. If the answer is no then abortion should be legal.

There's scripture to make an argument that the baby is a human life which others have quoted. There's also scientific reasons to think the same (DNA, early heartbeat, existence of organs, the fact science classifies a single celled organism as alive, etc..). I don't believe determining the status of a baby/fetus as a human life requires scripture or violates the separation of church and state. Even if it does though the government has already crossed that line. Our current law allows abortion up until the moment of birth so it effectively defines a human life as starting then. Is that a religious or moral determination? Is government violating the separation of church and state by making that decision? Whether it's a religious call or a scientific one, we have to make a determination in our laws. So our argument becomes one of when we think human life begins. Whether we think that's at conception, birth, or somewhere in between it doesn't mean we've violated the separation of church and state.

The planned parenthood videos highlight the human life question. The argument that the baby isn't a human life starts to fall apart when we're harvesting human organs from the baby. The fact the baby has organs reminds us how developed a lot of them are. The fact the organs are useful in doing research to help improve our medical treatment of humans reminds us how similar to us they are.
 
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#7,809
#7,809
74volz said:
No, I don't think at all majority of abortions are due to rape. That's ridiculous. But you did prove my point by supporting a woman that was raped to have that baby. Sorry man, but that bible thumping message plays no game in a woman's decision to the hell she just went through. It's her choice and no court, person, bible or any other religion should ever make a decision for her. And that's just for a rape case. Now, you talked about the choice of having consensual sex. And oops she's pregnant. The guy wants nothing to do with it. It's her choice to keep it or abort it. Logically thinking what's the best case scenario for me with a child or without. There's a lot a woman has to go through mentally and obviously physically that us men will never understand. Therefore no man should be the deciding factor on what's best choice for her. How often do you here a guy say, yes I want you to have that baby in an accidental situation? Sometimes it works out for the best, but majority not. Ultimately it's still her choice.

And giving it up for adoption is no easy thing. It's a massive roll of the dice if you land with quality parents being adopted. A ton of kids never do and go through the system miserably. Some do, like our new RB commit. But bottom line is I have no problem at all with abortion. The number one pollution in the world for decades now is over population. Also, one other thing. Have you not ever asked yourself why on earth do those people have kids? I see it daily. Always feel horrible for those kids in shi**y situations.

I guess that's it...
Click to expand...

The answer to it all goes all the way back to the comment that you made to start your post...the bible thumping message. Overpopulation wouldn't occur if people wouldn't have sex outside of marriage. For those who are married and having children, if they would look to God's message about how to be a father or mother, as well as a husband and wife, then we wouldn't have children being raised in horrible situations (that I too feel terrible about). If those parents looked to God's word and taught their children about it from a very early age, then we would have children growing up loving the Lord and His word; loving, respecting, and OBEYING their parents; and loving mankind, so that they would never want to harm others by despicable acts, such as rape and abortion.

That woman who you spoke of having consensual sex and oops is now pregnant; the mental and physical aspects that she now must go through that a man will never understand with pregnancy...both of them should have thought about the consequences of having consensual sex and possibility of getting pregnant. But since they didn't and now are pregnant, it's ok to not have to face the consequences because the law of the land says it's her choice and is ok to kill that living being inside of her? Acts 5:29 says, "But Peter and the apostles answered, 'We must obey God rather than men.'" Everything that is wrong goes back to sin and the consequences of it. And no, by no means am I saying that I'm perfect, because I'm not. I sin too, but sometimes I face consequences to those sins.

Proverbs 14:12 says, "There is a way that seems right to man, but its end is the way of death."

Today is August 1st...fall camp starts in 3 days. It's almost football time in TN, boys!! GO VOLS! :)
 
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#7,810
#7,810
if life begins at conception, why isnt my birthday the day i was conceived? this conversation is pointless. each side believes the other side is a lost cause, yet the "debate" continues.
 
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#7,811
#7,811
Bring back prohibition. Not sure where I'm going with this, but at one time all abortions were illegal in the US. This didn't stop abortions just like prohibition didn't stop alcohol consumption. As we all agree, abortion is an ugly issue and in a perfect world it would not even be an issue. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world. Far from it.
 
#7,812
#7,812
Ashevolle said:
if life begins at conception, why isnt my birthday the day i was conceived? this conversation is pointless. each side believes the other side is a lost cause, yet the "debate" continues.
Click to expand...

Because it's your "birth"day. My second daughter naturally wouldn't have been born for at least a few more weeks, but we had to induce early for medical reasons. Her birthday was made earlier, but she was still a living being and our sweet baby girl no matter when she was born.
 
#7,813
#7,813
LotteryPick said:
I think some forget there is separation of church and state.
Click to expand...

The supposed separation of church and state is an interpretation that has been twisted to meet modern people's agendas. The actual text says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". That simply means that the government will not establish an official government sponsored religion like the Church of England which the first settlers came here to escape. The language in the constitution says you are free to worship how you want but you cannot prevent others from worshipping how they want either. As long as you don't infringe on the liberty of others or break any laws you can worship how you choose. However, the country was founded by God fearing people and their writings and actions were very much driven by their beliefs.
 
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#7,814
#7,814
Ashevolle said:
if life begins at conception, why isnt my birthday the day i was conceived? this conversation is pointless. each side believes the other side is a lost cause, yet the "debate" continues.
Click to expand...

Do you believe that a one cell ameba is a living thing? It eats and breaths and reproduces. From the instant the sperm and egg connect the cells begin reproducing and developing into a living thing. If a one called ameba is a living creature then a baby that is immediately multiple cells and growing is too. Don't you think so?
 
