The SEC Limit

#1

TNHopeful505

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2009
Messages
11,322
Likes
20,032
#1
Now that Mike Slive is retiring....

Does anyone think that the new Commissioner might repeal the 25 signee limit for the SEC?

It's a serious limitation for the SEC. And yes, it sucks for players.

But...look at what's happening. We lost the championship last year, and we won't win it this year. The West is tanking to other teams.

I just wonder if we could see that limit revoked, and we be able to sign as many as needed.

It would be hard for some players who don't produce. But, at the same time, if you give a guy a football scholarship for a year or two, and you pay for his general education courses to be knocked out and his room and board, then you definitely don't owe him anything if he's not contributing to your football team.

What do you guys think? Do you want to see the limit revoked? Think it will be? How would it change recruiting in the SEC?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#2
#2
Now that Mike Slive is retiring....

Does anyone think that the new Commissioner might repeal the 25 signee limit for the SEC?

It's a serious limitation for the SEC. And yes, it sucks for players.

But...look at what's happening. We lost the championship last year, and we won't win it this year. The West is tanking to other teams.

I just wonder if we could see that limit revoked, and we be able to sign as many as needed.

It would be hard for some players who don't produce. But, at the same time, if you give a guy a football scholarship for a year or two, and you pay for his general education courses to be knocked out and his room and board, then you definitely don't owe him anything if he's not contributing to your football team.

What do you guys think? Do you want to see the limit revoked? Think it will be? How would it change recruiting in the SEC?

Yes it should be revoked. Unless the whole NCAA has to comply with it. But while we're at it. Squash the 85 limit. It's stupid to have a 25/class with each player technically having 5 years of eligibility. Then cap the team at 85.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#3
#3
What limits, if any, have the other conferences imposed on its teams?
 
#4
#4
If I could re-do the structure of College Football, here's how I would do it.

I would keep the limit of 85 players. But I would make it 85 ACTIVE players. I mean, Charles Mosley technically counts towards our limit of 85, but yet, never contributed even in a practice snap. I don't like that.

So here's what I would do:

I would mandate that all players receive an initial redshirt year. A school can "sign" however many it desires, but no matter who they "sign," they must redshirt them the first year.

Then, the school must maintain 85 or less non-redshirted players.

So, let's say then that I have:

25 Redshirted Freshmen (It's their second year in the program, first year to contribute)
20 RS Sophomores
20 RS Juniors
20 RS Seniors

I have then 85 players on my active roster.

However, I signed 35 True Freshmen.

The 35 True Freshmen undergo a redshirt year, where they spend time learning the playbook and the practice routine. They go through a year of strength and conditioning. They get the first year of full-time school down. They decide if the university is going to be a fit for them or not.

IF during or immediately after the redshirt year, the player fails to make the grades or does not desire to remain at that school, or the coaches determine it's not going to work out, then they can peacefully part ways with the school with no costs incurred to the player. They could then go join the active roster of another school if they wanted.

But let's say that after the first year, the 20 seniors graduate, leaving 20 spots on the team. 30 freshmen remain, 5 left on their own terms.

The coaches can decide on the 10 players who will be asked to leave, no costs incurred to the players. These players could be from any class, just as it is in reality.

Therefore, you have once again, 85 active players.

If a coach dismisses a player because he is not productive after his redshirt year, or if there is an injury after his redshirt year that would cause him to not be able to play again, then no cost is incurred to the player.

BUT...let's say a player goes through his initial year, does well, and then becomes an active player. Then let's say he decides to not go to class and fails his classes. Then not only is he off the team, leaving a spot open, but he has to pay back that money that the school spent on him in the form of student loans just like everyone else. Or if the player is booted for disciplinary reasons, then he will have to pay back that money just like everyone else.

So, basically, I'm proposing the following:

1) Each player gets 5 years on campus. The first is a mandatory redshirt year in order to support academic support, college life acclimation, and physical readiness as well as injury protection.

2) After the first "redshirt" year, each player is allowed to determine whether or not they would like to remain as a student at their university of initial choice. If not, they may leave with no cost incurred.

