Ukraine Protests

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#8,176
#8,176
Grand Vol said:
Minus the AT capability, mobility capability, anti-APC capability and doesn't have an engine that was powerful enough when designed. And complete lack of environmental systems on the one with the anti-tank gun installed.

It's a do all vehicle in various configurations that doesn't really do any one well. Different designs and whatnot, but for modern mechanized warfare, it's hard to beat the Brad. For urban combat, the Stryker does okay save the fact it wasn't designed for anti-mine/IED operations in mind.

Like a great many things that Shinseki had in store for the Army, it ended up not being quite as great as he envisioned.
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thats my problem with the Bradley. its trying to be so many different roles it can't really excel at any one; while you can with the Stryker its variants based on need. Its tracked so it can get places. Its a IFV, except that it doesn't have the armor (for the IEDS as well) or the main gun to fully support. The TOW system is nice until the crew has to disembark to reload. As an APC it can transport what, 6 people? i figure that cuts down on a squads effectiveness if they are split up, while disembarking may not be a real issue; hot evacs can be a pain as you are having to split guys up to find room, leaving Johnny scrambling from rear door to rear door looking for an empty seat. a bit dramatized but you get the picture. and the Bradley looks like a tank, which tends to draw heavier firepower against it than it can handle. And the Bradley doesn't have the squad support, C^4, that the Stryker has, not a failure it just wasn't designed for it. and while i have heard the Stryker is pretty easy to get taken out of action it has a better crew/troop survival ratios when getting hit than most of our APCs.

one of the other big things with the Stryker was that originally, not it the updated versions apparently, transport was a lot easier than the Bradley. and while the to build cost are about the same, maintenance is much cheaper, and quicker, with OTS parts.

so while an individual Stryker can not do as many things as the Bradley, there is a Stryker out there which can do each job better than a Bradley could. You want a fighting vehicle there is the MGS vs a Bradley, you want an APC you get the basic vs a Bradley, you like the TOW capabilities of the Bradley there is the ATGM. in a squad of Strykers you are going to have the mix of capabilities needed to deal with almost any threat, while in the Bradleys you better hope you don't come across something you aren't prepared for.
 
#8,177
#8,177
Burhead said:
@mletterle 6m6 minutes ago

ALOT of reports out of the Russian-separatist camp that they have taken Debaltseve. Not so much from the Ukrainian side..
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Ukraine is saying a relief convoy was hit and those are the POW's. They are saying the POW's the Russians are showing are not the actual town itself. I do find it odd that POW's are wounded and taken when there is a cease fire. I do find it odd that Russians are creeping into Debaltseve even after a ceasefire as well. Apparently, "ceasefire" means nothing when translated into Russian. I feel sorry for the POW's though. They'll be abused counter to the GC and most likely shot like the ones near Krasnii Partisan. But the Russians are the good guys right?
 
#8,178
#8,178
CSpindizzy said:
Ukraine is saying a relief convoy was hit and those are the POW's. They are saying the POW's the Russians are showing are not the actual town itself. I do find it odd that POW's are wounded and taken when there is a cease fire. I do find it odd that Russians are creeping into Debaltseve even after a ceasefire as well. Apparently, "ceasefire" means nothing when translated into Russian. I feel sorry for the POW's though. They'll be abused counter to the GC and most likely shot like the ones near Krasnii Partisan. But the Russians are the good guys right?
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and so much for all POWs being turned over as well. i guess that doesn't apply because they were taken prisoner after the ceasefire, which as you pointed out doesn't make sense.
 
#8,179
#8,179
LouderVol said:
thats my problem with the Bradley. its trying to be so many different roles it can't really excel at any one; while you can with the Stryker its variants based on need. Its tracked so it can get places. Its a IFV, except that it doesn't have the armor (for the IEDS as well) or the main gun to fully support. The TOW system is nice until the crew has to disembark to reload. As an APC it can transport what, 6 people? i figure that cuts down on a squads effectiveness if they are split up, while disembarking may not be a real issue; hot evacs can be a pain as you are having to split guys up to find room, leaving Johnny scrambling from rear door to rear door looking for an empty seat. a bit dramatized but you get the picture. and the Bradley looks like a tank, which tends to draw heavier firepower against it than it can handle. And the Bradley doesn't have the squad support, C^4, that the Stryker has, not a failure it just wasn't designed for it. and while i have heard the Stryker is pretty easy to get taken out of action it has a better crew/troop survival ratios when getting hit than most of our APCs.

