Ukraine Protests

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#7,052
#7,052
Burhead said:
Is This the End of NATO? | The XX Committee
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I've said it before but will say it again. Either bomb and invade the hell out of the place (eastern Ukraine) or go ahead and give it to Russia. It's clear the Russians care more about it anyhow, so I just say go ahead and let them have it, especially since the first option I mentioned will never be realized. (The West makes the lost of civilian lives primary; the Russians couldn't care less, despite RT nonsense - just a propaganda tool on their part.)
 
#7,055
#7,055
volprof said:
I've said it before but will say it again. Either bomb and invade the hell out of the place (eastern Ukraine) or go ahead and give it to Russia. It's clear the Russians care more about it anyhow, so I just say go ahead and let them have it, especially since the first option I mentioned will never be realized. (The West makes the lost of civilian lives primary; the Russians couldn't care less, despite RT nonsense - just a propaganda tool on their part.)
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NATO doesn't need to intervene with actual troops. Give the Ukrainians the tools and they will fight. The biggest needs they have are secure comms, jamming tech to disrupt Russian comms, counter-battery radar, and modern anti-tank and anti-armor missiles. The anti-tank/armor systems they are using are sometimes 20-30 years old in some cases and actually pass expiration on others. They don't need heavy weaponry, they got plenty of that and the means to repair and produce more thankfully.
 
#7,056
#7,056
volprof said:
How do we reconcile Donbass self-determination with the lack of Chechen self-determination?

Go!
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@McFaul 2h2 hours ago

If you supported Chechen separatists in 1990s then I respect your principled support for Russian "separatists" today. If you did not, then..
 
#7,057
#7,057
Velo Vol said:
Why are those the only two options? Why should Ukrainian sovereignty take a back seat to what Russia wants?
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In an ideal world, you'd be right, but I don't expect a) Western (namely American) troops to die for land they've never even heard of as well as a political situation that, while pressing, does not necessarily affect us just yet; and, b) if Ukraine cannot defend or cohere its own territory, then perhaps it doesn't need all of it. The latter is harsh, and I'm largely sympathetic to Ukraine in this crisis, but I also don't think that thus far what I've seen warrants the death of even one Western life.
 
#7,058
#7,058
Burhead said:
NATO doesn't need to intervene with actual troops. Give the Ukrainians the tools and they will fight. The biggest needs they have are secure comms, jamming tech to disrupt Russian comms, counter-battery radar, and modern anti-tank and anti-armor missiles. The anti-tank/armor systems they are using are sometimes 20-30 years old in some cases and actually pass expiration on others. They don't need heavy weaponry, they got plenty of that and the means to repair and produce more thankfully.
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How do you think the Russians will respond to lethal armament in Ukraine? Of course, they've been doing the same the entire time, but do you not think they'd then feel obligated to up the ante even more, even in ways we might not be able to anticipate at the moment?
 
#7,060
#7,060
volprof said:
How do you think the Russians will respond to lethal armament in Ukraine? Of course, they've been doing the same the entire time, but do you not think they'd then feel obligated to up the ante even more, even in ways we might not be able to anticipate at the moment?
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Why should we care what they think? They are going to continue destroying Ukraine with or without the introduction of Western weapon systems.

@leonidragozin 14m14 minutes ago

Hollande details peace plan that envisages Ukrainian army moving 50-70 km from the frontline. So what about Mariupol? BBC News - Ukraine crisis: 'Last chance' for peace says Hollande …

‏@TomLINESorguk 11m11 minutes ago

@Kasparov63 @noclador To West, #Russia matters, #Ukraine doesn't. And to Chamberlain in 1938, Germany mattered, Austria & Czechoslov didn't.
 
#7,061
#7,061
You guys willing to be drafted or go send your sons over there to fight a war for Ukrainian sovereignty? Because I'm not.
 
#7,062
#7,062
Burhead said:
NATO doesn't need to intervene with actual troops. Give the Ukrainians the tools and they will fight. The biggest needs they have are secure comms, jamming tech to disrupt Russian comms, counter-battery radar, and modern anti-tank and anti-armor missiles. The anti-tank/armor systems they are using are sometimes 20-30 years old in some cases and actually pass expiration on others. They don't need heavy weaponry, they got plenty of that and the means to repair and produce more thankfully.
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That is the problem. Even the Ukrainians don't have the will to carry on much longer.
 
#7,063
#7,063
Velo Vol said:
It would help if they have modern weapons to do so.

We're not talking about sending in U.S. troops.

---

Perfect.

Is Russia Preparing To Move To The Gold Standard? | EMerging Equity
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You heard it from me first. This is the direction the entire BRICS countries will eventually move towards. That is also why we are having to fight all of these wars all over the place. We would rather defend the USD instead of allow the rest of the world an alternative that is based on sound money.
 
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#7,065
#7,065
Meanwhile, Poroshenko's attempt at "evidence" fails.

Poroshenko's Move to Prove Russian Presence in Ukraine Met With Memes / Sputnik International

B9QG5WmIcAAKNXF.png:large

Those are passports and military IDs of Russian soldiers who 'lost their way' into Ukraine.
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The replies...
Poroshenko wants us to believe, that Russian special-ops carry passports with them while on covert mission... okay.
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"Russian soldiers cannot use their passports while on active service – they must hand them in."
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And also passports found in a warzone are in mint condition and look brand new
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#7,067
#7,067
#7,068
#7,068
Velo Vol said:
I'm too old to get drafted; I don't have any sons. I'm good.
That's a hell of a response. I, for one, am still young enough to be called up (I'm pretty positive -30 years old) in the event of a major crisis, and I'm also at the point I'm old enough to have a child who may one day have to do the same, although I don't have one at the moment.
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#7,070
#7,070
Wait... what treaty?

Cruz pushes for US to arm Ukraine, as European leaders push for cease-fire | Fox News

Sen. Ted Cruz said Sunday that the U.S. should honor a treaty obligation to supply weapons to Ukraine to thwart Russian-back separatists -- a plan with little support among European leaders trying to broker a cease-fire deal as early as Wednesday.
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“We have a treaty obligation to stand with them,” Cruz said. “And right now, unfortunately, the Obama administration is not honoring that obligation. We need to come together and provide defensive arms so that [Ukraine] can stand up against this Russian aggression.”
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So now, Ted Cruz is in lock step with the warmongers.
 
#7,071
#7,071
#7,073
#7,073
Grand Vol said:
I keep saying you should study more...

Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Perhaps you wouldn't look like such a clown at that point.
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The memorandum included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine as well as those of Belarus and Kazakhstan.
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Well hell... that treaty was broken by the US when they sent in the State Department goons last winter.
 
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#7,074
#7,074
According to the memorandum, Russia, the U.S., and the UK confirmed, in recognition of Ukraine becoming party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and in effect abandoning its nuclear arsenal to Russia, that they would:

1. Respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty within its existing borders.
2. Refrain from the threat or use of force against Ukraine.
3. Refrain from using economic pressure on Ukraine in order to influence its politics.
4. Seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, "if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".
5. Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Ukraine.
6. Consult with one another if questions arise regarding these commitments.
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The US was in clear violation of this agreement.

And btw, is this simply an "agreement" or is it a "treaty"?
 
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