3) If the student stays, they then become a part of the active roster. After that, if they leave on their own will, or if they are dismissed for grades or behavior, then they must take on the costs of all charged incurred to that point.

4) However, if the coaches dismisses them out of necessity or due to performance, then they will not be responsible for any finances. Call it a "Coach's Release."

5) Coaches must maintain a active roster of 85 or less players, but can recruit and sign as many "freshmen" as they desire.


IMO, this would drastically be better. It would take so much pressure and strain off of college athletes. And it would also protect college programs. Most players know after a year or so if they want to stay or not. And most coaches know after a year or so who is going to work out and who won't.

If a kid isn't a good student, or if he is not going to pan out, you'd catch it in the first year. But it also helps to protect your program from future hurt. Think about how many freshmen we lose. Most kids don't make it past their first year here. Some kids simply are not cut out for college. But when a kid like Henderson or Helm leave, then it doesn't help us immediately, it'll be 2016 before we can claim that spot.

What if we could sign as many as we wanted, give them a full year in our program, getting them physically ready, and getting them acclimated to college life, taking full time, general education schedules, and then after a year, if they're still excited about being here, still progressing well, still doing well in their classes, we allow them to be a part of the team, with the knowledge of any behavior or grade issues suddenly mean that they take on a WHOLE lot of debt?

It bothers me that a kid like Nu'Keese Richardson can come here completely free of charge, do what he did, and then leave here with no debt to his name, while other students are making 4.0's, behaving great, and leaving with mountains of debt.

If a football player is "on scholarship" then he better be performing well in the classroom and behaving well. And if he doesn't, then I want him to have to pay the debt that other people who don't get that same luxury have to pay.

But if this happened, then the University is only paying for students that behaved well, did well in the classroom, performed on the field, or who respectfully decided Tennessee was not right for them as soon as they realized it.

Wow, I rambled. Sorry guys. Just wish we did so many things differently. Feel like the system gets abused.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#5
#5
a cut and paste about big 10 from 2011

Big Ten banned oversigning in 1956. The league in 2002 implemented a rule that allows schools to oversign by three players as long as they document how they fell below the 85-man scholarship limit for football and how they came back into compliance. But the Big Ten avoids the type of oversigning that often occurs in leagues like the SEC and Big 12.
 
#7
#7
Plus, it also says that we could take guys who want to be Volunteers that we may not have had "room for" otherwise. What if we do take a guy like Rocky Reid with what I just proposed, and he comes in for a "redshirt" year, and then blows it out of the water? Do I want him on my team? Absolutely. Am I gonna keep him? Absolutely. He got the shot to prove himself, and did it.

It would also protect you against complete and total busts. You sign a guy, he comes in, you realize his work ethic is garbage and he just can't handle college, his high school GPA was a fluke. Do you keep him? Nope. You part ways. He was a bad mistake, but you both figured it out in time. Cut him loose, allow him to transfer to someone else's roster if they want him, but you don't have to allow him a spot on yours. You make sure you have the 85 you want, and it encourages players to stay for at least 3-4 years. Would cut down on discipline problems, and on academic issues. APR's would go up everywhere, because they're no longer on a "free ride." They're on a "conditional free ride."

This protects the school, because if a player gets booted because of academics or behaviors, since they chose to continue at the school, then they are responsible for repaying the debts that the school incurred, therefore, it's zero loss to the school for a player who broke the agreement. The only "loss" the school would incur are for players who came in and coaches agreed perform to standard both on and off the field all five years. That's an investment worth making, IMO.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#8
#8
Bama lost!!! Who cares why or who caused it?

It's not necessarily about Bama winning or losing. It's about the fact that our conference is limited in ways that other schools are not, and though it's a small limitation, it may hurt us as other conferences grow stronger since they don't have those limitations.

For instance, a overhaul in the SEC like what we're doing could be accomplished much quicker in another conference. Another conference would allow a signing class of 40 players if the coach needed that to happen in order to reach 85 or in order to build the roster needed to be successful.

