Religious Disaffiliation in the US

#253
#253
Ive never seen a man wear a hat in church so i cant speak to that. That said..no provocative attire has place in church. If your clothing is revealing then you are dressed inappropriately for worship IMO. Do i believe a longtime believer should clean up for service? yes. Do i believe visitors should be treated with Christs love and preached the biblical Truth? Yes. Theres a reason we sing "JUST AS I AM" About 5000 times a year. The devil uses the excuse of someone not being ready to get right with God to send people to Hell in droves. Cant tell you how many people Ive heard say "I just have to clean some things up in my life before i can get in church." Thats arse backwards. Get in a bible believing people loving church and let the Lord reveal to you what needs done in your life...and let Him give you the tools and wisdom to get it done. The devil is the slyest of enemies. He is thousands of years old..he plays on peoples weaknesses and feeds them lies. He is the father of lies. Listen to "waiting on the night to fall" by casting crowns. Its about that old man thats been filling up Hell since he fell.
 
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#256
#256
Roustabout said:
"Yes," she said. "I did pray and I did ask the Lord."
"Well, what did he say ask the preacher?"

"He said he didnt have a clue what I should wear since he had never been inside that church."
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If the Lord told that lady he has never been inside that church, she should find herself another church to attend.

Think about it Roust. God lives in the hearts of believers. If the believers are gathered inside that building, then God has been inside that building.
 
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#257
#257
Gramps said:
If the Lord told that lady he has never been inside that church, she should find herself another church to attend.

Think about it Roust. God lives in the hearts of believers. If the believers are gathered inside that building, then God has been inside that building.
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That's exactly my point. WherEVER two or more are gathered.....
What does wearing a hat have to do with that?
Nothing.
 
#258
#258
Roustabout said:
That's exactly my point. WherEVER two or more are gathered.....
What does wearing a hat have to do with that?
Nothing.
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i think the point he is making is that its a mindset. When two or three are gathered in my name, i am there also. (paraphrased) if you are gathering "in the name" of something you should come ready. especially in the right mindset, ie ready to shut out other things. Part of getting yourself ready is a "purifying" process (getting clean both mind and body and soul) so that you can go in with the right mindset. if you have on a ball cap, or revealing clothes it implies to me that you have something else on your mind other than God, and therefore you are not really gathering in his name. I kind of relate it to going to work, while we don't have a dress code, hats aren't "acceptable", it has nothing to do with my performance and nothing to do with me meeting with clients, its about me showing i am serious about what i am doing, which includes my dress.

now, does wearing a ball cap make it impossible for you to gather in his name, probably not. does that lady wearing an open backed dress three rows in front of me make it more difficult for my mindset to be in the right place yes, but again not impossible.
 
#259
#259
LouderVol said:
i think the point he is making is that its a mindset. When two or three are gathered in my name, i am there also. (paraphrased) if you are gathering "in the name" of something you should come ready. especially in the right mindset, ie ready to shut out other things. Part of getting yourself ready is a "purifying" process (getting clean both mind and body and soul) so that you can go in with the right mindset. if you have on a ball cap, or revealing clothes it implies to me that you have something else on your mind other than God, and therefore you are not really gathering in his name. I kind of relate it to going to work, while we don't have a dress code, hats aren't "acceptable", it has nothing to do with my performance and nothing to do with me meeting with clients, its about me showing i am serious about what i am doing, which includes my dress.

now, does wearing a ball cap make it impossible for you to gather in his name, probably not. does that lady wearing an open backed dress three rows in front of me make it more difficult for my mindset to be in the right place yes, but again not impossible.
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Sorry, but your mindset is wrong. Here is why. The old way was that people had to purify themselves (ceremonially) to come before The Lord. There was separation. Did Jesus tear down the wall of separation, yes or no? The difference today is that you don't have to get ready. Not physically. You are made ready. "Or do you not know that your body is a temple?" How does one sanctify themselves today? Go to church? Not wear a hat? Really? Or, is it by trusting that Christ has sanctified us once and for all? Hebrews 10:10

Sure, a congregation may have tradition, and if we CHOOSE to fellowship there then out of good manners, we ought to respect this practice. Read Galatians 2. But some churches don't honor such traditions. Their tradition is to come as you are. Shorts, ball cap, etc. What you are saying is they are WRONG. That they are less fit to worship The Lord because of what is on the outside. You need to repent. Abandon your wrong thinking. That is why the first words recorded from Jesus are "repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." The Pharisees refused to abandon their religious practice and tradition to embrace their Messiah.

