Let's Clear Some Stuff Up- An Overview

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GRN1926

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#1
Since we seem to be headed in the direction of as coaching change I thought it'd be good to clear-up a few misconceptions about TN, the hires we've made, and what reality we are facing with hiring a new coach in a multi-post overview.

Flame away.

"TN always go after the mediocre coach"

We have done this in the past but this not consistent in our history. Timing, complete incompetence, and circumstances have got us where we are today. Here is the breakdown of the why and circumstances surrounding our last 5 coaching hires and looking forward:

1. Majors
2. Fulmer
3. Kiffin
4. Dooley
5. Butch
6. Why TN is in a strong position
7. What could go wrong
 
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#2
#2
P1

1. Johnny Majors: NC winning coach, coached Heisman winner, and was hottest coach in country when he came home. Obviously a TN guy but it shouldn't be discounted that we got him and he sacrificed a lot to come home. This was a big deal

2. Fulmer: Another TN guy, how lucky we were. He was the top up and coming coach in America. Dickey made the tough move to push-out a HOF football coach to keep Fulmer in orange. Again, a big deal.*
 
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#4
#4
P1

1. Johnny Majors: NC winning coach, coached Heisman winner, and was hottest coach in country when he came home. Obviously a TN guy but it shouldn't be discounted that we got him and he sacrificed a lot to come home. This was a big deal

2. Fulmer: Another TN guy, how lucky we were. He was the top up and coming coach in America. Dickey made the tough move to push-out a HOF football coach to keep Fulmer in orange. Again, a big deal.*

Fulmer was promoted because Majors told everyone we were rebuilding and the had a heart attack. While he was out CPF kicked ass. Majors came back and **** the bed.
The end
 
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#5
#5
P2

3. Kiffin: This was big time hire and a true commitment to spending money from the TN leadership. Kiffin was the no.1 target for TN, in his early 30's, considered an offensive genius, and had strong ties to great coaches. Top it off with his hof coach father coming and on paper it was a homerun hire. Kiffin brought what was considered THE best staff in the country and we paid for it, they were the highest paid assistant staff in the country. Now, Kiffin took less money in-order to do this so our total staff cost was only 4th in the SEC. However, the commitment to spending money was there because IF Kiffin had stayed and been successful at a high level then he personally would have gotten raises. So we have to give the leadership credit where credit is due, it was a calculated but strong move by them and a long-term financial commitment to spending big money, Unfortunately it didn't work out and diving into those reasons aren't the point of this post.
 
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#6
#6
Fulmer was promoted because Majors told everyone we were rebuilding and the had a heart attack. While he was out CPF kicked ass. Majors came back and **** the bed.
The end

I wanted to keep the posts short as possible as an overview, figured posters would fill in some of the details.

Was still a tough move by Dickey and Fulmer was one of the top assistants in the country and already known as an elite recruiter.
 
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#7
#7
P3

3. Kiffin- This was big time hire and a true commitment to spending money from the TN leadership. Kiffin was the no.1 target, in his early 30's, considered an offensive genius, and had strong ties to great coaches. Top it off with his hof coach father coming and on paper it was a homerun hire. Kiffin brought what was considered THE best staff in the country and we paid for it, they were the highest paid assistant staff in the country. Now, Kiffin took less money in-order to do this so our total staff cost was only 4th in the SEC. However, the commitment to spending money was there because IF Kiffin had stayed and been successful at a high level then he personally would have gotten raises. So we have to give the leadership credit where credit is due, it was a calculated but strong move by them and a long-term financial commitment to spending big money, Unfortunately, it didn't work out and diving into those reasons aren't the point of this post.
 
#8
#8
I wanted to keep the posts short as possible as an overview, figured posters would fill in some of the details.

Was still a tough move by Dickey and Fulmer was one of the top assistants in the country and already known as an elite recruiter.

I feel like he had no choice. Everyone saw what CPF was capable of so it was make the move or lose Fulmer
 
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#9
#9
Since we seem to be headed in the direction of as coaching change I thought it'd be good to clear-up a few misconceptions about TN, the hires we've made, and what reality we are facing with hiring a new coach in a multi-post overview.

Flame away.