Butch brought in 35 last year, but it was only by loophole after loophole. If the SEC did not have the rule, then theoretically, he could cut anybody he saw as dead weight, and sign his guys to replace them, and have a roster full of "his" guys quicker, therefore, being able to change things even quicker than he has. So, it does effect teams in desperate need of overhaul.

Example: If Harbaugh walks into Michigan, determines immediately that some 20 guys don't fit his system, he can not renew their scholarship, and then go sign an additional 20 guys to take their places. Granted, yes, they're freshmen, but they would still be his players in his system, and in a few years it would probably pay greater dividends than keeping players that did not work with what he does, and trying to force them to.

Just saying, really dislike the SEC imposed limit. Want it changed.

College football is becoming more business-like, and I think it's a great thing. I mean, I realize they're kids, but this is how the real world works. Kids on an academic scholarship, if they don't perform, lose their scholarship, sometimes owe money, and are sent packing. Sales people who don't meet their quotas are fired. Coaches who don't win games are fired. I mean, it's the real world.

This is showing that. It's not a "Oh, well, you will never see the field here, but you give good effort, so we are going to keep you around." I like the sentimental value of that, but the fact is, it's becoming harder and harder to do that. Coaches are getting paid more than ever to put a profitable product on the field. The better you are, the more money you make. Universities don't want to invest in athletes that are not helping them make money.

Don't know. I just see the landscape changing as the economy changes, and as things become more cut throat.
 
#9
#9
If I could re-do the structure of College Football, here's how I would do it.

I would keep the limit of 85 players. But I would make it 85 ACTIVE players. I mean, Charles Mosley technically counts towards our limit of 85, but yet, never contributed even in a practice snap. I don't like that.

So here's what I would do:

I would mandate that all players receive an initial redshirt year. A school can "sign" however many it desires, but no matter who they "sign," they must redshirt them the first year.

Then, the school must maintain 85 or less non-redshirted players.

So, let's say then that I have:

25 Redshirted Freshmen (It's their second year in the program, first year to contribute)
20 RS Sophomores
20 RS Juniors
20 RS Seniors

I have then 85 players on my active roster.

However, I signed 35 True Freshmen.

The 35 True Freshmen undergo a redshirt year, where they spend time learning the playbook and the practice routine. They go through a year of strength and conditioning. They get the first year of full-time school down. They decide if the university is going to be a fit for them or not.

IF during or immediately after the redshirt year, the player fails to make the grades or does not desire to remain at that school, or the coaches determine it's not going to work out, then they can peacefully part ways with the school with no costs incurred to the player. They could then go join the active roster of another school if they wanted.

But let's say that after the first year, the 20 seniors graduate, leaving 20 spots on the team. 30 freshmen remain, 5 left on their own terms.

The coaches can decide on the 10 players who will be asked to leave, no costs incurred to the players. These players could be from any class, just as it is in reality.

Therefore, you have once again, 85 active players.

If a coach dismisses a player because he is not productive after his redshirt year, or if there is an injury after his redshirt year that would cause him to not be able to play again, then no cost is incurred to the player.

BUT...let's say a player goes through his initial year, does well, and then becomes an active player. Then let's say he decides to not go to class and fails his classes. Then not only is he off the team, leaving a spot open, but he has to pay back that money that the school spent on him in the form of student loans just like everyone else. Or if the player is booted for disciplinary reasons, then he will have to pay back that money just like everyone else.

So, basically, I'm proposing the following:

1) Each player gets 5 years on campus. The first is a mandatory redshirt year in order to support academic support, college life acclimation, and physical readiness as well as injury protection.

2) After the first "redshirt" year, each player is allowed to determine whether or not they would like to remain as a student at their university of initial choice. If not, they may leave with no cost incurred.

3) If the student stays, they then become a part of the active roster. After that, if they leave on their own will, or if they are dismissed for grades or behavior, then they must take on the costs of all charged incurred to that point.

4) However, if the coaches dismisses them out of necessity or due to performance, then they will not be responsible for any finances. Call it a "Coach's Release."

5) Coaches must maintain a active roster of 85 or less players, but can recruit and sign as many "freshmen" as they desire.


IMO, this would drastically be better. It would take so much pressure and strain off of college athletes. And it would also protect college programs. Most players know after a year or so if they want to stay or not. And most coaches know after a year or so who is going to work out and who won't.