one of the other big things with the Stryker was that originally, not it the updated versions apparently, transport was a lot easier than the Bradley. and while the to build cost are about the same, maintenance is much cheaper, and quicker, with OTS parts.

so while an individual Stryker can not do as many things as the Bradley, there is a Stryker out there which can do each job better than a Bradley could. You want a fighting vehicle there is the MGS vs a Bradley, you want an APC you get the basic vs a Bradley, you like the TOW capabilities of the Bradley there is the ATGM. in a squad of Strykers you are going to have the mix of capabilities needed to deal with almost any threat, while in the Bradleys you better hope you don't come across something you aren't prepared for.
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It was designed to go up against the rompin stompin Red Army back in the day and something it did very well. When used against threats like the BMP/BMD/BTR series, it works exceptionally well. And the biggest point was it could keep up with the Abrams unlike the M113 it replaced (at least in the IFV/APC role).

I have no problems with the Stryker, however, the costs of upgrading and updating everything so far has not been exactly going to plan. And a lot of flaws were identified (specifically the air transport that failed to meet the GAO requirements) that have cost serious money to replace. And the complete and utter failure of the system in Afghanistan meant another costly upgrade.

And really the job it was envisioned for has been overtaken by other designs such as the MRAP and like vehicles. And the utility purposes of the Stryker system (mortar carrier, ATG system, APC, etc) is overtaken by the flaws in it's lack of offroad capability. So really, it's not any better than the Bradley it supplemented or the M113 it replaced.
 
#8,181
#8,181
Velo Vol said:
You do?
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Heavy on my sarcasm in that statement. Considering Moscow and their pets have all been before cameras decrying the Ukrainian violations it just makes for good drama for the Russians to see prisoners and land taken by their side when they claim the other side is the one violating the truce. Like Louder said, when the agreement was the release of prisoners why bother taking them? To take them you have to cross the imaginary line to get them. And the fact there are wounded and killed means there was fighting as well.

Putin and his minions are getting away with murder and the West is still sitting back in a circle singing "give peace a chance". And now Putin is in Budapest honoring the coup the USSR pulled off in '56. Talk about pretty lousy.
 
#8,183
#8,183
Grand Vol said:
It was designed to go up against the rompin stompin Red Army back in the day and something it did very well. When used against threats like the BMP/BMD/BTR series, it works exceptionally well. And the biggest point was it could keep up with the Abrams unlike the M113 it replaced (at least in the IFV/APC role).

I have no problems with the Stryker, however, the costs of upgrading and updating everything so far has not been exactly going to plan. And a lot of flaws were identified (specifically the air transport that failed to meet the GAO requirements) that have cost serious money to replace. And the complete and utter failure of the system in Afghanistan meant another costly upgrade.

And really the job it was envisioned for has been overtaken by other designs such as the MRAP and like vehicles. And the utility purposes of the Stryker system (mortar carrier, ATG system, APC, etc) is overtaken by the flaws in it's lack of offroad capability. So really, it's not any better than the Bradley it supplemented or the M113 it replaced.
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the bradley has gone through just as much if not more updating and re-outfitting as the Stryker, IIRC, it didn't have the 30mm on its original design just the same M2 the Stryker has.

i wont argue the Stryker hasn't been outclassed in certain areas but in those cases hasn't whatever has surpassed the Stryker also surpassed the Bradley as well?
 
#8,184
#8,184
Briefing by Ukraine MoD momentarily (unexpected) and Russia asking for UN Security Council meeting at 3pm today. Is this falling apart?
 
#8,186
#8,186
LouderVol said:
the bradley has gone through just as much if not more updating and re-outfitting as the Stryker, IIRC, it didn't have the 30mm on its original design just the same M2 the Stryker has.

i wont argue the Stryker hasn't been outclassed in certain areas but in those cases hasn't whatever has surpassed the Stryker also surpassed the Bradley as well?
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The thing that always struck me as odd about the bradley as a scout vehicle is that it has a higher profile, bigger heat signature, and is louder than the abrams. It might be serviceable in mech infantry, but for scouts in armor units there has to be a better alternative.
 