"TN always go after the mediocre coach"

We have done this in the past but this not consistent in our history. Timing, complete incompetence, and circumstances have got us where we are today. Here is the breakdown of the why and circumstances surrounding our last 5 coaching hires and looking forward:

1. Majors
2. Fulmer
3. Kiffin
4. Dooley
5. Butch
6. Why TN is in a strong position
7. What could go wrong



I understand what you are trying to say BUT we actually go after elite coaches but none want to come here so we then go after mediocre coaches........

Gruden, Cowher, Butch Davis, Lovie Smith, Gary Patterson, We offered and they all said NO!!!
 
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#10
#10
Since we seem to be headed in the direction of as coaching change I thought it'd be good to clear-up a few misconceptions about TN, the hires we've made, and what reality we are facing with hiring a new coach in a multi-post overview.

Are we? Volnation and reality are two different things.

Two days ago, Dan Mullen and Derrik Mason had a lot of folks excited. Both got run out Saturday. So much knee jerk here. I think Jones will have to lose at least 4 more SEC games to get chopped.
 
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#11
#11
To keep with the theme here.....so we fire Butch today....are there really any elite coaches available to hire? Honest question, honest concern. Before you jump you need a plan. Just something to ponder
 
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#12
#12
P4

4. Dooley- One word can describe this move: Incompetence. Kiffin bolted 2 weeks before signing day and TN leadership decided it was more important to salvage one recruiting class rather than focus on a positive direction for the future of the entire program. We passed on Sumlin to hire Dooley as well by many accounts, easy decision there even at the time. This move does and should cause concern about the decision making of our leadership. However, it should not tarnish people's opinions of TN's ability to attract a top coach. Face it, the hiring cycle for that season was over. The big names were picked-up and coaches at respectable schools weren't going to leave their programs at the alter 2 weeks before Kiffin did. Everyone saw how fans reacted and the backlash Kiffin took by doing that, they weren't going to put themselves in the same position. The circumstances of this situation and their unwillingness to name an interim coach and wait until next hiring cycle forced TN to go after a lower quality coach like Dooley. The hiring of Dooley was not because TN was an undesirable job, we completely mishandled the situation.
 
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#13
#13
I feel like he had no choice. Everyone saw what CPF was capable of so it was make the move or lose Fulmer

Absolutely, it was obvious he was an elite coach. It proved to be the correct call by Dickey, Doug was a great leader for us. The main reason why we have found ourselves in this situation is why haven't had strong leadership like we did then.
 
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#14
#14
P5

Butch - Let's discuss a bit of this backstory real quick.

We went after Gundy,a big-time hire. We had a verbal commitment from Strong who was considered the no.1 coaching candidate on the market at the time. So the leadership tried to get the best coaches available and was turned down. So we landed with Butch who was a slightly above average coach. We wont get on the pro's and con's of Butch here, it will be discussed ad nauseam on here over the coming weeks.

So why did people turn us down this time? To the point, it was because we had a TERRIBLE roster. That's it, Strong obviously coveted the job enough to commit to the job before changing his mind.. Hiring Butch was a by-product of the bad circumstances TN found itself in due to the incompetent of hiring of Dooley. Plain and simple, the top coaching prospect in the country was all but coming and walked because of the terrible state of TN football at that point in time. Can we blame any coaches for this? They generally get 1 shot at the big-times, why would they want to take a flier on TN right then when the deck was stacked against them? That would be a bad career move, honestly would you leave a good position to go work for a bad company for a bump in pay when you're getting phone calls from other suitors as well? So we had to go get a guy who would take the job because it would be an opportunity he otherwise likely wouldn't get and sincerely hope he could pull it off, enter Butch Jones. This sequence can't be used to value what the TN job is worth in the bigger picture, especially not right now.

As a side note, it should be recognized that Butch is being judged by not achieving the goals his own success has created. He was charged with rebuilding the roster and making TN competitive again, we all knew going in that even if he couldn't win big if he could at least get us back go competitive then he would be considered a success. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. So please, let's not just kick the guy on the way out the door if that is what happens. He has done TN a huge service, yes paid well for it, but he took us off like support.
 
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#15
#15
I understand what you are trying to say BUT we actually go after elite coaches but none want to come here so we then go after mediocre coaches........

Gruden, Cowher, Butch Davis, Lovie Smith, Gary Patterson, We offered and they all said NO!!!

I'll be addressing this directly.
 