If a kid isn't a good student, or if he is not going to pan out, you'd catch it in the first year. But it also helps to protect your program from future hurt. Think about how many freshmen we lose. Most kids don't make it past their first year here. Some kids simply are not cut out for college. But when a kid like Henderson or Helm leave, then it doesn't help us immediately, it'll be 2016 before we can claim that spot.

What if we could sign as many as we wanted, give them a full year in our program, getting them physically ready, and getting them acclimated to college life, taking full time, general education schedules, and then after a year, if they're still excited about being here, still progressing well, still doing well in their classes, we allow them to be a part of the team, with the knowledge of any behavior or grade issues suddenly mean that they take on a WHOLE lot of debt?

It bothers me that a kid like Nu'Keese Richardson can come here completely free of charge, do what he did, and then leave here with no debt to his name, while other students are making 4.0's, behaving great, and leaving with mountains of debt.

If a football player is "on scholarship" then he better be performing well in the classroom and behaving well. And if he doesn't, then I want him to have to pay the debt that other people who don't get that same luxury have to pay.

But if this happened, then the University is only paying for students that behaved well, did well in the classroom, performed on the field, or who respectfully decided Tennessee was not right for them as soon as they realized it.

Wow, I rambled. Sorry guys. Just wish we did so many things differently. Feel like the system gets abused.

Unless I read this wrong, based on your proposal, if currently implemented, would mean that Barnett and Hurd would not have played this year, along with a multitude of other contributors. That would have seriously negatively impacted our season because of our lack of depth at most positions. I think the overall premise of your concept is ok, just needs to consider that some freshman players out perform upper-class men and need to be able to play immediately. It almost sounds like you are proposing a throwback to the old JV days, minus JV competition.
 
#10
#10
If I could re-do the structure of College Football, here's how I would do it.

I would keep the limit of 85 players. But I would make it 85 ACTIVE players. I mean, Charles Mosley technically counts towards our limit of 85, but yet, never contributed even in a practice snap. I don't like that.

So here's what I would do:

I would mandate that all players receive an initial redshirt year. A school can "sign" however many it desires, but no matter who they "sign," they must redshirt them the first year.

Then, the school must maintain 85 or less non-redshirted players.

So, let's say then that I have:

25 Redshirted Freshmen (It's their second year in the program, first year to contribute)
20 RS Sophomores
20 RS Juniors
20 RS Seniors

I have then 85 players on my active roster.

However, I signed 35 True Freshmen.

The 35 True Freshmen undergo a redshirt year, where they spend time learning the playbook and the practice routine. They go through a year of strength and conditioning. They get the first year of full-time school down. They decide if the university is going to be a fit for them or not.

IF during or immediately after the redshirt year, the player fails to make the grades or does not desire to remain at that school, or the coaches determine it's not going to work out, then they can peacefully part ways with the school with no costs incurred to the player. They could then go join the active roster of another school if they wanted.

But let's say that after the first year, the 20 seniors graduate, leaving 20 spots on the team. 30 freshmen remain, 5 left on their own terms.

The coaches can decide on the 10 players who will be asked to leave, no costs incurred to the players. These players could be from any class, just as it is in reality.

Therefore, you have once again, 85 active players.

If a coach dismisses a player because he is not productive after his redshirt year, or if there is an injury after his redshirt year that would cause him to not be able to play again, then no cost is incurred to the player.

BUT...let's say a player goes through his initial year, does well, and then becomes an active player. Then let's say he decides to not go to class and fails his classes. Then not only is he off the team, leaving a spot open, but he has to pay back that money that the school spent on him in the form of student loans just like everyone else. Or if the player is booted for disciplinary reasons, then he will have to pay back that money just like everyone else.

So, basically, I'm proposing the following:

1) Each player gets 5 years on campus. The first is a mandatory redshirt year in order to support academic support, college life acclimation, and physical readiness as well as injury protection.

2) After the first "redshirt" year, each player is allowed to determine whether or not they would like to remain as a student at their university of initial choice. If not, they may leave with no cost incurred.

