Ukraine II: The Fight Against Russian Aggression

#501
#501
https://www.rt.com/news/310908-putin-eu-us-politics/

RT report and common reader interpretation:

"That Putin, he ain't a bad guy really. You know, I think he's kind of right. Why should Europe constantly bow down to the US!"

Or,

De-codified Russki Scooby-Doo translation of Putin's interview:

"As what would otherwise be the natural and inevitable regional hegemon, Russia is very disappointed in you Europeans for not bowing down to our will. And if it weren't for those meddling Americans, you would be doing exactly that."
 
#505
#505
volprof said:
Well, come on out here to the coast or the Cascades. It'll only take you about three days to get here.

Unless you're one of those sissy flying people.
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I actually camped in death valley back in the 90's. Lol

The extremes were....extreme!

I hate flying...my wife and I flew just a month after 9/11 to Seattle. There was a middle eastern guy who boarded with a briefcase....he had the dress and head rag to boot. Not gonna lie and say I wasn't leery...

Told the wife, if he gets up to go to the bathroom, I'm going with him...
 
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#507
#507
Pacer92 said:
I actually camped in death valley back in the 90's. Lol

The extremes were....extreme!

I hate flying...my wife and I flew just a month after 9/11 to Seattle. There was a middle eastern guy who boarded with a briefcase....he had the dress and head rag to boot. Not gonna lie and say I wasn't leery...

Told the wife, if he gets up to go to the bathroom, I'm going with him...
Click to expand...

They say that, during the summer, you can hike from the valley floor with temps hovering around the 110s or even 120s up to surrounding mountains (a good trek, no doubt) where, even in the summer, it's no hotter than the 70s. So that's a temp span of 40-50 degrees in the matter of just a few miles.
 
#509
#509
While I think the title quite misleading, you won't read this sort of analysis on completely legitimate news sources like RT or Sputnik.

Russia: A major political turning point is coming - Business Insider

Also, apparently the Security Council is having a vote today on whether or not there should be a UN international tribunal/investigation on the MH17 downing. Russia is expected to veto.

You would think a country with as much evidence concerning how a Ukrainian Nazi fighter pilot shot down MH17, which was loaded with the dead bodies from MH370, wouldn't be against such an official inquiry.

I can't imagine why Russia would be against this.

Can anyone help me? Pacer?
 
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#510
#510
volprof said:
Also, apparently the Security Council is having a vote today on whether or not there should be a UN international tribunal/investigation on the MH17 downing. Russia is expected to veto.
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CLG1ze4WcAAe5tz.jpg:large
 
#511
#511
Velo Vol said:
CLG1ze4WcAAe5tz.jpg:large
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Went as about as well as expected, huh?

Well, Russia is pretty much admitting guilt via veto. There's no other rational explanation for it.

For self-proclaimed champions of human freedom, they have a long way to go.

But that's not their aim. After hundreds of years of getting your ass kicked senseless, Russia has learned that the diplomatic/propaganda game is just as important (maybe even more so) than brute force capability.

Throughout this crisis, including the MH17 downing, Russia's objective has never been to convince everyone. Rather, it's main objective (and the only achievable/strategically possible one) has been to inseminate just enough doubt in the minds of just enough people that Russia can never truly look responsible for the crisis or responsible for the war in eastern Ukraine. At the very least, it prevents a concerted international effort in parrying its objectives and aims.

You have to give it to them. Russians are masters of subterfuge, espionage, and propaganda efforts. When your war record sucks as bad as theirs does, minus wasting nearly 30 million lives to repel the invasion of 3 million troops, you have to get clever.
 
#512
#512
volprof said:
Went as about as well as expected, huh?

Well, Russia is pretty much admitting guilt via veto. There's no other rational explanation for it.

For self-proclaimed champions of human freedom, they have a long way to go.

But that's not their aim. After hundreds of years of getting your ass kicked senseless, Russia has learned that the diplomatic/propaganda game is just as important (maybe even more so) than brute force capability.

Throughout this crisis, including the MH17 downing, Russia's objective has never been to convince everyone. Rather, it's main objective (and the only achievable/strategically possible one) has been to inseminate just enough doubt in the minds of just enough people that Russia can never truly look responsible for the crisis or responsible for the war in eastern Ukraine. At the very least, it prevents a concerted international effort in parrying its objectives and aims.

You have to give it to them. Russians are masters of subterfuge, espionage, and propaganda efforts. When your war record sucks as bad as theirs does, minus wasting nearly 30 million lives to repel the invasion of 3 million troops, you have to get clever.
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while i believe they are guilty, the explanation could easily be, at least to the locals, is that Russia doesn't want their name drug through the mud and that the outcome of any such tribunal would be to declare Russia guilty despite any evidence. Russia will just run a smear campaign against the case, which they have already started, and will continue to deny and change the story, again at least for the locals and that is all that matters. Putin is turning it more and more into a Russia vs the World to consolidate his power.
 
