Kahlil Mckenzie And Shy Tuttle

[tennfanatic]

I think when you look at this season these guys are the x factor of whether of or not we have a good year. Shy has proven to be the real deal but he stays hurt, Kahlil has been a bust thus far. I really believe we have one of the best defensive lines in our conference, and with Hoke being their coach we'll see a big improvement.

 

[OrangeByBirth]

Both will be key to any success or failure. Neither can completely bust out and find happy fans at the end of the year.

 

[Remy]

I think when you look at this season these guys are the x factor of whether of or not we have a good year. Shy has proven to be the real deal but he stays hurt, Kahlil has been a bust thus far. I really believe we have one of the best defensive lines in our conference, and with Hoke being their coach we'll see a big improvement.

I refuse to accept your premise KMac has been/is a bust. You must not watch his individual performance very often. Tuttle was clipped causing his first injury, likely without it, there would not have been second one. I refuse to accept ANY suggestion he's injury prone as a300 lb SEC OL hitting a leg from behind unexpectedly would cause almost any human being severe injury.

 

[gunner]

I think when you look at this season these guys are the x factor of whether of or not we have a good year. Shy has proven to be the real deal but he stays hurt, Kahlil has been a bust thus far. I really believe we have one of the best defensive lines in our conference, and with Hoke being their coach we'll see a big improvement.

UT needs both of these guys to stay healthy and have a great year while playing big in the biggest games. But, the QB position is the most important position to replace the production of Dobbs from last season. UT must find a suitable replacement for Dobbs to compete in the SEC East otherwise it won't matter what happens at DT.

 

[KBVol]

I refuse to accept your premise KMac has been/is a bust. You must not watch his individual performance very often. Tuttle was clipped causing his first injury, likely without it, there would not have been second one. I refuse to accept ANY suggestion he's injury prone as a300 lb SEC OL hitting a leg from behind unexpectedly would cause almost any human being severe injury.

Kahlil has very much been a bust to this point. As a 5 star, top 1-6 player (depending on which recruiting site you believe), he has to do more than perform as a second string, backup DT who eats up some blocks. Compare him to the other young, top ranked 5 star DTs and he falls well short of they level they've performed at, that's just the truth. At a minimum, he's got to be good enough to start over a handful of good/solid/average DTs and he wasn't able to do that even in year two. There's still time obviously for him to turn it around and have a strong finish to his career here, but this far he's been not nearly what we expected him to be. Again, just the truth.

 

[AllVol11717]

You gotta remember that DT is not a very sexy position(especially KMs role). Khalil isn't going to be a high solo tackle or sack total kind of guy. The name of the game for him is disruption - pushing interior lineman around so as to close running gaps, eliminating room for QBs to step up in the pocket, etc. He's done well in that respect when on the field, but right now the only considerable knock on him is that he spends too many series on the sideline.

Tuttle is honestly the best overall DT we've had in a while. It's tough to watch him have to fight through leg injuries, but when healthy he does what Khalil does but with an added ability to more quickly get off of blocks and make plays (something rare for DTs and something that will get him drafted early if he can string a pair of healthy seasons together).

Equally important and overlooked in the OP is Kendall Vickers. He's started 25 games in a row at DT and his consistency is very important to this D-Line. He's the least gifted of the three athletically, but he rarely messes up. He's the kind of selfless player that helps to open up plays for others on the line.

 

[TAF]

You gotta remember that DT is not a very sexy position(especially KMs role).

Vince Wilfork says "Hey Y'All!"

 

[fade route]

Tuttle will be ineffective until at least Oct. When your coach is encouraged that you're at least running in mid July shows me he will not be 100% for quite a while.

 

[sjt18]

The value of these two guys is better measured by the yardage given up when they're not in there than the number of tackles they make. I don't think KM is a bust. He's had his own injury issues just when it seemed he was coming into his own.

I think their health and the performance of the DT's and D depends on rotation. They have to have 4 to 6 guys who can take reps without a huge drop off. You just can't expect to play guys like that for that many snaps over a season and expect them to stay healthy. At that extreme, it doesn't matter how good their conditioning is.