3) If the student stays, they then become a part of the active roster. After that, if they leave on their own will, or if they are dismissed for grades or behavior, then they must take on the costs of all charged incurred to that point.

4) However, if the coaches dismisses them out of necessity or due to performance, then they will not be responsible for any finances. Call it a "Coach's Release."

5) Coaches must maintain a active roster of 85 or less players, but can recruit and sign as many "freshmen" as they desire.


IMO, this would drastically be better. It would take so much pressure and strain off of college athletes. And it would also protect college programs. Most players know after a year or so if they want to stay or not. And most coaches know after a year or so who is going to work out and who won't.

If a kid isn't a good student, or if he is not going to pan out, you'd catch it in the first year. But it also helps to protect your program from future hurt. Think about how many freshmen we lose. Most kids don't make it past their first year here. Some kids simply are not cut out for college. But when a kid like Henderson or Helm leave, then it doesn't help us immediately, it'll be 2016 before we can claim that spot.

What if we could sign as many as we wanted, give them a full year in our program, getting them physically ready, and getting them acclimated to college life, taking full time, general education schedules, and then after a year, if they're still excited about being here, still progressing well, still doing well in their classes, we allow them to be a part of the team, with the knowledge of any behavior or grade issues suddenly mean that they take on a WHOLE lot of debt?

It bothers me that a kid like Nu'Keese Richardson can come here completely free of charge, do what he did, and then leave here with no debt to his name, while other students are making 4.0's, behaving great, and leaving with mountains of debt.

If a football player is "on scholarship" then he better be performing well in the classroom and behaving well. And if he doesn't, then I want him to have to pay the debt that other people who don't get that same luxury have to pay.

But if this happened, then the University is only paying for students that behaved well, did well in the classroom, performed on the field, or who respectfully decided Tennessee was not right for them as soon as they realized it.

Wow, I rambled. Sorry guys. Just wish we did so many things differently. Feel like the system gets abused.

How do you propose to handle Title IX requirements?
 
#11
#11
If I could re-do the structure of College Football, here's how I would do it.

I would keep the limit of 85 players. But I would make it 85 ACTIVE players. I mean, Charles Mosley technically counts towards our limit of 85, but yet, never contributed even in a practice snap. I don't like that.

So here's what I would do:

I would mandate that all players receive an initial redshirt year.

Stopped reading after that sentence. You basically just killed our season, if you're in charge. The NCAA once had rules like that, and the tragedy at Marshall helped lift that ban. The current setup is fine, and I see no reason to change.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#13
#13
The 85 limit is scholorhisp players. The next limit i believe is 100 or 105 players total. Not sure if any team has 15 or more walkons though.
 
#14
#14
What would stop a team from taking a freshman class of 70, and then booting 50 of them because they weren't what the coach thought they were. You're basically taking all pressure and responsibility off coaches. We already see some messed up stuff happening to players that did nothing wrong, but not turn into the player the coaches thought they might be able to be. Then you're putting those kids right back on the street, with nowhere to go, hoping that someone else will take them. And why would someone else take them when they know they can sign true freshman and get a year to evaluate them? I like your thoughts as I think you are truly thinking about the university and players, but those numbers and rules are just not good.

I would like to see the limit changed to just a bit higher(maybe 27-30) and the rules around the limit tweaked, but there is a reason it's there.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#15
#15
Stopped reading after that sentence. You basically just killed our season, if you're in charge. The NCAA once had rules like that, and the tragedy at Marshall helped lift that ban. The current setup is fine, and I see no reason to change.

Was about to post this same response. Mandatory redshirts aren't feasible for a number of reasons.

Plus these exhaustively long posts will only be read by the truly bored.

The current rules seem about right to me.
 
#16
#16
Yes it should be revoked. Unless the whole NCAA has to comply with it. But while we're at it. Squash the 85 limit. It's stupid to have a 25/class with each player technically having 5 years of eligibility. Then cap the team at 85.

Coach Johnny Majors? Is that you?
 
