Religious Disaffiliation in the US

#101
#101
508mikey said:
I got mad and quit going because the Vols started losing in football in 2008
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St. John's Episcopal downtown Knoxville... I remember being a kid and peeing next to Phil Fulmer in the bathroom. We lost to Wyoming the following week.
 
#105
#105
Overall, church and religion have very positive influences on our society. Part of the reason people doubt that is that media coverage is so jaded about it.

A congregation volunteers to work a soup kitchen for a week and maybe there's two paragraphs in page 11D of the style section. A preacher has a fling using donations for s trip to Vegas and it's front page for a week.

Look around. Churches by and large are doing great things.
 
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#111
#111
Roustabout said:
The question this begs is on what ontological grounds?
I agree, we ought to be good? But why? And what parameters define good?
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You asked me this question once, and I can't remember getting around to answering it.

I think good will to your fellow man can be chalked up to the maximization of pleasure and minimization of pain for those around you, and 99% of the time, that starts with doing so for yourself.

So, doing well for yourself without causing pain to others. I think that's "good."
 
#112
#112
Kingston Vol said:
I guess you could say I've been disaffiliated all my life. My family has never been consistent church goers, although we call ourselves Baptists. I'm in the "younger" crowd as well, and I think the disconnect we've had with Christianity is that we've grown up with gay people in class. Our best friends are black, Arab, Muslim, Jewish, etc. And although I don't think Christianity was ever meant to hate anyone, it is certainly preached that way today. (At least in my experience in the South.)

I couldn't bring myself to believe in something that tore others down for things they couldn't control - homosexuality, the color of their skin, their families' religion, etc.

Basically, I believe in a higher power for sure. What that higher power is is something we'll probably never know until we get there. But I believe we can connect with that higher power through good deeds, love, compassion, happiness and other positive qualities. There has to be a reason we were given consciousness and the ability to feel these things.



And just as a side note: I've been doing a lot of research into DMT, the spirit molecule. I think that might be the basis of our humanity and how we connect with the world around us, but I mean, who know really? We'll find out one day.
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There is nothing in the NT that preaches or teaches we (Christians) are to hate anyone because they don't agree with us. In fact, the NT explicitly teaches us to love even our enemy and to pray for them. Are you saying you grew up being taught that you are to do the opposite of what the NT teaches?

The problem with what you are saying (in bold) is that it is based on your feelings and not in objective truth. Pagans might say they connect to a higher power through human sacrifice, or another group might say they connect by sexual experiences. Who is to say what is true? How do you ground "positive?"
 
#113
#113
Roustabout said:
There is nothing in the NT that preaches or teaches we (Christians) are to hate anyone because they don't agree with us. In fact, the NT explicitly teaches us to love even our enemy and to pray for them. Are you saying you grew up being taught that you are to do the opposite of what the NT teaches?

The problem with what you are saying (in bold) is that it is based on your feelings and not in objective truth. Pagans might say they connect to a higher power through human sacrifice, or another group might say they connect by sexual experiences. Who is to say what is true? How do you ground "positive?"
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I think my previous post is a viable response to this.

Now, when dealing in terms of sacrifice or protection, and causing pain to someone is necessary to mitigate the pain they would otherwise intend to inflict upon others, I think, cumulatively, that is maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain for everyone else.
 
#114
#114
I'm not sure I have a definition for good, but as for why we should do good...it's in our best interest and in the interest of others. When people don't do good it's generally because they don't know what's in their best interest or they lost sight of what's in their best interest.
 
#115
#115
DinkinFlicka said:
You asked me this question once, and I can't remember getting around to answering it.

I think good will to your fellow man can be chalked up to the maximization of pleasure and minimization of pain for those around you, and 99% of the time, that starts with doing so for yourself.

So, doing well for yourself without causing pain to others. I think that's "good."
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I understand, but how do you ground that? It's subjective and arbitrary. On what grounds do you say that your view is BETTER than 'might is right?'
Also, are you saying that pain is objectively bad and pleasure is objectively good?
 
#116
#116
Kingston Vol said:
And just as a side note: I've been doing a lot of research into DMT, the spirit molecule. I think that might be the basis of our humanity and how we connect with the world around us, but I mean, who know really? We'll find out one day.
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I honestly found more of a spiritual connection in ayahuasca than DMT. In fact, I didn't feel anything outside of a brief, psychedelic experience in the latter.

Ayahuasca made me feel beyond feeling. I wept for hours, and it was beautiful. I felt so equally connected with both nature and the people I was with.

Not to derail the thread, but I thought it was worth mentioning.
 
#117
#117
n_huffhines said:
I'm not sure I have a definition for good, but as for why we should do good...it's in our best interest and in the interest of others. When people don't do good it's generally because they don't know what's in their best interest or they lost sight of what's in their best interest.
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Maybe it's in my best interest to propagate my DNA, and eliminate competition. Maybe that is what is best and you've simply lost sight of cold hard reality. "Best" is a term that needs grounding. Otherwise it is arbitrary. Hitler thought it was best to eliminate the Jewish race.
 
