Why Shoop isn't a problem (Long)

[yuenglinguy78]

First, I want to say I use to be very critical about Shoop. I consider myself slightly intelligent when it comes to football, but I am no genius by any means. My dad has taught me over the years a lot about the game more than just the final score.

I see a lot of people on here and other social media that complain about Shoop being the problem and there is a few things that I want too point out. I am not going to talk about every game because this thread would be 54835824 words long.

If you didn't watch the Georgia game and heard the score 41-0 you would say, "Jeez did Tennessee put a defense on the field?" If you actually look at it though it wasn't our defense that made it 41-0.

Lets start with the first play of the game, we throw a pick on our 27 yard line. So, the offense has already dug the defense in a hole and Georgia only has to go 27 yards. They come out and run 3 plays for only a total of 7 yards and get the field goal. Good defensive stand.

Georgia kicks it off and we go 3 plays for a total of 1 yard and we punt. Georgia fields the punt and their first play on that drive Vickers gets a sack and they go 3 plays for 0 yards and punt. Good defensive stand.

We field the punt and yet again go 3 plays for a total of 3 yards and punt. Georgia gets a good punt return for 18 yards and puts them about at the 50. This drive we have them on 3rd and 11 and they complete a pass to Godwin and Warrior forces a fumble that they recover and eventually get the TD on this drive. How wore out do you think the defense was by this time because our offense couldn't give them more than a 3 play break?

They kickoff to us and we run 7 plays for 28 yards and punt for a touch back. Our defense comes out and holds them yet again for 3 plays and only 5 yards gained and force them to punt. We field the punt and go 3 plays for only 7 yards and have to punt again.

2 plays into this Georgia drive Martin gets an interception for us on the Georgia 27. We come out with a great scoring opportunity only down 10-0 and 2 plays into our drive we fumble and Georgia recovers. By this time our defense has given us so many opportunities it is unreal that we haven't put 1 point on the board.

Even after Georgia gets the fumble our defense holds them to 3 plays for 0 yards and force the punt. Yet again our offense comes out and runs 3 plays for a total of 4 yards and has too punt.

The next Georgia drive is where you can start to see the defense is getting tired. They go 11 plays for 87 yards and a touchdown.

They kickoff to us and the first play of our drive is an interception and Reed returns it for 34 yards to our 26 yard line. Here we go again defense has to come out and stop them from going only 26 yards with virtually no breather.

Then it's halftime and I am not going into as much detail on the second half because this is getting so long, but the last two touchdowns they had they only had to go a combined 81 yards. So it is like they basically started on the 40.5 Tennessee yard line those two drives. We also made them punt two more times in the second half. We lost a fumble and had to punt 3 more times in the second half.

With all that said if you are still here reading this Shoop's defense isn't that bad. It's our offense that keeps digging us in holes.

Shoop isn't the problem, the offense is.

 

[zydane47]

Agreed, with the way the defense was playing, had the offense even gotten something going this could've been a closer game, maybe even a win with how the defense was holding UGA's offense in check.

Sadly our offense can't seem to do anything right outside of the RBs and we have what we got Saturday, a thrashing that should've never happaned

 

[rjd970]

Shoop gets a bad name on here sometimes, but I think he's a solid DC. The defense certainly does enough to win games. It's a shame the stats don't reflect this.

 

[ALLVOL 4LIFE]

I agree 100% and this has been a problem since Butch has been here, with the exception of last year. Our defense is the backbone of this team and i think Shoop has done a hell of a job considering the injuries we continue to deal with on that side of the ball.

 

[Orange_Vol1321]

If our Offense had a pulse we would've been in the game Saturday.


Everybody said when Shoop was hired he would be here two years and have a HC job somewhere. If Currie has to make a move does he give Shoop an interview?

 

[zydane47]

If our Offense had a pulse we would've been in the game Saturday.


Everybody said when Shoop was hired he would be here two years and have a HC job somewhere. If Currie has to make a move does he give Shoop an interview?