#16
#16
Since we seem to be headed in the direction of as coaching change I thought it'd be good to clear-up a few misconceptions about TN, the hires we've made, and what reality we are facing with hiring a new coach in a multi-post overview.

Are we? Volnation and reality are two different things.

Two days ago, Dan Mullen and Derrik Mason had a lot of folks excited. Both got run out Saturday. So much knee jerk here. I think Jones will have to lose at least 4 more SEC games to get chopped.

Totally agree. We have all wanted Butch to succeed, I think if you polled TN fans we would still say the same today. Win 9-3 or 10-2 and we're good.

Does Butch want to stay though? Brent Hubbs openly acknowledge Jones inquired about Purdue job last year. Purdue can't be used for leverage for more pay by TN, that doesn't work. Hired Sexton this off-season. Some smoke on that side as well.
 
#17
#17
To keep with the theme here.....so we fire Butch today....are there really any elite coaches available to hire? Honest question, honest concern. Before you jump you need a plan. Just something to ponder

To be clear I'm not calling for Jones' head in this post. Just addressing some, what I feel, are misunderstandings about TN's ability to hire a coach and what has happened with past hires.

To answer your question, yes. Chip Kelly, and I know it's hotly debated if he would be successful, but he would be considered by everyone in the country to be a homerun hire. Saban, Meyer, Harbough level type hire from a perception level. He's the only guy that I would consider to be labeled "homerun". There are other guys out there that I think would be labeled excellent hires.
 
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#18
#18
P2

3. Kiffin: This was big time hire and a true commitment to spending money from the TN leadership. Kiffin was the no.1 target for TN, in his early 30's, considered an offensive genius, and had strong ties to great coaches. Top it off with his hof coach father coming and on paper it was a homerun hire. Kiffin brought what was considered THE best staff in the country and we paid for it, they were the highest paid assistant staff in the country. Now, Kiffin took less money in-order to do this so our total staff cost was only 4th in the SEC. However, the commitment to spending money was there because IF Kiffin had stayed and been successful at a high level then he personally would have gotten raises. So we have to give the leadership credit where credit is due, it was a calculated but strong move by them and a long-term financial commitment to spending big money, Unfortunately it didn't work out and diving into those reasons aren't the point of this post.
Nice post
 
#19
#19
The biggest issue to me was the handling after kiffin left. I don't think he was really a bad hire, and he definitely excited the fan base (long term there probably would've been recruiting issues and our players seemed to have off the field problems constantly). I think he would've done well here, though probably not elite

Issue comes when they hire dooley. If we would've just had an interim coach, and then found somebody worth while, we wouldn't have dug ourselves in this hole. We rushed/panicked/whatever, and it took its toll on the program
 
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#20
#20
P6

Where do we stand to hire a coach as of today?

IMO, and that of about everyone except our own fanbase it seems, we're in a very strong position and if we don't even ATTEMPT to make a strong move now then our leadership is telling the fans it wont ever do so again. If this happens then what is the point for fans to pour financial resources into the program? It's my strong opinion that this will be one of the most important decisions in deciding the future of our program. The wrong move here and you will lose fans to apathy, they will put less money into the program, and AD will risk losing a lot of fans from younger generations that have never gotten to experience great TN football.*

Why the TN job is attractive and we're in good position to make a strong move:

Money Hyams made a lot of incorrect statements about the money situation just to get clicks and posting "$25M" is definitely click bait, if he believes what he wrote then I'd hate to see his financial situation because he doesn't understand money. The total buy-out of Butch and staff will be around $10M. Shoop has no buy-out and everyone's buy-out is off-set by any jobs they may take. If we hire a sitting HC then him and his staff will have a buy-out (lets say $2-$5M). So total UPFRONT costs would be around $12-$15M. It doesn't matter what they make down the line, for one their cost is off-set by what we would have paid Butch for the same period, and nobody gets their salary paid upfront in a lump sum. The same is actually done for the buy-out, we count them as upfront costs here but in reality they are paid over incrementally over time.

