General Neyland vs Bear Byrant

#76
#76
Boca Vol said:
]But those head to head wins have nothing to do with UT vs. Bama. [/B]Yes, Neyland beat Bryant in every head to head match-up. That's more of a Maryland or UK conversation.

Should Butch go on to string off natty after natty, we're certainly not going to listen to fans from Akron talk about how Akron took UC to school. One has nothing to do with the other.

Neyland's record speaks for itself as does Bryant's. Both were elite coaches.
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And once again, you are the only one saying UT V Bama. BTW, KY had a very good team back then, your Akron reference is b.s.
 
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#77
#77
bamawriter said:
I proclaim "winner" because there is no objective observer, anyone without a bias toward either team, who holds Neyland in more esteem than Bryant. It simply is what it is. You act like head-to-head while one coach was ending his career vs another who was just getting started tells the whole story.

And I bolded part of your statement that you need to rethink.
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My statement should have read numbers by percentage, sorry. The part of yours that I bolded is just a lie
 
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#78
#78
I was more referring to Butch being a young coach(as was Bryant during those days) vs the actual quality of UK or Akron.

BTW you're getting wound up over the Bama thing.

Spurrier today isnt' the same as Spurrier in 1995. Butch beating Spurrier the last 2 seasons while coaching at USCjr., isn't the same as beating Spurrier in the mid-90's. I'm sure Phil Fulmer would love to chime in on this.
 
#79
#79
Boca Vol said:
I was more referring to Butch being a young coach(as was Bryant during those days) vs the actual quality of UK or Akron.

BTW you're getting wound up over the Bama thing.

Spurrier today isnt' the same as Spurrier in 1995. Butch beating Spurrier the last 2 seasons while coaching at USCjr., isn't the same as beating Spurrier in the mid-90's. I'm sure Phil Fulmer would love to chime in on this.
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This is absolutely true. And goes to B.E.N.'s statement earlier in this thread.

You can't (yet, anyway) say Butch is a better coach than Spurrier. Not over a lifetime. Steve has achieved far more. But it may be true that Butch is a better coach today than Steve is today. Butch was certainly the better coach with the better team on two football fields on two specific days over the past two years.

Time will tell, of course, whether Butch has greater lifetime achievement than Steve. It's a long order, Spurrier has achieved much in his career.
 
#80
#80
Boca Vol said:
I was more referring to Butch being a young coach(as was Bryant during those days) vs the actual quality of UK or Akron.

BTW you're getting wound up over the Bama thing.

Spurrier today isnt' the same as Spurrier in 1995. Butch beating Spurrier the last 2 seasons while coaching at USCjr., isn't the same as beating Spurrier in the mid-90's. I'm sure Phil Fulmer would love to chime in on this.
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You're correct about one thing, I do get wound up over this He earned it. Neyland has an early coaching career also. I have no problem using his first seven years.. No excuses to make for him.
 
#81
#81
bamawriter said:
I proclaim "winner" because there is no objective observer, anyone without a bias toward either team, who holds Neyland in more esteem than Bryant. It simply is what it is. You act like head-to-head while one coach was ending his career vs another who was just getting started tells the whole story.

And I bolded part of your statement that you need to rethink.
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Still not oranges to oranges. Neyland rebuilt his team several times after stints in the military. Bryant's record was over consecutive years. Neyland still has a better record winning percentage. If Neyland had coached 27 consecutive years his percentage would have been even better.
 
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#83
#83
I know Boca has a lot of knowledge of fb history, so this is more for anyone who may not be aware...
Neyland first seven years in coaching or as Boca referenced those 7 years for Bryant "a young coach"
8-1

8-0-1

9-0-1

9-0-1

9-1

9-0-1

9-0-1
Pretty darn good.
 
#84
#84
chargervol said:
You're correct about one thing, I do get wound up over this He earned it. Neyland has an early coaching career also. I have no problem using his first seven years.. No excuses to make for him.
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I think that's part of the problem. I remember Bryant coaching. I was at the UT/Bama game in '82 and I'll never forget seeing Bryant leaning against the goalpost during warmups.

That was 30 years AFTER Neyland coached. Time is an interesting thing. I'm sure many coaches puffed their chests beating Penn St. in 2005-10. Not the same as beating Paterno in the 70's-80's.
 
#85
#85
bamawriter said:
BS, you doubled down on the incorrect statement one sentence later.
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No, if you understand what I meant in the first statement, the second one makes perfect sense.

LOL, my son was watching a cartoon called Gumball the other day and when losing the factual web arguement one character looked at the other and said "Did he spell anything wrong? If so, use that to distract him"..

Good job:good!:
 
#86
#86
onevol74 said:
Still not oranges to oranges. Neyland rebuilt his team several times after stints in the military. Bryant's record was over consecutive years. Neyland still has a better record winning percentage. If Neyland had coached 27 consecutive years his percentage would have been even better.
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The last statement cannot be said with any certainty. Neyland's winning percentage dropped after the conference split because he no longer had the William and Marys of the world in conference. There's also no telling how he would have done in the two platoon system, which he fought against tooth-and-nail.
 
#87
#87
chargervol said:
No, if you understand what I meant in the first statement, the second one makes perfect sense.

LOL, my son was watching a cartoon called Gumball the other day and when losing the factual web arguement one character looked at the other and said "Did he spell anything wrong? If so, use that to distract him"..

Good job:good!:
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You said won more games twice and even differentiated that from "percentage". You didn't lack clarity, you spouted BS.
 
#88
#88
Boca Vol said:
I think that's part of the problem. I remember Bryant coaching. I was at the UT/Bama game in '82 and I'll never forget seeing Bryant leaning against the goalpost during warmups.