#118
#118
Roustabout said:
I understand, but how do you ground that? It's subjective and arbitrary. On what grounds do you say that your view is BETTER than 'might is right?'
Also, are you saying that pain is objectively bad and pleasure is objectively good?
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Can you rephrase your first question? I find that pleasure and pain are as objective and basic as it gets.

Fire is painful.
Warmth is pleasurable.

That is why utilitarians use them as indicators of good and bad.
 
#119
#119
Roustabout said:
Maybe it's in my best interest to propagate my DNA, and eliminate competition. Maybe that is what is best and you've simply lost sight of cold hard reality. "Best" is a term that needs grounding. Otherwise it is arbitrary. Hitler thought it was best to eliminate the Jewish race.
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I agree. Terms such as: better, good, worse, bad are subjective. Which is why I go back to the two most basic feelings a mammal can experience: pleasure and pain.
 
#120
#120
DinkinFlicka said:
Can you rephrase your first question? I find that pleasure and pain are as objective and basic as it gets.

Fire is painful.
Warmth is pleasurable.

That is why utilitarians use them as indicators of good and bad.
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I'm not saying that they aren't in some sense indicators. But it doesn't answer why? Ever heard of a sadist? Not exactly objective. Or, what about our armed forces. Should they eliminate pain for pleasure, or is there an actual benefit of pain given the proper context? Either way, it assumes that our senses are grounds for objective truth. Well, that is by nature, subjective, even with a consensus. Your statement has no ontological grounding.

Childbirth is one of the most painful experiences known. It isn't the pain or childbirth or the pleasure of a new born that make it valuable. I'd argue that pain, in the proper context, is both beneficial and necessary. Sure, we'd agree that we shouldn't seek to inflict undue pain on others, but it doesn't answer, 'why?'
One could just as easily argue that it would be worth it to eliminate pain if we also had to eliminate pleasure. I recently watched a movie about this very thing. The society took a drug that made them emotionally neutral.
 
#121
#121
Roustabout said:
I'm not saying that they aren't in some sense indicators. But it doesn't answer why? Ever heard of a sadist? Not exactly objective. Or, what about our armed forces. Should they eliminate pain for pleasure, or is there an actual benefit of pain given the proper context? Either way, it assumes that our senses are grounds for objective truth. Well, that is by nature, subjective, even with a consensus. Your statement has no ontological grounding.

Childbirth is one of the most painful experiences known. It isn't the pain or childbirth or the pleasure of a new born that make it valuable. I'd argue that pain, in the proper context, is both beneficial and necessary. Sure, we'd agree that we shouldn't seek to inflict undue pain on others, but it doesn't answer, 'why?'
One could just as easily argue that it would be worth it to eliminate pain if we also had to eliminate pleasure. I recently watched a movie about this very thing. The society took a drug that made them emotionally neutral.
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Would that film be equilibrium? Because that was a dystopian world devoid of pleasure and pain. Key word, dystopian.

Sadism is easily explained. While it involves PHYSICAL pain, it leads to pleasure for the recipient. Childbirth, is physically painful, but often the most beautiful moment in both lives involved.

Think beyond the physical realm. I'm speaking of the emotional, esoteric, and personal concept of pleasure and pain.
 
#122
#122
DinkinFlicka said:
I agree. Terms such as: better, good, worse, bad are subjective. Which is why I go back to the two most basic feelings a mammal can experience: pleasure and pain.
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Really, is that how you use those terms?
If I say that Mother Teresa is a better example of morals than Adolph Hitler, then you are saying there is no objective measure of how I'm using the term? Ok.
 
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#123
#123
DinkinFlicka said:
Would that film be equilibrium? Because that was a dystopian world devoid of pleasure and pain. Key word, dystopian.

Sadism is easily explained. While it involves PHYSICAL pain, it leads to pleasure for the recipient. Childbirth, is physically painful, but often the most beautiful moment in both lives involved.

Think beyond the physical realm. I'm speaking of the emotional, esoteric, and personal concept of pleasure and pain.
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Beautiful? You are just throwing out subjective terms.
I am thinking beyond the physical realm. We both agree that helping others is better than harming others. No argument. But, you haven't grounded this view. All you've done is provide a caveat, pain is Ok if.......
 
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#125
#125
Roustabout said:
There is nothing in the NT that preaches or teaches we (Christians) are to hate anyone because they don't agree with us. In fact, the NT explicitly teaches us to love even our enemy and to pray for them. Are you saying you grew up being taught that you are to do the opposite of what the NT teaches?

The problem with what you are saying (in bold) is that it is based on your feelings and not in objective truth. Pagans might say they connect to a higher power through human sacrifice, or another group might say they connect by sexual experiences. Who is to say what is true? How do you ground "positive?"
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You're 100% right that people aren't supposed to use the Bible in that way. But in my experiences, they do. They use it as a means of fighting against gay marriage and other social injustices over time.
 
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