Ukraine Protests

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#7,351
#7,351
CSpindizzy said:
When you do not allow open access to neutral monitors and you have masked, heavily armed guards at polling stations as well as pictures of pre-voted ballots making the rounds, it puts a question on the credibility.

Add to the fact that these who supposedly voted pro-Russian are moving in droves deeper into Ukraine? I guess they had a change of heart? Buses evacuating Debaltseve were given two destinations: Donetsk (DNR controlled) or into Ukraine. The Ukraine bound buses were packed to capacity. The ones Donetsk bound? They could not even fill one bus. Seems odd for these people to want to go to their "oppressors".

Back on Yatsenyuk....if memory serves me correctly Yanukovich himself wanted to install Yatsenyuk before he fled. So does that mean the Putin lapdog was in on the US installed government plan as well?
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What purpose were we serving then if not setting up "our" guy? Obama has already admitted we had a plan to transition power.

Why the investment if it didn't matter who took control? Can someone explain this?!
 
#7,352
#7,352
Rasputin_Vol said:
As I said last week, if you are really upset about the outcome in Crimea, then you should be biting nails at the election results in Afghanistan last summer. Maybe the Crimeans should take lessons from John Kerry on how to really rig an election. The State Department was 2-0 last year (Ukraine and Afghanistan).
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And now you see why you have zero credibility in talking of such matters.
 
#7,353
#7,353
Pacer92 said:
What purpose were we serving then if not setting up "our" guy? Obama has already admitted we had a plan to transition power.

Why the investment if it didn't matter who took control? Can someone explain this?!
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a plan based on facts mentioned by Dizzy makes it seem like a plan and not a conspiracy. if you think our government doesn't have a plan for every government in the world and a short list of who could take over at the next change of hands you have another thing coming. and i would believe that every major country also has similar plans and contingencies.
 
#7,354
#7,354
Pacer92 said:
What purpose were we serving then if not setting up "our" guy? Obama has already admitted we had a plan to transition power.

Why the investment if it didn't matter who took control? Can someone explain this?!
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The guy that was supposedly "our guy" was Yanukovich's as well. How do you explain that? WE had no plan. We had an interest in making sure there was a stable transition as well as any other nation with ties there. The minority government filled a temp spot until elections could happen. Plain and simple. Since Yanukovich's party all but dissolved (many joining Fatherland by the way) the next largest party was Yatsenyuk's. Timoshenko tried to get the party back (was her's before her imprisonment). She was bat crazy and failed in that attempt. Had anyone besides Yatsenyuk took the spot it would have been blatantly obvious there was a higher power involved.

By investment I assume you are one of these people using the $5 billion example? Please go listen to Nuland's speech. Since 1991 we have invested that sum approximately to build democracy in Ukraine. You ought to see the totals for other nations. We poured money in to train people in elections, party building, monitoring, poll stations, etc. We've had people in Ukraine for years helping to teach them electoral processes. We have not bought some conspiracy government at one lump payment. It was a total since 1991 and it is a total many nations around the world get. To somehow use this statement as some "gotcha" or evidence of nefarious acts is completely ignorant of the facts.
 
#7,355
#7,355
CSpindizzy said:
See my above post. Yanukovich wanted him in there. Was Viktor in on the act as well? Seems weird that Putin's pet was all about installing Yatsenyuk as PM as well.
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He "wanted" him in there? Really?

Ukraine: President Viktor Yanukovich offers top government posts to opposition leaders including Arseniy Yatsenyuk and Vitali Klitschko - Europe - World - The Independent

So you're going to convince me that under these circumstances, he "wanted" Yatsenyuk in there or "was pressured" to offer Yatsenyuk given the escalating violence and chaos? You guys don't even try to be objective...

They came armed with metre-long sticks, gas masks and hard hats. But 33-year-old businessman Vasel Gabel and his friends insisted they were not in Kiev’s Independence Square in search of confrontation. It was, they said, a “matter of dignity”.

Like so many of the thousands who turned out on the streets of the Ukrainian capital again yesterday, the eight-strong group of men said their weapons were purely for protection against a police crackdown they fear could come at any time.

In a day of growing tension between demonstrators and police, a group of protesters briefly seized the energy ministry’s headquarters as President Viktor Yanukovych held increasingly desperate talks with opposition leaders. Last night, President Yanukovych offered the job of prime minister to one of the opposition leaders, Arseniy Yatsenyuk. The former world champion boxer Vitali Klitschko was offered the post of deputy prime minister. There was no immediate comment from Mr Yatsenyuk. Earlier, Vitaliy Zakharchenko, the Interior Minister in charge of police who is widely despised by protesters, had said efforts to peacefully resolve the unrest were “futile”.
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Yeah, he was feeling charitable and just decided to serve it up voluntarily... :unsure:
 
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#7,356
#7,356
Under those circumstances? If we're talking objective read the whole article. When people are beaten, shot at, killed, kidnapped, imprisoned, tortured, etc. for mere peaceful assembly I'd say they have a right to be upset and protest. Considering what Berkut was doing these people were restrained if anything. Sticks and gas masks versus well armed and highly trained military units. Please. People like you make Yanukovich out to be the victim of a few stick wielding people when he had the firepower pointing right at them and after everything he already did.