That was 30 years AFTER Neyland coached. Time is an interesting thing. I'm sure many coaches puffed their chests beating Penn St. in 2005-10. Not the same as beating Paterno in the 70's-80's.
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I agree as long as you realize that works both ways. Bryant dominating the south after Neyland was gone, is no reason for some to make some wild assumption that he was better. You can say young or this team/that team. He had seven years to beat the Gen..... Jones will not be given seven years to lose to the same coach then be called "better" after that coach retires.
 
#89
#89
bamawriter said:
You said won more games twice and even differentiated that from "percentage". You didn't lack clarity, you spouted BS.
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I am well aware of Neyland playing in fewer games ( a small part of that because he was a real hero, gone for war) If you wish to pretend I meant something else, feel free. But I don't believe you will trick anyone here into ignoring your tactic. You completely dropped the conversation that we were actually debating while fixating on my typo/error.
 
#90
#90
chargervol said:
I agree as long as you realize that works both ways. Bryant dominating the south after Neyland was gone, is no reason for some to make some wild assumption that he was better. You can say young or this team/that team. He had seven years to beat the Gen..... Jones will not be given seven years to lose to the same coach then be called "better" after that coach retires.
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Let's say Jones beats Spurrier for the next three years, and then Spurrier retires. That puts Jones at 5-0 over Spurrier Then Jones coaches at UT for a total of 15 years and wins 2 SEC titles and a total of 125 games along the way. Is Jones greater than Spurrier?
 
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#91
#91
chargervol said:
I agree as long as you realize that works both ways. Bryant dominating the south after Neyland was gone, is no reason for some to make some wild assumption that he was better. You can say young or this team/that team. He had seven years to beat the Gen..... Jones will not be given seven years to lose to the same coach then be called "better" after that coach retires.
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I tend to agree with you. Neyland & Bryant, while they coached against each other, really coached in different eras.

Both are outstanding coaches. UT fans will side with Neyland while Bama fans will side with Bryant. Both sides can strong arguments for both, but the bottom line is both are elite.
 
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#92
#92
chargervol said:
I am well aware of Neyland playing in fewer games ( a small part of that because he was a real hero, gone for war) If you wish to pretend I meant something else, feel free. But I don't believe you will trick anyone here into ignoring your tactic. You completely dropped the conversation that we were actually debating while fixating on my typo/error.
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Not true. I just replied to you before seeing this.
 
#93
#93
bamawriter said:
Let's say Jones beats Spurrier for the next three years, and the Spurrier retires. That puts Jones at 5-0 over Spurrier Then Jones coaches at UT for a total of 15 years and wins 2 SEC titles and a total of 125 games along the way. Is Jones greater than Spurrier?
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Under those conditions, Jones is greater, yes, of course. He went 5-0 vs Spurrier in your scenario. He proved it on the field, the only way anything is ever really proven in football.

Boca Vol said:
I tend to agree with you. Neyland & Bryant, while they coached against each other, really coached in different eras.

Both are outstanding coaches. UT fans will side with Neyland while Bama fans will side with Bryant. Both sides can strong arguments for both, but the bottom line is both are elite.
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Absolutely true, and well said.

Just, Neyland is better. :p
 
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#94
#94
VFL-82-JP said:
Jones is of course greater, yes. He went 5-0 vs Spurrier, in your scenario. He proved it on the field, the only way anything is ever really proven in football.



Absolutely true, and well said.

Just, Neyland is better. :p
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Being a UT fan...I agree! :rock:
 
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#95
#95
bamawriter said:
Let's say Jones beats Spurrier for the next three years, and then Spurrier retires. That puts Jones at 5-0 over Spurrier Then Jones coaches at UT for a total of 15 years and wins 2 SEC titles and a total of 125 games along the way. Is Jones greater than Spurrier?
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What???They play a different number of games now and winning an SEC title was not exactly always an option for Neyland. But you already know that, I see what you are trying to do. If Jones ends up never losing to Spurrier in seven years and wins more games than Spurrier (percentage wise!!!!) over their careers -

#1 he will most likely have more than 2 sec titles under our current system and while their could be futuristic circumstances that I can't account for...

#2 If he wins more (%) than Spurrier, most likely yes.
Not to mention, I would be a happy MF'er
 
#96
#96
Besides, the argument had been made that Neyland had better teams than Bryant in their match ups. Way too soon to know the future of Jones but so far, he has beaten spurrier after starting the season as an underdog to S.C. Tells us nothing about the future, but in the context of the debate, at least Jones has a decent start.
 
#99
#99
chargervol said:
What???They play a different number of games now and winning an SEC title was not exactly always an option for Neyland. But you already know that, I see what you are trying to do. If Jones ends up never losing to Spurrier in seven years and wins more games than Spurrier (percentage wise!!!!) over their careers -

#1 he will most likely have more than 2 sec titles under our current system and while their could be futuristic circumstances that I can't account for...

#2 If he wins more (%) than Spurrier, most likely yes.
Not to mention, I would be a happy MF'er
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I scaled it so that Spurrier's numbers of titles and wins compared to Jones would be roughly equivalent to Bryant's compared to Neyland's. I wasn't trying to shortchange any particular coach with that hypothetical.
 
#100
#100
chargervol said:
Besides, the argument had been made that Neyland had better teams than Bryant in their match ups. Way too soon to know the future of Jones but so far, he has beaten spurrier after starting the season as an underdog to S.C. Tells us nothing about the future, but in the context of the debate, at least Jones has a decent start.
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I agree with that. It's also worth saying that if Jones turns UT completely around, it would be an even more significant sign of his coaching prowess than if he'd taken over a decent situation.

Spurrier gets praise not only for what he did at UF, but for dragging programs like Duke and USCe out of the cellar.
 
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