Modest clothing should ALWAYS be worn. But it has nothing to do with this subject. What is the point in dressing like a slut Monday through Saturday and then dressing like a nun on Sunday. Hey, now you are OK in God's eyes! Further, how do you measure? What is considered modest today would be quite provocative in many cultures.
 
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#260
#260
Roustabout said:
Sorry, but your mindset is wrong. Here is why. The old way was that people had to purify themselves (ceremonially) to come before The Lord. There was separation. Did Jesus tear down the wall of separation, yes or no? The difference today is that you don't have to get ready. Not physically. You are made ready. "Or do you not know that your body is a temple?" How does one sanctify themselves today? Go to church? Not wear a hat? Really? Or, is it by trusting that Christ has sanctified us once and for all? Hebrews 10:10

Sure, a congregation may have tradition, and if we CHOOSE to fellowship there then out of good manners, we ought to respect this practice. Read Galatians 2. But some churches don't honor such traditions. Their tradition is to come as you are. Shorts, ball cap, etc. What you are saying is they are WRONG. That they are less fit to worship The Lord because of what is on the outside. You need to repent. Abandon your wrong thinking. That is why the first words recorded from Jesus are "repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." The Pharisees refused to abandon their religious practice and tradition to embrace their Messiah.

Modest clothing should ALWAYS be worn. But it has nothing to do with this subject. What is the point in dressing like a slut Monday through Saturday and then dressing like a nun on Sunday. Hey, now you are OK in God's eyes! Further, how do you measure? What is considered modest today would be quite provocative in many cultures.
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Did not know that.........thought it was something else
 
#261
#261
Roustabout said:
Sorry, but your mindset is wrong. Here is why. The old way was that people had to purify themselves (ceremonially) to come before The Lord. There was separation. Did Jesus tear down the wall of separation, yes or no? The difference today is that you don't have to get ready. Not physically. You are made ready. "Or do you not know that your body is a temple?" How does one sanctify themselves today? Go to church? Not wear a hat? Really? Or, is it by trusting that Christ has sanctified us once and for all? Hebrews 10:10

Sure, a congregation may have tradition, and if we CHOOSE to fellowship there then out of good manners, we ought to respect this practice. Read Galatians 2. But some churches don't honor such traditions. Their tradition is to come as you are. Shorts, ball cap, etc. What you are saying is they are WRONG. That they are less fit to worship The Lord because of what is on the outside. You need to repent. Abandon your wrong thinking. That is why the first words recorded from Jesus are "repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." The Pharisees refused to abandon their religious practice and tradition to embrace their Messiah.

Modest clothing should ALWAYS be worn. But it has nothing to do with this subject. What is the point in dressing like a slut Monday through Saturday and then dressing like a nun on Sunday. Hey, now you are OK in God's eyes! Further, how do you measure? What is considered modest today would be quite provocative in many cultures.
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Was that on vinyl or 8 track?
 
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#263
#263
Mtntrout said:
See, I knew we had something in common.
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I doubt we are coming at it from the same angle.

I believe he existed, he is the son of God and our savior. I just don't happen to care if he would have cared about ball caps in Church. I doubt it was much of an issue in his day.
 
#264
#264
Here goes roustabout going on again how everybody is wrong but him. And everybody is teaching the Word of God incorrect but him.
 
#265
#265
RollinVol said:
Here goes roustabout going on again how everybody is wrong but him. And everybody is teaching the Word of God incorrect but him.
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Unfortunately for him, he might want to check his facts a little better. His attitude and how he approaches people about Christianity is a prime example of how many people get pushed away from it and have a sour taste about it
 
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#266
#266
BearCat204 said:
Unfortunately for him, he might want to check his facts a little better. His attitude and how he approaches people about Christianity is a prime example of how many people get pushed away from it and have a sour taste about it
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yeah. incorrect is his ways. but like i said. he believes everybody is wrong but him. i wish we had a religion forum on here.
 