Further, TN is not poor. Yes, reserves aren't where we want them. No.2 in the COUNTRY in revenues we obviously have one of the strongest support bases in the country. Revenues are tied to merchandise sales with Nike, winning = more sales. Big bowl games give bonuses ($2M for Sugar Bowl for example). We could do a full financial analysis to examine why winning big in football helps both the AD and academic side of the University but to sum it up, it has been proven at numerous schools, spending money on a top coach that wins big is a financial boon for the school. TN has gotten greedy because the fans have supported the University just as much but without the success. This business model can't last forever and we are starting to see those cracks. If TN doesn't commit financially then the fanbase will stop doing the same.

Weak east: as discussed previously, a good coach is smart enough to put himself in a good situation. Think long and hard, has the East ever been so ripe for domination? The SEC is the best conference with the most money, and the historically weak east provides a clear path for a great coach to dominate and reap all the rewards that will come from playing in SECCG's and premier bowls (money, recruiting, prestige, etc)

Talented roster: Strong balked because of our roster, that won't happen this time. Butch has done a good job of getting talent on campus and has a strong class lined-up. There will be attrition with a change both in the incoming class and on the current roster but a great coach should have no issues holding it together. With a projected 14-15 starters returning, we will have talent for a good coach to challenge for the east on day one.

-Recruiting: The life blood of any program. In-state talent gets stronger by the year. With moderate success Butch has proven TN, like it always has, can still recruit with the best in the country. Win big and TN can pull to 5 and 10 classes, been proven time and again.
*
Brand: Butch, again, has done a good job os re-establishing the brand of TN. It will never go away, we are one of the strongest, most recognizable brands in college football. That hasn't changed but due to increased recent success by Butch, the perception of TN football is that we are close to being good. Everyone sees we've had the opportunity to be the best team in the east the past 3 seasons, we're on the cusp and if the fans and media see that then a good coach does too. It's an opportunity.
 
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#21
#21
The biggest issue to me was the handling after kiffin left. I don't think he was really a bad hire, and he definitely excited the fan base (long term there probably would've been recruiting issues and our players seemed to have off the field problems constantly). I think he would've done well here, though probably not elite

Issue comes when they hire dooley. If we would've just had an interim coach, and then found somebody worth while, we wouldn't have dug ourselves in this hole. We rushed/panicked/whatever, and it took its toll on the program

Couldn't agree more, complete and utter incompetence. We've removed Hamilton from the equation but sadly the booster that green lighted that whole fiasco is still around which is the main concern in our ability to actually get a big hire here.
 
#22
#22
Since we seem to be headed in the direction of as coaching change I thought it'd be good to clear-up a few misconceptions about TN, the hires we've made, and what reality we are facing with hiring a new coach in a multi-post overview.

Flame away.

"TN always go after the mediocre coach"

We have done this in the past but this not consistent in our history. Timing, complete incompetence, and circumstances have got us where we are today. Here is the breakdown of the why and circumstances surrounding our last 5 coaching hires and looking forward:

1. Majors
2. Fulmer
3. Kiffin
4. Dooley
5. Butch
6. Why TN is in a strong position
7. What could go wrong

kiffin, dooley, and butch ain't in the same league as Majors and Fulmer! C'mon man! :no: :rofl:
 
#23
#23
P7

What could go wrong with the coaching hire:

Poor leadership, simple as that. Maybe we strike-out on the big-fish like Kelly, Gruden (GRUMORS)), etc but the leadership has to show it is willing to at least attempt to make a strong move for a coach. Probably would be good PR just to leak negotiations with a Kelly, Gruden, Patterson, etc. If their no.1 targets are mid-major guys or coordinators, even if they may be successful it will not sIt well with this fanbase. Our situation is different than say Florida or LSU during their recent hires. Those schools have not been through a decade of darkness like TN, both have had recent success. A bad hire and they can recover, we've been through 3 hires that haven't worked out. I hate to say it but the best comparison is Alabama. They went through a down period from 93- 07. They knew they HAD to get it together and make a strong move. Price and Rich Rod didn't workout so they just said enough and hired a cold blooded assassin. Nobody is saying it's that easy, Saban is the best college HC ever most likely, but TN needs to say "ENOUGH" and go swing for the fences. They may not hit the homerun but if they don't even try then this program is in major trouble.

That's my take on things regarding coaching hires. I'd be curious to hear what people think.
 
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#25
#25
To keep with the theme here.....so we fire Butch today....are there really any elite coaches available to hire? Honest question, honest concern. Before you jump you need a plan. Just something to ponder

Oh gheez, not this again.
 

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