I could see him giving him an interview, but if he's trying to get away from the Jones era, then no one on staff would be seriously considered for the HC job.

I think if Shoop were to get hired I think he'd do well, but you'd have fans already on his butt the moment the decision was announced so he'd never get a fair shake from some.

 

[05_never_again]

I'm willing to cut Shoop a lot of slack because of the success he had defensively at Vanderbilt and Penn State. However it is important to keep in mind that Vandy and Penn State's defenses have been just fine since he left, and his defenses here haven't played as well as anyone has hoped. They haven't been unmitigated disasters, but they haven't met expectations (no different than the entire team).

I know he has dealt with injuries, but Shoop's defensive lines underachieve and his secondaries aren't good at all. Both of those units have/had a single great player that anchored each unit (Derek Barnett, Cam Sutton) but that apparently wasn't enough to elevate the play of the group. If it wasn't for Barnett staying healthy and having a great year last year, I shudder to think of how our defense would have performed. There are elite athletes on the defensive line right now that don't play like it.

 

[zydane47]

I'm willing to cut Shoop a lot of slack because of the success he had defensively at Vanderbilt and Penn State. However it is important to keep in mind that Vandy and Penn State's defenses have been just fine since he left, and his defenses here haven't played as well as anyone has hoped. They haven't been unmitigated disasters, but they haven't met expectations (no different than the entire team).

I know he has dealt with injuries, but Shoop's defensive lines underachieve and his secondaries aren't good at all. Both of those units have/had a single great player that anchored each unit (Derek Barnett, Cam Sutton) but that apparently wasn't enough to elevate the play of the group. If it wasn't for Barnett staying healthy and having a great year last year, I shudder to think of how our defense would have performed. There are elite athletes on the defensive line right now that don't play like it.

At the same time to your point, he brought no assistants with him form Penn State, they're all still there, could be why there has been no drop off there.

Also Derek Mason is renowned for being a defensive coach, so I can see why they are good, plus that's a totally different staff so you can't put that on Shoop either.

There just seems to be something else going on that's causing this to happen. You don't just forget how to be a good coach.

So it's one of three things, either it's wrong type of players to fit his scheme, wrong assistants, or Jones is getting in his way.

 

[TripleT512]

I'm willing to cut Shoop a lot of slack because of the success he had defensively at Vanderbilt and Penn State. However it is important to keep in mind that Vandy and Penn State's defenses have been just fine since he left, and his defenses here haven't played as well as anyone has hoped. They haven't been unmitigated disasters, but they haven't met expectations (no different than the entire team).

I know he has dealt with injuries, but Shoop's defensive lines underachieve and his secondaries aren't good at all. Both of those units have/had a single great player that anchored each unit (Derek Barnett, Cam Sutton) but that apparently wasn't enough to elevate the play of the group. If it wasn't for Barnett staying healthy and having a great year last year, I shudder to think of how our defense would have performed. There are elite athletes on the defensive line right now that don't play like it.

Keep in mind that none of the defensive position coaches are/were "Shoop's guys". I am willing to cut him some slack, but agree he needs to prove he is as good as he has been hyped. Maybe with more control, he could do that.

 

[bpalmer28]

TLDNR, but I our defense has looked good lately. Yes, they gave up 41 points, but the offense couldn't stay on the field and never capitalized on big plays from the defense... which is demoralizing.

 

[05_never_again]

So it's one of three things, either it's wrong type of players to fit his scheme, wrong assistants, or Jones is getting in his way.

As easy as it would be to blame Butch for this, I don't think he's getting in Shoop's way. Butch has never been a defensive coach and you don't interfere in the day-to-day operations of your defensive coordinator who's making in excess of $1m/year.

I think it is a combination of injuries and not having players/coaches on board that fit what he wants to do. I assume he had at least a hand in choosing Charlton Warren as the new secondary coach, but that unit hasn't materially improved from last season.

At Vandy and Penn State, I'm assuming he was working with assistants he had picked. He was part of Franklin's initial staff when he arrived at Vandy and followed him to Penn State. As far as the players, at least at Penn State, those largely would not have been guys he recruited. He was only there for 2 years, and in his first couple of years at Vandy those largely weren't players that he had personally recruited either.