#17
#17
What would stop a team from taking a freshman class of 70, and then booting 50 of them because they weren't what the coach thought they were. You're basically taking all pressure and responsibility off coaches. We already see some messed up stuff happening to players that did nothing wrong, but not turn into the player the coaches thought they might be able to be. Then you're putting those kids right back on the street, with nowhere to go, hoping that someone else will take them. And why would someone else take them when they know they can sign true freshman and get a year to evaluate them? I like your thoughts as I think you are truly thinking about the university and players, but those numbers and rules are just not good.

I would like to see the limit changed to just a bit higher(maybe 27-30) and the rules around the limit tweaked, but there is a reason it's there.

It's been done before.

In 1973 Johnny Majors signed 76 players at Pitt.

In 1976 he won a natty.
 
#19
#19
EAST – DT*Kyle Phillips
He was easily the top defender in this game. Phillips made a living in the backfield logging multiple sacks and tackles for loss. There’s no doubt that*Tennessee*(newly committed) got a guy who will wreak some havoc in the SEC.

-scout
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#20
#20
It's not necessarily about Bama winning or losing. It's about the fact that our conference is limited in ways that other schools are not, and though it's a small limitation, it may hurt us as other conferences grow stronger since they don't have those limitations.

For instance, a overhaul in the SEC like what we're doing could be accomplished much quicker in another conference. Another conference would allow a signing class of 40 players if the coach needed that to happen in order to reach 85 or in order to build the roster needed to be successful.

Butch brought in 35 last year, but it was only by loophole after loophole. If the SEC did not have the rule, then theoretically, he could cut anybody he saw as dead weight, and sign his guys to replace them, and have a roster full of "his" guys quicker, therefore, being able to change things even quicker than he has. So, it does effect teams in desperate need of overhaul.

Example: If Harbaugh walks into Michigan, determines immediately that some 20 guys don't fit his system, he can not renew their scholarship, and then go sign an additional 20 guys to take their places. Granted, yes, they're freshmen, but they would still be his players in his system, and in a few years it would probably pay greater dividends than keeping players that did not work with what he does, and trying to force them to.

Just saying, really dislike the SEC imposed limit. Want it changed.

College football is becoming more business-like, and I think it's a great thing. I mean, I realize they're kids, but this is how the real world works. Kids on an academic scholarship, if they don't perform, lose their scholarship, sometimes owe money, and are sent packing. Sales people who don't meet their quotas are fired. Coaches who don't win games are fired. I mean, it's the real world.

This is showing that. It's not a "Oh, well, you will never see the field here, but you give good effort, so we are going to keep you around." I like the sentimental value of that, but the fact is, it's becoming harder and harder to do that. Coaches are getting paid more than ever to put a profitable product on the field. The better you are, the more money you make. Universities don't want to invest in athletes that are not helping them make money.

Don't know. I just see the landscape changing as the economy changes, and as things become more cut throat.

The NCAA limit for signees is still 28 not including EE's who may be backcounted, if I recall correctly. I think it's impossible for anyone to sign 40 in a class because you can only backcount 6 I believe and backcounts only occur if you didn't take a full class the year before. So 28 NCAA limit + 6 backcounted EE's = 34 max.
 
#22
#22
The NCAA limit for signees is still 28 not including EE's who may be backcounted, if I recall correctly. I think it's impossible for anyone to sign 40 in a class because you can only backcount 6 I believe and backcounts only occur if you didn't take a full class the year before. So 28 NCAA limit + 6 backcounted EE's = 34 max.

The NCAA limits schools to 25 signees from Dec 1 to May 31 of each year. Was 28 at one time but it is now 25.

Also limits schools to 25 initial counters and 85 total counters (as we know).

What gets lost in all of this discussion is the devil is in the detail and there are a TON of details surrounding the governance of signees & enrollees and the dates when students sign and enroll. Things can be very complex when managing the imposed limits. Im convinced even most credentialed media members couldnt fully articulate the rules (and defenitely not without researching first).

Read chapter 15 of ncaa 2014-15 division I manual if you really want to be informed. However, schools have full-time staff managing this for a reason, and its best to let them do their job and enjoy the prospective SAs we sign to represent UT!
 

VN Store



Back
Top