#8,187
#8,187
red butler said:
The thing that always struck me as odd about the bradley as a scout vehicle is that it has a higher profile, bigger heat signature, and is louder than the abrams. It might be serviceable in mech infantry, but for scouts in armor units there has to be a better alternative.
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i think the abrams would make a great scouting vehicle. :) lets people know you are serious.
 
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#8,188
#8,188
LouderVol said:
oh crap sounds like something went down.
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Supposedly Poroshenko is on the phone with Merkel and Hollande. Considering the convoys within Russia that have massed along the eastern border and in Crimea over the weekend, not many gestures of peace from Russia official and Russians within Ukraine. Even Lord Haw Haw Graham Phillips is all over the place with his camcorder and a smile. And still the Russian media labels the US a warmonger for sitting back and watching this debacle happen.
 
#8,191
#8,191
volprof said:
Why Putin -- and Some of His Female Fans -- Go Shirtless*|*Valerie Sperling

Obama Girl should hide her head in shame.
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I guess FEMEN is the counter to this...and apparently it is common for authoritarians to have a desire to exude sex appeal and want young ladies to have their leader's children. I believe it was Zhironovsky and some female member of the Duma who actually called on women to request a certain "donation" from Putin to have more children. With a dying off and fleeing population (not to mention the ones in Ukraine dying), Putin needs his country to breed more.
 
#8,193
#8,193
CSpindizzy said:
I guess FEMEN is the counter to this...and apparently it is common for authoritarians to have a desire to exude sex appeal and want young ladies to have their leader's children. I believe it was Zhironovsky and some female member of the Duma who actually called on women to request a certain "donation" from Putin to have more children. With a dying off and fleeing population (not to mention the ones in Ukraine dying), Putin needs his country to breed more.
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Fascism is all about projecting the power and virility of the male body - a symbol of the state. Attractive sycophantic females obviously play into this narrative.
 
#8,194
#8,194
CSpindizzy said:
Supposedly Poroshenko is on the phone with Merkel and Hollande. Considering the convoys within Russia that have massed along the eastern border and in Crimea over the weekend, not many gestures of peace from Russia official and Russians within Ukraine. Even Lord Haw Haw Graham Phillips is all over the place with his camcorder and a smile. And still the Russian media labels the US a warmonger for sitting back and watching this debacle happen.
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Got photos of these convoys?
 
#8,196
#8,196
Rasputin_Vol said:
Got photos of these convoys?
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Check the Russian media you trust. They've linked it over the weekend. I know you just absolutely hate Twitter but since the media you like actually has pictures there easily found that would be a good place to start. A few videos out there as well. All show some heavy equipment and supplies all being massed to the border. Strange that Russia would be massing on the Crimean border unless the desired link up is the goal.

Not sure why I bother though. I'm sure all of this will be labeled as CIA propaganda.

And did you see where Moscow's favorite media troll Graham Phillips actually posted videos and pictures of T-72B3's over the weekend? Idiot gave concrete proof top of the line Russian military hardware no other nation has is now in Ukraine. All the other proof was claimed as faked. But when your pet troll gives the proof himself, it becomes difficult to deny. He kept claiming it was a T-72M but there are clear and distinctive differences. And then his response is why is it OK for the US to arm Ukraine and not Russia with its favored? Apparently the US is arming Ukraine.
 
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#8,197
#8,197
‏@isaacdwebb 11m11 minutes ago

Martial law imminent? @AFP: #BREAKING Kiev demands 'tough' response from West against Russia over broken truce
 
#8,199
#8,199
@mletterle 17m17 minutes ago

Poroshenko planning response to alleged breaches of truce by militia forces - aide / Interfax
0 replies 0 retweets 0 favorites


Putin also says that he has information that the US is already supplying arms to Ukraine and he went on to say that after Debaltseve he has no further territorial ambitions believe it when I see it.
 
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