Ferguson Riots

#4,126
#4,126
lawgator1 said:
So the nation's defense apparatus, banking and finance, the entire road structure, power plants, all forms of transportation, education, food supplies, and every type of communication other than person to person, is socialist.
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It can be considered that, I guess, but a lot of those things are different in a very meaningful way:

Health care is not a public good. It is excludable and rival.

National defense is a public good. It is non-excludable and non-rival in nature.

The whole justification for government-provided national security is the assumption that no one else will provide it because there isn't a way to make money.

Health care is obviously provided without government intervening and controlling production.
 
#4,128
#4,128
Vol8188 said:
No it's not. For that to happen the doctor would have to be a government employee.
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Say government set the prices of cars, funds manufacturing, sets quotas, etc., but the guy who makes the car is not a government employee, then it wouldn't be socialism?
 
#4,129
#4,129
n_huffhines said:
Say government set the prices of cars, funds manufacturing, sets quotas, etc., but the guy who makes the car is not a government employee, then it wouldn't be socialism?
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How does Medicare=production of health care. I'm not seeing it.
 
#4,130
#4,130
Vol8188 said:
No it's not. For that to happen the doctor would have to be a government employee.
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Elect the Hildabeast, and that will happen.... essentially. The progressive wet dream of a single payer system will be realized. Especially since it will be fairly easy to villify the insurance companies because this law will by necessity and design drive up the costs of insurance. We are already seeing that. Then... good old Uncle Sugar will solve all your problems. Piece of cake.
 
#4,132
#4,132
SpaceCoastVol said:
Elect the Hildabeast, and that will happen.... essentially. The progressive wet dream of a single payer system will be realized. Especially since it will be fairly easy to villify the insurance companies because this law will by necessity and design drive up the costs of insurance. We are already seeing that. Then... good old Uncle Sugar will solve all your problems. Piece of cake.
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Honest question:

Do you consider fire and police departments to be socialist?
 
#4,135
#4,135
Vol8188 said:
Honest question:

Do you consider fire and police departments to be socialist?
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Interesting question, and I would have to answer no, not in the same sense, but it is a gray question. Social services do not = socialism. I am getting something for the taxes I pay. I am getting police and fire protection. In the ACA, money is being taken and redistributed to other citizens against my will, and I am being forced by the IRS to do it. So THAT is socialism. Of course I could press to test that issue by not having insurance and not paying any fines, because I am not stupid enough to give the government an interest free loan all year. I have written a check on April 15 for the last 30 years.
 
#4,136
#4,136
Vol8188 said:
I'm not sure what you're even trying to say.
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I can help with that if you tell me which part of this is not understandable?

n_huffhines said:
Say government set the prices of cars, funds manufacturing, sets quotas, etc., but the guy who makes the car is not a government employee, then it wouldn't be socialism?
Click to expand...
 
#4,137
#4,137
SpaceCoastVol said:
Interesting question, and I would have to answer no, because I am getting something for the taxes I pay. I am getting police and fire protection. In the ACA, money is being taken and redistributed to other citizens against my will, and I am being forced by the IRS to do it. So THAT is socialism. Of course I could press to test that issue by not having insurance and not paying any fines, because I am not stupid enough to give the government an interest free loan all year. I have written a check on April 15 for the last 30 years.
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So if you were to simply pay taxes and the government were to provide healthcare for all citizens, that's socialist?

But for you to pay taxes and the government to provide police and fire fighters is not socialist?

I'm honestly not following.
 
#4,139
#4,139
I think this all comes back to another question also. All you bleeding heart socialists can answer this, although since the reality is moot you will no doubtedly answer no: If you were able to opt out of Social Security and the ACA, would you? I would get out right now, and the gubbamint could keep all the money I have "contributed" and I wouldn't ask for a single dime in return. Just don't take any more out of my pocket. If you truly answer no to that, you are a blithering idiot that cannot do basic math.
 
#4,140
#4,140
SpaceCoastVol said:
Interesting question, and I would have to answer no, not in the same sense, but it is a gray question. Social services do not = socialism. I am getting something for the taxes I pay. I am getting police and fire protection. In the ACA, money is being taken and redistributed to other citizens against my will, and I am being forced by the IRS to do it. So THAT is socialism. Of course I could press to test that issue by not having insurance and not paying any fines, because I am not stupid enough to give the government an interest free loan all year. I have written a check on April 15 for the last 30 years.
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Crappy argument. There are tons of things my taxes go to I never use. I don't use every road or eat every inspected food. That doesn't make them socialist.
 
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#4,141
#4,141
SpaceCoastVol said:
I think this all comes back to another question also. All you bleeding heart socialists can answer this, although since the reality is moot you will no doubtedly answer no: If you were able to opt out of Social Security and the ACA, would you? I would get out right now, and the gubbamint could keep all the money I have "contributed" and I wouldn't ask for a single dime in return. Just don't take any more out of my pocket. If you truly answer no to that, you are a blithering idiot that cannot do basic math.
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Does your math work for retirees?

How about for folks that have been paying in to SS for 40 years and within a short time of retirement? Should they opt out of SS and forfeit all the money they have contributed?
 
#4,145
#4,145
lawgator1 said:
Crappy argument. There are tons of things my taxes go to I never use. I don't use every road or eat every inspected food. That doesn't make them socialist.
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I didn't say those things are socialist. I said they are social services. Those are needed by everyone, although I prefer toll roads as opposed to gasoline taxes that inevitably get stolen for something besides their intended use. Government funded health care is not a necessity. It can be bought on the open market just fine without government meddling. Some parts needed to be fixed, no doubt, but an entire overhaul was ridiculous. So why all of a sudden is this a necessity? When will it stop with the socialists? What will be the next big thing that we all need to chip in for?

And it is YOUR industry, counselor, that has made health insurance the mess it is, so if I were you I would lay low on the issue.
 
#4,146
#4,146
Danl said:
Does your math work for retirees?

How about for folks that have been paying in to SS for 40 years and within a short time of retirement? Should they opt out of SS and forfeit all the money they have contributed?
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It is not my "math". I am just saying that for the 11 years I have before retirement, I would willingly forfeit what I have "contributed". Besides, I will betcha that I won't see any of it anyway, because even Rand Paul is talking about means testing, so thank you very little. If it is not means tested, they will back the reception for benefits to age 75 or something equally ridiculous so that they never have to return any of the pilfered monies. That math is inevitable.
 
#4,147
#4,147
SpaceCoastVol said:
It is not my "math". I am just saying that for the 11 years I have before retirement, I would willingly forfeit what I have "contributed". Besides, I will betcha that I won't see any of it anyway, because even Rand Paul is talking about means testing, so thank you very little. If it is not means tested, they will back the reception for benefits to age 75 or something equally ridiculous so that they never have to return any of the pilfered monies. That math is inevitable.
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The "math" doesn't work the same way for everyone. I would be a "blithering idiot" to opt out. So would millions of other people. Being liberal or conservative makes no difference. It's basic math.

As far as means testing, retirees will continue to be a large voting bloc for decades to come. And they are more likely to vote. Retirees will not vote for means testing. That would be a hard uphill battle.
 
#4,148
#4,148
Vol8188 said:
So if you were to simply pay taxes and the government were to provide healthcare for all citizens, that's socialist?

But for you to pay taxes and the government to provide police and fire fighters is not socialist?

I'm honestly not following.
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Spacy? Where'd you go?
 
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