#267
#267
I have been wrong and will be wrong again.

There are plenty of subjects I don't comment on because I simply lack the knowledge or they don't interest me.
All you are doing is attacking me personally, not my argument. It's an ad hominem and is totally hypocritical in addition to being a underhanded tactic.

Attacking people personally drives them away. If I attack someone personally, then please by all means, call me out of it. If I provide an argument you think is wrong or in error, please feel welcome to show me where I'm wrong. Some of my best friends on the internet have helped me see errors in my reasoning, or provide me a new perspective to evaluate a position.
 
#268
#268
hog88 said:
I doubt we are coming at it from the same angle.

I believe he existed, he is the son of God and our savior. I just don't happen to care if he would have cared about ball caps in Church. I doubt it was much of an issue in his day.
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I am a member of a very casual Presbyterian Church. Coming dressed up in a suit and tie like some churches is definitely not required. I've also seen people wear caps/hats in church. I personally think it is tacky to wear a hat in a holy building like a church but I also don't cast judgement on those that do as the church has more important things to attend to. That being said, some people might like their churches more traditional and that is certainly their prerogative.
 
#269
#269
theFallGuy said:
I am a member of a very casual Presbyterian Church. Coming dressed up in a suit and tie like some churches is definitely not required. I've also seen people wear caps/hats in church. I personally think it is tacky to wear a hat in a holy building like a church but I also don't cast judgement on those that do as the church has more important things to attend to. That being said, some people might like their churches more traditional and that is certainly their prerogative.
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I'm good with casual, jeans and a polo type. I do pass my own judgement on the hat issue, I believe it goes to a severe lack of upbringing. If that offends anyone so be it.
 
#270
#270
I view this kind of thing (dress code for church) as equivalent to the matters of conscience Paul dealt with in Romans 14 and 1 Cor 8. I think this would probably be pertinent to the conversation.

Romans 14:1 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. 2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
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The 'legalists' among us may want to consider who Paul is calling the 'weak' person, and weak faith. The 'liberty' folks may want to notice that not all liberties are to be exercised for the sake of the 'weak in faith'.
 
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#271
#271
Roustabout said:
Sorry, but your mindset is wrong. Here is why. The old way was that people had to purify themselves (ceremonially) to come before The Lord. There was separation. Did Jesus tear down the wall of separation, yes or no?
Click to expand...

Yes, Jesus did tear down the wall of separation. I think it was for a different reason than you are describing in your post.

That wall was torn down as part of the way to change us from living under the law to the grace system.

The priest were all that was allowed to be in the most holy part of the Temple. We no longer need a priest to intervene for us. Jesus is the only mediator their is between man and the Father. No man can or has the authority to tell anyone their sins are forgiven.




The difference today is that you don't have to get ready. Not physically. You are made ready. "Or do you not know that your body is a temple?" How does one sanctify themselves today? Go to church? Not wear a hat? Really? Or, is it by trusting that Christ has sanctified us once and for all? Hebrews 10:10
Click to expand...


How did people have to get ready physically under the law?

They were required to offer their finest livestock etc as a offering to be forgiven their sins. Many did not, they chose to offer their worse.

You are all wrapped up on this hat thing. You actually started the debate because I said people should respect the House of God. It is my opinion that one should show respect when they attend church. I am old fashioned. As I said earlier, I do not think we should wear a suit and tie but we should go dressed in a respectful manner. Nothing you can say will change my opinion.
I also said the way someone is dressed will not keep Christ from being present. IMO, there are things in this world that deserve respect, Church is one of those places. If you feel otherwise, so be it. God granted us the free will to believe the way we choose. Will someone wearing shorts or a hat in church keep them from being saved? No it will not. It is just respectful to dress a little nicer than one would if they were spending the day on the lake

Sure, a congregation may have tradition, and if we CHOOSE to fellowship there then out of good manners, we ought to respect this practice. Read Galatians 2. But some churches don't honor such traditions. Their tradition is to come as you are. Shorts, ball cap, etc. What you are saying is they are WRONG. That they are less fit to worship The Lord because of what is on the outside. You need to repent. Abandon your wrong thinking. That is why the first words recorded from Jesus are "repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." The Pharisees refused to abandon their religious practice and tradition to embrace their Messiah.