#513
#513
LouderVol said:
while i believe they are guilty, the explanation could easily be, at least to the locals, is that Russia doesn't want their name drug through the mud and that the outcome of any such tribunal would be to declare Russia guilty despite any evidence. Russia will just run a smear campaign against the case, which they have already started, and will continue to deny and change the story, again at least for the locals and that is all that matters. Putin is turning it more and more into a Russia vs the World to consolidate his power.
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Indeed.

So, in other words, Russia did it.
 
#514
#514
volprof said:
Throughout this crisis, including the MH17 downing, Russia's objective has never been to convince everyone. Rather, it's main objective (and the only achievable/strategically possible one) has been to inseminate just enough doubt in the minds of just enough people that Russia can never truly look responsible for the crisis or responsible for the war in eastern Ukraine. At the very least, it prevents a concerted international effort in parrying its objectives and aims.
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Who are they convincing, to use the example of MH17?

Its own people, perhaps.

Are there a great number of people in Germany, England, or America who think Ukraine shot down the plane, thanks to Russia's "information"? I doubt it.
 
#516
#516
Velo Vol said:
Who are they convincing, to use the example of MH17?

Its own people, perhaps.

Are there a great number of people in Germany, England, or America who think Ukraine shot down the plane, thanks to Russia's "information"? I doubt it.
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I wouldn't say a "great number," but enough. Enough to keep the West in check, from Russia's perspective at least.

Heck, just look at this board, as just one example.

Create enough doubt over the US, the West, and their respective "projects," create enough cynicism and self-loathing in the West, and you keep the monkeys off your back, even if you are the one most in the wrong concerning this particular crisis at least.
 
#518
#518
Velo Vol said:
A Russia-aligned fighter, to be precise.
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Yes. I should clarify that, and I think Louder would agree as well.

No, Russia is not behind the shootdown per se. Rather, its careless funding/training (possibly even idiot, poorly trained conscripts) of the rebels for mere short-term expediency (the US knows how this goes, unfortunately) is to blame.
 
#519
#519
volprof said:
I wouldn't say a "great number," but enough. Enough to keep the West in check, from Russia's perspective at least.
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The only audience Putin has to convince is his domestic one.

The U.S./U.K./France/Germany are not reluctant to militarily support Ukraine because there is some great confusion in their populations as to which side is right or wrong. The Western governments are reluctant to lend support because they don't want to become entangled, period.

Even if there was clear and convincing proof that Russia shot down MH17 and was sending tanks into Donbas, America still wouldn't be sending troops there to counter it.
 
#520
#520
Vice News has a new series up on the "cease fire". The first two parts are up if you want to see it.
 
#522
#522
Velo you know Putin can't be held to his word, you can only take what he says right now at face value. unless it makes him or Russia look bad, then you have to ignore it, unless of course America is too blame then it is 100% truth.
 
#525
#525
Velo Vol said:
The only audience Putin has to convince is his domestic one.

The U.S./U.K./France/Germany are not reluctant to militarily support Ukraine because there is some great confusion in their populations as to which side is right or wrong. The Western governments are reluctant to lend support because they don't want to become entangled, period.

Even if there was clear and convincing proof that Russia shot down MH17 and was sending tanks into Donbas, America still wouldn't be sending troops there to counter it.
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Oh, I agree. The reaction on behalf of the West is mostly due to reluctance to become entangled in what would be an un-winable war in Russia's own backyard (and let me tell you, sending 2 or 3 divisions right directly across a flat land border is much easier than sending the same amount of divisions from across 4,000 miles of ocean and a few hundred miles of land afterwards).

To clarify my point, I think Russia's misinformation campaign largely possesses the objective to create just enough cynicism and self-loathing in the West, capitalizing off of the Iraq War debacle, that Western populations will largely keep their governments in check. And, should these governments choose to act with military force, then domestic populations will react with such vitriol (and I wouldn't blame them, quite frankly), that it could potentially be political suicide for any Western government.

Regardless, anyone with a keen eye can look at the Russian propaganda campaign since this crisis started with nothing but admiration. It's been a pure work of art. Perhaps the best we've seen, maybe ever.

It seems to me their weakest point is their handling of the MH17 downing, particularly given Russia's de facto admission of guilt by vetoing a UN tribunal on the shootdown, but everything else they've done has been magnificent. Crimea, for what it's worth, has to be the most masterful land grab in history. Honestly. Of course it didn't hurt that it's majority ethnic Russian, but still. Pure art.
 
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