 

[livefaith]

OP is a bust thus far IMO.

 

[sjt18]

Tuttle will be ineffective until at least Oct. When your coach is encouraged that you're at least running in mid July shows me he will not be 100% for quite a while.

Kind of depends on the program they've had him on. Running seemed to mean running for conditioning and not for therapy/trial. He also mentioned change of direction drills. In conjunction with running for conditioning, that is promising.

Just my interpretation of what Jones said... could be wrong.

 

[KBVol]

You gotta remember that DT is not a very sexy position(especially KMs role). Khalil isn't going to be a high solo tackle or sack total kind of guy. The name of the game for him is disruption - pushing interior lineman around so as to close running gaps, eliminating room for QBs to step up in the pocket, etc. He's done well in that respect when on the field, but right now the only considerable knock on him is that he spends too many series on the sideline.

Tuttle is honestly the best overall DT we've had in a while. It's tough to watch him have to fight through leg injuries, but when healthy he does what Khalil does but with an added ability to more quickly get off of blocks and make plays (something rare for DTs and something that will get him drafted early if he can string a pair of healthy seasons together).

Equally important and overlooked in the OP is Kendall Vickers. He's started 25 games in a row at DT and his consistency is very important to this D-Line. He's the least gifted of the three athletically, but he rarely messes up. He's the kind of selfless player that helps to open up plays for others on the line.

Understand the role of a DT. Question.....has KMac been disruptive? Has he penetrated into the backfield? Has he closed running lanes? How many times has he pushed the pocket up the middle and forced the qb out of the pocket?

I thought he played fairly well at times as a freshman, especially vs the run. Otherwise, there's not much to point to to say that he's anything other than a backup DT. And as I said in an earlier post, if you're touted as the #1 or #2 DT or overall player in the country, you've gotta come in being a disruptive, playmaking DT that impacts the game. He's not been anything close to that, when other young, highly rated DTs have been.

For example, Ed Oliver of Houston.....he was 247's #6 overall player and the #3 DT in the country coming out of Highschool. Last year, as a true freshman, he had 65 tackles, 22 for loss, and 5 sacks.

Another one is former #5 star and top 1 or 2 DT Trenton Thompson of Georgia. Came out of Highschool at the same time as KMac....in 2 seasons has 89 tackles, 12 for loss and 5.5 sacks.....compared to KMac's 36, 1.5 and 1.0.

And I can assure you that in addition to all the TFLs and sacks and tackles, that both Oliver and Thompson are playing their DT techniques, taking on blocks and double teams, plugging gaps, etc, etc....just like KMac.

Agree with your assessments of both Tuttle and Vickers. Tuttle is the best DT we've in awhile, just has to get and stay healthy and Vickers is solid

 

[KBVol]

The value of these two guys is better measured by the yardage given up when they're not in there than the number of tackles they make. I don't think KM is a bust. He's had his own injury issues just when it seemed he was coming into his own.

I think their health and the performance of the DT's and D depends on rotation. They have to have 4 to 6 guys who can take reps without a huge drop off. You just can't expect to play guys like that for that many snaps over a season and expect them to stay healthy. At that extreme, it doesn't matter how good their conditioning is.

If you're supposed to be the #1 or #2 DT in the country, possibly even the #1 overall player in the country (per Scout), you're expected to come in and have immediate impact. KMac, in two seasons, couldn't crack the starting lineup ahead of two pretty average/solid DTs. He's played the run well at times, but has done virtually nothing in two years in terms of getting penetration and disrupting offenses. He's at times been good and has eaten up blocks, but if you're as talented and highly rated as KMac, you've got to do much, much more. He's gotta be a force that offenses game plan for imo. Obviously, no team game plans for a backup DT who rarely to never gets penetration into the opposing team's offensive backfield.

The hope for me regarding KMac is that he still has two years left here and there's plenty of time for him to make his mark, play at a high level here and justify the accolades and expectations he had coming in as a freshman. I'm reminded that Reggie White had a fairly lackluster career going at Tennessee until about halfway through his junior season here when he began to play at an elite level, and wound up being the best defensive player in the country as a senior. Hopefully KMac will follow a similar track as Reggie.