Modest clothing should ALWAYS be worn. But it has nothing to do with this subject. What is the point in dressing like a slut Monday through Saturday and then dressing like a nun on Sunday. Hey, now you are OK in God's eyes! Further, how do you measure? What is considered modest today would be quite provocative in many cultures.
Click to expand...

Roust, I sincerely think you are simply wanting to argue.

The way we live our lives Monday through Saturday has a much greater meaning than how we present ourselves on Sunday.
One can live a Godly life Monday -Saturday and drawn people to Christ. These people are God's soldiers

One can live an ungodly life Monday through Saturday then pretend to be a Christian on Sunday and drive people away from Christ. These people are hypocrites.
 
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#273
#273
Roustabout said:
Sorry, but your mindset is wrong. Here is why. The old way was that people had to purify themselves (ceremonially) to come before The Lord. There was separation. Did Jesus tear down the wall of separation, yes or no? The difference today is that you don't have to get ready. Not physically. You are made ready. "Or do you not know that your body is a temple?" How does one sanctify themselves today? Go to church? Not wear a hat? Really? Or, is it by trusting that Christ has sanctified us once and for all? Hebrews 10:10

Sure, a congregation may have tradition, and if we CHOOSE to fellowship there then out of good manners, we ought to respect this practice. Read Galatians 2. But some churches don't honor such traditions. Their tradition is to come as you are. Shorts, ball cap, etc. What you are saying is they are WRONG. That they are less fit to worship The Lord because of what is on the outside. You need to repent. Abandon your wrong thinking. That is why the first words recorded from Jesus are "repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." The Pharisees refused to abandon their religious practice and tradition to embrace their Messiah.

Modest clothing should ALWAYS be worn. But it has nothing to do with this subject. What is the point in dressing like a slut Monday through Saturday and then dressing like a nun on Sunday. Hey, now you are OK in God's eyes! Further, how do you measure? What is considered modest today would be quite provocative in many cultures.
Click to expand...

LouderVol said:
now, does wearing a ball cap make it impossible for you to gather in his name, probably not. does that lady wearing an open backed dress three rows in front of me make it more difficult for my mindset to be in the right place yes, but again not impossible.
Click to expand...

covered this. how you are dressed doesn't affect how "prepared you are" its just a visual representation that you take whatever it is seriously by dressing accordingly. and when i was talking about purifying i wasn't implying changing your clothes made you a better person.

when you are praying/reading the bible/whatever else you do as a non Church going Christian, what are you thinking about while doing it? Do you shut everything else out, and at least try to focus only on God? Do you have a specific place you go, not always but a preferred place? do you jam to non Christian music while reading? have a movie playing in the back ground, checking your phone for VN updates? its all about the mindset you are in, yet each thing individually has nothing to do with worshiping/reading/praying/faith.

i think of it as little "r" ritual. when getting ready for a soccer game I tie my cleats on a specific way to get in the mindset, when studying for a test i listen to music i like on low volume to get me in a mindset and "ready" for what is coming next.

do you have a little "r" ritual? i would imagine you do, what makes yours any more valid than mine or someone else's that goes to church. its all personal, if that is what works for me why does it bother you?
 
#274
#274
Gramps said:
Yes, Jesus did tear down the wall of separation. I think it was for a different reason than you are describing in your post.

That wall was torn down as part of the way to change us from living under the law to the grace system.

The priest were all that was allowed to be in the most holy part of the Temple. We no longer need a priest to intervene for us. Jesus is the only mediator their is between man and the Father. No man can or has the authority to tell anyone their sins are forgiven.
Click to expand...
Ok. What does this have to do with wearing a hat in a church building?
Gramps, you compared the Jerusalem temple to the modern church house. I'm sorry, but I think it's a bad comparison.

How did people have to get ready physically under the law?