 

[zydane47]

As easy as it would be to blame Butch for this, I don't think he's getting in Shoop's way. Butch has never been a defensive coach and you don't interfere in the day-to-day operations of your defensive coordinator who's making in excess of $1m/year.

I think it is a combination of injuries and not having players/coaches on board that fit what he wants to do. I assume he had at least a hand in choosing Charlton Warren as the new secondary coach, but that unit hasn't materially improved from last season.

At Vandy and Penn State, I'm assuming he was working with assistants he had picked. He was part of Franklin's initial staff when he arrived at Vandy and followed him to Penn State. As far as the players, at least at Penn State, those largely would not have been guys he recruited. He was only there for 2 years, and in his first couple of years at Vandy those largely weren't players that he had personally recruited either.

So I guess the question is, when it comes to recruiting is Butch and Co. not targeting the guys that Shoop wants?

There are probably a couple factors involved with why we're seeing what we're seeing but I don't think Shoop is squarely to blame for the issues.

Just seems really odd is all

 

[tbones0711]

I could see him giving him an interview, but if he's trying to get away from the Jones era, then no one on staff would be seriously considered for the HC job.

I think if Shoop were to get hired I think he'd do well, but you'd have fans already on his butt the moment the decision was announced so he'd never get a fair shake from some.

Jesus wouldn't get a fair shake from 100% of the UT fanbase and furthermore anyone wanting, getting an interview should be fully aware of the expectations of the fans before an AD brings it to their attention.

 

[schwompal]

The original post sets up a false dichotomy--that it must be the offense or the defense. It's actually both. Shoop is a bad coordinator, and Scott is a bad coordinator.

 

[05_never_again]

So I guess the question is, when it comes to recruiting is Butch and Co. not targeting the guys that Shoop wants?

There are probably a couple factors involved with why we're seeing what we're seeing but I don't think Shoop is squarely to blame for the issues.

Just seems really odd is all

I'm not real sure. For the most part, Shoop is still coaching players that arrived before he got here. He's has only been around for a full recruiting cycle once (the 2017 class). So if Butch is not targeting the guys that Shoop wants, it's not like it would matter yet because those guys Butch is recruiting over Shoop's objections would be true freshmen for the most part. Even a young guy like Daniel Bituli, who was in the class of 2016 and officially signed a month after Shoop got here, committed back in 2015 before he arrived. Just due to the shortness of his tenure here, Shoop would not have much say over this roster.

 

[05_never_again]

The original post sets up a false dichotomy--that it must be the offense or the defense. It's actually both. Shoop is a bad coordinator, and Scott is a bad coordinator.

I don't know if you know Shoop's history, but he certainly is not a bad defensive coordinator. Scott calls plays as if he's never done this before at the college level...and whaddya know, he hasn't!

 

[37620VOL]

The defense has been acceptable this year, sans GT game. I would wager that their points/drive in SEC play will be in the top 3rd of the league. It's just that they have to defend so many drives due to the low T.O.P. offense.

 

[yuenglinguy78]

The original post sets up a false dichotomy--that it must be the offense or the defense. It's actually both. Shoop is a bad coordinator, and Scott is a bad coordinator.

a. You obviously don't know anything about Shoop.

b. It's his second year was he suppose to come out and shut everyone out?

c. He literally is playing with 0 of his recruits.

 

[05_never_again]

The defense has been acceptable this year, sans GT game. I would wager that their points/drive in SEC play will be in the top 3rd of the league. It's just that they have to defend so many drives due to the low T.O.P. offense.

If we had a functioning offense against Georgia (not even a good one, just one that could move the ball) we could have held Georgia to about 21-24 points. I think they demonstrated that by their play in the first quarter and a half.

 

[schwompal]

I don't know if you know Shoop's history, but he certainly is not a bad defensive coordinator. Scott calls plays as if he's never done this before at the college level...and whaddya know, he hasn't!