Increasingly desperate talks. Nominating Yatsenyuk was his last chance to look good. He had pressure from Moscow and the West. The man served his purpose. He wrecked his country for Putin and stole billions in the process. Making him out to be some hero or victim only plays into the whole dupe he perpetrated on the world. The man raped his country and now sits at the feet of his master having succeeded at what Putin hoped to accomplish. The most corrupt and vile leader since Soviet times ran off after people with sticks and masks got mad.

You still haven't explained how this guy was our installed leader. Curious as to your evidence. Seems odd he would try to install "our guy".
 
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#7,358
#7,358
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#7,366
#7,366
Burhead said:
So the rebels once again have targeted civilians. They killed seven in Kramatorsk today.
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The sad part is that they are shelling the crap out of the towns of the people they claim to liberate. Seems stupid to completely destroy the towns within the borders of your so called republics. If these are your people why completely obliterate the towns and kill the civilians that 'voted for you'?

We see the real strategy here by the Russian soldiers. This is Putin's strategy with all the ethnic Russians outside of Russia. He claims to love them but uses them as pawns in his game and will not hesitate to kill them if need be. Since 2000 (when Putin arrived politically) tens of thousands of ethnic Russians have tried to return to Russia and restore Russian citizenship. He has refused all but those who have a high tech worth. The rest he refuses to have anything to do with until he can use them to invade the areas and seize the land.
 
#7,368
#7,368
CSpindizzy said:
The sad part is that they are shelling the crap out of the towns of the people they claim to liberate. Seems stupid to completely destroy the towns within the borders of your so called republics. If these are your people why completely obliterate the towns and kill the civilians that 'voted for you'?

We see the real strategy here by the Russian soldiers. This is Putin's strategy with all the ethnic Russians outside of Russia. He claims to love them but uses them as pawns in his game and will not hesitate to kill them if need be. Since 2000 (when Putin arrived politically) tens of thousands of ethnic Russians have tried to return to Russia and restore Russian citizenship. He has refused all but those who have a high tech worth. The rest he refuses to have anything to do with until he can use them to invade the areas and seize the land.
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Guess you've seen the grim news coming out of Debaltseve? Yesterday the Russians finally cut off the last lines of supply and encircled the 8,000 Ukrainian defenders. If they surrender or are killed that could mean the end of a free Ukraine. They can't suffer another drastic defeat like this. The Russian commanders are calling for them to surrender because they compare it to Stalingrad.
 
#7,369
#7,369
Even Putin News Network has the report. I do find it humorous how this report says they don't know who did it when clearly the direction and trajectory indicates Russian controlled direction.

http://rt.com/news/230975-kramatorsk-ukraine-shelling-poroshenko/

As for the Normandy discussions why bother? Russia and their DNR/LNR minions signed off on Minsk but then ignored what they signed off on. Will we just have another agreement they disregard?
 
#7,370
#7,370
Burhead said:
Guess you've seen the grim news coming out of Debaltseve? Yesterday the Russians finally cut off the last lines of supply and encircled the 8,000 Ukrainian defenders. If they surrender or are killed that could mean the end of a free Ukraine. They can't suffer another drastic defeat like this. The Russian commanders are calling for them to surrender because they compare it to Stalingrad.
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Yep. Know a few people that did manage to get out the other day. I'm sure the Russians will offer a means of retreat only to cut them down like they did at Ilovaisk. Or they will take prisoners and dance them around and humiliate them, violating Geneva Convention.

If this group is lost the Ukrainian military will not be able to sustain itself. They are rapidly running out of experienced forces. Russia's pouring in hundreds of new but experienced fighters. Ukraine is scraping together late teens, women, old people, taxi drivers, etc. They are running out of viable equipment. The other side has shiny new toys replenishing what they lose. Hard to fight against an enemy who magically gets reinforcements that do not exist.
 
#7,372
#7,372
Pacer92 said:
I'm almost certain that many of these "reports" will poke their head up over the next few days.

"Officials" and "local authorities" will report the continuous shelling of civilians by the separatists. I wouldn't expect anything less to push the agenda..
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Are you discounting RT as well? Or the OSCE? I would hardly call these two sources as Western spin or bias against the invaders.
 
#7,374
#7,374
Pacer92 said:
I'm almost certain that many of these "reports" will poke their head up over the next few days.

"Officials" and "local authorities" will report the continuous shelling of civilians by the separatists. I wouldn't expect anything less to push the agenda..
Click to expand...

Is it "pushing an agenda" if it's true that the separatists are shelling civilians?
 
#7,375
#7,375
CSpindizzy said:
Yep. Know a few people that did manage to get out the other day. I'm sure the Russians will offer a means of retreat only to cut them down like they did at Ilovaisk. Or they will take prisoners and dance them around and humiliate them, violating Geneva Convention.

If this group is lost the Ukrainian military will not be able to sustain itself. They are rapidly running out of experienced forces. Russia's pouring in hundreds of new but experienced fighters. Ukraine is scraping together late teens, women, old people, taxi drivers, etc. They are running out of viable equipment. The other side has shiny new toys replenishing what they lose. Hard to fight against an enemy who magically gets reinforcements that do not exist.
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Yeah. I often wonder how the Ukrainian military would have fared had they not put it through years of chronic underfunding, letting the Russian embed with them, and equipping it with a large number of newer Ukrainian technology from Ukroboronprom.
 
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