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#7,815
#7,815
Brillovol said:
Because it's your "birth"day. My second daughter naturally wouldn't have been born for at least a few more weeks, but we had to induce early for medical reasons. Her birthday was made earlier, but she was still a living being and our sweet baby girl no matter when she was born.
Click to expand...

I was being somewhat facetious. However, until a fetus is "viable" and can live outside the womb, the law does not afford it the protections of being alive. There is no clear answer to the question of when life begins and anyone who claims to know with a certainty is being intellectually dishonest. Personally, I wouldn't choose abortion under any circumstances, but it will never be my choice to make.

I believe that life is sacred which is why I'm a vegetarian, but I don't go around slapping T-bone steaks out of other people's mouths either. In the end, other people will choose to live their lives differently than I wish. I can go around pontificating from a place of moral superiority or I can focus on myself. I choose to focus on myself and let the rest sort itself out.
 
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#7,816
#7,816
glichtenwalter said:
Do you believe that a one cell ameba is a living thing? It eats and breaths and reproduces. From the instant the sperm and egg connect the cells begin reproducing and developing into a living thing. If a one called ameba is a living creature then a baby that is immediately multiple cells and growing is too. Don't you think so?
Click to expand...

would you fret over the death of an amoeba?
 
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#7,817
#7,817
#7,818
#7,818
Brillovol said:
I have my spiritual reasons for opposing abortion, but the biggest reason is when I think about seeing and hearing my babies' heartbeats in an ultrasound. When you can detect a heartbeat at 6 weeks, tell me how you can kill that. The same DNA that will be in that person at 80 is created within mere hours of conception. Life is life and killing is killing.

Leave it to man to justify genocide.
Click to expand...

Meh... You're only thinking of your babies and not thinking of someone you're not connected to. It's totally different. I still have no problem aborting that heartbeat at 6 weeks to a rapist's baby or a woman that does not want to raise a child if she's not suited to do it. It's a woman's choice.
 
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#7,821
#7,821
OGbabyaviVol said:
The answer to it all goes all the way back to the comment that you made to start your post...the bible thumping message. Overpopulation wouldn't occur if people wouldn't have sex outside of marriage. For those who are married and having children, if they would look to God's message about how to be a father or mother, as well as a husband and wife, then we wouldn't have children being raised in horrible situations (that I too feel terrible about). If those parents looked to God's word and taught their children about it from a very early age, then we would have children growing up loving the Lord and His word; loving, respecting, and OBEYING their parents; and loving mankind, so that they would never want to harm others by despicable acts, such as rape and abortion.

That woman who you spoke of having consensual sex and oops is now pregnant; the mental and physical aspects that she now must go through that a man will never understand with pregnancy...both of them should have thought about the consequences of having consensual sex and possibility of getting pregnant. But since they didn't and now are pregnant, it's ok to not have to face the consequences because the law of the land says it's her choice and is ok to kill that living being inside of her? Acts 5:29 says, "But Peter and the apostles answered, 'We must obey God rather than men.'" Everything that is wrong goes back to sin and the consequences of it. And no, by no means am I saying that I'm perfect, because I'm not. I sin too, but sometimes I face consequences to those sins.

Proverbs 14:12 says, "There is a way that seems right to man, but its end is the way of death."

Today is August 1st...fall camp starts in 3 days. It's almost football time in TN, boys!! GO VOLS! :)
Click to expand...


Waaay too much religion in this reply. I'll let you be. There's zero point in having a logical discussion if you can't see past your scripture. Which is totally fine. I'm bored with this topic now anyway...
 
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#7,822
#7,822
Ashevolle said:
over time they've shifted towards pro-choice, you're saying?
Click to expand...

The gallup poll is saying the opposite over the last 20 years. 56% were pro-choice in 1995 (or maybe it's 1996) which has now dropped to 46%. Opinions change over time, which is why people have these debates.
 
#7,823
#7,823
Serious conundrum. The right (basically the biblical right) seek to outlaw all abortions. That same right wants to cut social programs (i.e.food stamps). Not sure how many abortions were performed in the U.S. last year, but for debates sake, let's say 1.2 million. Now lets say (also for debates sake), that 80% of that 1.2 million are born to poor, unwed, and in some cases - drug addled baby receptacles. Just out of curiosity, what % of those unwanted babies will end up on the food stamp rolls that the right wants to cut? Then multiply that number by, oh lets say 20 years.
For the record, I abhor abortions, even the mention of it. As a male, it's really none of my business if a woman wants an abortion or not. As a taxpayer, I'd like to think I have a say on how we spend our monies (I know, big dreams).
 
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#7,824
#7,824
KoachKletus said:
Serious conundrum. The right (basically the biblical right) seek to outlaw all abortions. That same right wants to cut social programs (i.e.food stamps). Not sure how many abortions were performed in the U.S. last year, but for debates sake, let's say 1.2 million. Now lets say (also for debates sake), that 80% of that 1.2 million are born to poor, unwed, and in some cases - drug addled baby receptacles. Just out of curiosity, what % of those unwanted babies will end up on the food stamp rolls that the right wants to cut? Then multiply that number by, oh lets say 20 years.
For the record, I abhor abortions, even the mention of it. As a male, it's really none of my business if a woman wants an abortion or not. As a taxpayer, I'd like to think I have a say on how we spend our monies (I know, big dreams).
Click to expand...

You are male and have every right to stand up to injustice regarding life. You help create life. Human right, not a tax burden.

And it's 1.4 million each year, 3,000 a day!
 
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