They were required to offer their finest livestock etc as a offering to be forgiven their sins. Many did not, they chose to offer their worse
Click to expand...
Can you clarify what you are saying. Are you trying to say that someone wearing a hat is comparable to bringing your worst?

You are all wrapped up on this hat thing. You actually started the debate because I said people should respect the House of God. It is my opinion that one should show respect when they attend church. I am old fashioned. As I said earlier, I do not think we should wear a suit and tie but we should go dressed in a respectful manner. Nothing you can say will change my opinion.
Click to expand...
I could care less if a church has a higher standard of dress or is come as you are. Crush's point was perfect.
When someone says they don't like people wearing hats in church, fine. That is an issue of tradition. When they attempt to say that it interferes with our relationship or access to worship then I have a major problem.


I also said the way someone is dressed will not keep Christ from being present. IMO, there are things in this world that deserve respect, Church is one of those places. If you feel otherwise, so be it. God granted us the free will to believe the way we choose. Will someone wearing shorts or a hat in church keep them from being saved? No it will not. It is just respectful to dress a little nicer than one would if they were spending the day on the lake
Click to expand...
Respectful is another issue. If a church practices a formal dress, then sure. But churches have moved away from that, and continue to do so. I hear people regularly complain about churches that are casual in it's practice and dress. I know, I used to be one. I'm more comfortable dressing nice, but that is simply personal preference. I still take my hat off when I pray. It doesn't actually bring me closer to God.

I taught children's Sunday school for over 12 years. Many kids would wear shorts, ball caps, flip flops etc. It used to really bother me. Then I thought, who am I to judge. These kids are comfortable. They wear flip flops, ball caps to school and at home. Why should I give them the impression that God is far off and that our dress is needed to draw us close. Instead, I wanted my kids to feel "at home" in the church house.

Further, you will never hear the term "church" used to describe a place. The church is the people. The early church met in homes for the most part. So, when you say "in church," I have problems with the whole notion.

Roust, I sincerely think you are simply wanting to argue.

The way we live our lives Monday through Saturday has a much greater meaning than how we present ourselves on Sunday.
One can live a Godly life Monday -Saturday and drawn people to Christ. These people are God's soldiers
Click to expand...

I want to argue against anything I see as meaningless and useless traditions that have alienated the church from the lost. For too long the church has confused it's tradition and practice for things that are sacred, and quite frankly I've lost my patience with it. And I don't mean to direct that towards you, personally. I apologize if I've offended. But we need to really rethink things, or before long the church in the US will look like Europe. Empty buildings.

I have the privilege of going into the urban communities every week to preach the gospel. I've done this for 10 years and let me assure you that we have 'church,' and more so than most places do on Sunday morning. Many of these same people want nothing to do with your (I'm using 'your' in a general sense) idea of church. Sorry if that offends.

One can live an ungodly life Monday through Saturday then pretend to be a Christian on Sunday and drive people away from Christ. These people are hypocrites.
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Gramps, that's the point. A person can dress nice, look nice, and conform to everything we see as 'decent' and be a complete hypocrite. BTW, we are all hypocrites. What does the bible say. God doesn't judge by what is on the outside, but......
 
#275
#275
LouderVol said:
covered this. how you are dressed doesn't affect how "prepared you are" its just a visual representation that you take whatever it is seriously by dressing accordingly. and when i was talking about purifying i wasn't implying changing your clothes made you a better person.

when you are praying/reading the bible/whatever else you do as a non Church going Christian, what are you thinking about while doing it? Do you shut everything else out, and at least try to focus only on God? Do you have a specific place you go, not always but a preferred place? do you jam to non Christian music while reading? have a movie playing in the back ground, checking your phone for VN updates? its all about the mindset you are in, yet each thing individually has nothing to do with worshiping/reading/praying/faith.

i think of it as little "r" ritual. when getting ready for a soccer game I tie my cleats on a specific way to get in the mindset, when studying for a test i listen to music i like on low volume to get me in a mindset and "ready" for what is coming next.

do you have a little "r" ritual? i would imagine you do, what makes yours any more valid than mine or someone else's that goes to church. its all personal, if that is what works for me why does it bother you?
Click to expand...
I wear a helmet when I pray and read the bible.
 
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