He was billed as a good d-coordinator because of Vandy and Penn State, but given Shoop's experience here at Tennessee through 16 or 17 games, he's been bad. There have been Sal Sunseri-esque moments of awful. Mizzou last year is one good example.

 

[tbones0711]

As easy as it would be to blame Butch for this, I don't think he's getting in Shoop's way. Butch has never been a defensive coach and you don't interfere in the day-to-day operations of your defensive coordinator who's making in excess of $1m/year.

I think it is a combination of injuries and not having players/coaches on board that fit what he wants to do. I assume he had at least a hand in choosing Charlton Warren as the new secondary coach, but that unit hasn't materially improved from last season.

At Vandy and Penn State, I'm assuming he was working with assistants he had picked. He was part of Franklin's initial staff when he arrived at Vandy and followed him to Penn State. As far as the players, at least at Penn State, those largely would not have been guys he recruited. He was only there for 2 years, and in his first couple of years at Vandy those largely weren't players that he had personally recruited either.

Coach Thig,(LBer's), was on the BJ's Show after UMass and went to lengths explaining LBer play and the system is kinda complex because it involves shifting and playcalling. It's difficult to just step into with athletic ability alone. I see Bituli learning the system well enough to call plays very soon. DKjr was meant to be QB of the D but that fell through. I'd let Shoop be our HC in the same manner I felt that Chavis should have been retained after CPF left. Continuity being a keyword here and good prospects in 2018 class.
UT needs an offensive "mastermind". Should have gotten one in here a few days after DeBord took UI job.

 

[05_never_again]

He was billed as a good d-coordinator because of Vandy and Penn State, but given Shoop's experience here at Tennessee through 16 or 17 games, he's been bad. There have been Sal Sunseri-esque moments of awful. Mizzou last year is one good example.

I agree that the rush defense was bad in the second half of last season, but he had a makeshift defensive line (had to start Kongbo at DT) and a decimated LB corps. We weren't even technically starting a 3rd stringer at DT; we were playing a guy out of position at DT.

Since Shoop arrived, Kirkland has barely played due to injury. I don't think his loss can be overstated because he was the defensive playcaller and Shoop's defensive schemes supposedly are very complex. The coaching staff and Shoop in particular made comments last year that seemed to indicate Kirkland was one of the few guys who "got" the defense and they were relying on him to essentially be a coach on the field. Shoop has been here for 18 games and Kirkland has only played in 8 of them.

 

[05_never_again]

Coach Thig,(LBer's), was on the BJ's Show after UMass and went to lengths explaining LBer play and the system is kinda complex because it involves shifting and playcalling. It's difficult to just step into with athletic ability alone. I see Bituli learning the system well enough to call plays very soon. DKjr was meant to be QB of the D but that fell through. I'd let Shoop be our HC in the same manner I felt that Chavis should have been retained after CPF left. Continuity being a keyword here and good prospects in 2018 class.
UT needs an offensive "mastermind". Should have gotten one in here a few days after DeBord took UI job.

Butch will not bring an offensive mastermind onto his staff because he controls the offense.

 

[schwompal]

I agree that the rush defense was bad in the second half of last season, but he had a makeshift defensive line (had to start Kongbo at DT) and a decimated LB corps. We weren't even technically starting a 3rd stringer at DT; we were playing a guy out of position at DT.

Since Shoop arrived, Kirkland has barely played due to injury. I don't think his loss can be overstated because he was the defensive playcaller and Shoop's defensive schemes supposedly are very complex. The coaching staff and Shoop in particular made comments last year that seemed to indicate Kirkland was one of the few guys who "got" the defense and they were relying on him to essentially be a coach on the field. Shoop has been here for 18 games and Kirkland has only played in 8 of them.

Jancek did better with injuries and with a less talented roster. The same could be said of just about every d-coordinator in the last 10 years, except Sunseri. Tennessee is 71st in total defense this year. That's horrendous.

 

[37620VOL]

Jancek had better DTs and LBs on the field.