 

[Dobbs 4 Heisman]

Understand the role of a DT. Question.....has KMac been disruptive? Has he penetrated into the backfield? Has he closed running lanes? How many times has he pushed the pocket up the middle and forced the qb out of the pocket?

I thought he played fairly well at times as a freshman, especially vs the run. Otherwise, there's not much to point to to say that he's anything other than a backup DT. And as I said in an earlier post, if you're touted as the #1 or #2 DT or overall player in the country, you've gotta come in being a disruptive, playmaking DT that impacts the game. He's not been anything close to that, when other young, highly rated DTs have been.

For example, Ed Oliver of Houston.....he was 247's #6 overall player and the #3 DT in the country coming out of Highschool. Last year, as a true freshman, he had 65 tackles, 22 for loss, and 5 sacks.

Another one is former #5 star and top 1 or 2 DT Trenton Thompson of Georgia. Came out of Highschool at the same time as KMac....in 2 seasons has 89 tackles, 12 for loss and 5.5 sacks.....compared to KMac's 36, 1.5 and 1.0.

And I can assure you that in addition to all the TFLs and sacks and tackles, that both Oliver and Thompson are playing their DT techniques, taking on blocks and double teams, plugging gaps, etc, etc....just like KMac.

Agree with your assessments of both Tuttle and Vickers. Tuttle is the best DT we've in awhile and Vickers is solid

:lolabove: I guess no one taught you the difference between a 1-technique DT and a 3-technique DT.

Kahlil has been a bust. I agree with you on that. However, trying to compare the stats of a 1-technique to a 3-technique is laughable. Two completely different responsibilities. Honestly, not being able to tell the difference between a 3-technique and a 1-technique is the equivalent of not knowing the difference between a FS and a SS. Just because a free safety gets more INTs than Kam Chancellor doesn't make that guy a better safety. Similarly, the fact a 3-technique that rushes the passer gets more sacks or TFLs than a 1-technique that takes on double teams doesn't necessarily make that 3-technique the better player.

 

[Orange_Vol1321]

If you're supposed to be the #1 or #2 DT in the country, possibly even the #1 overall player in the country (per Scout), you're expected to come in and have immediate impact. KMac, in two seasons, couldn't crack the starting lineup ahead of two pretty average/solid DTs. He's played the run well at times, but has done virtually nothing in two years in terms of getting penetration and disrupting offenses. He's at times been good and has eaten up blocks, but if you're as talented and highly rated as KMac, you've got to do much, much more. He's gotta be a force that offenses game plan for imo. Obviously, no team game plans for a backup DT who rarely to never gets penetration into the opposing team's offensive backfield.

The hope for me regarding KMac is that he still has two years left here and there's plenty of time for him to make his mark, play at a high level here and justify the accolades and expectations he had coming in as a freshman. I'm reminded that Reggie White had a fairly lackluster career going at Tennessee until about halfway through his junior season here when he began to play at an elite level, and wound up being the best defensive player in the country as a senior. Hopefully KMac will follow a similar track as Reggie.

As a freshman adjusting can be tough. Then as a sophmore you have a new DC changing up schemes and he has gotten double teamed plenty both years before his injury last year.

I agree KB, it's time for him to turn it up and be a huge force in year 3. Hopefully Hoke has him dialed in.

 

[HalfullVol]

Tuttle will be ineffective until at least Oct. When your coach is encouraged that you're at least running in mid July shows me he will not be 100% for quite a while.[/QUOTE]

This.

REDSHIRT - if at all possible.

 

[AllVol11717]

Understand the role of a DT. Question.....has KMac been disruptive? Has he penetrated into the backfield? Has he closed running lanes? How many times has he pushed the pocket up the middle and forced the qb out of the pocket?

I thought he played fairly well at times as a freshman, especially vs the run. Otherwise, there's not much to point to to say that he's anything other than a backup DT. And as I said in an earlier post, if you're touted as the #1 or #2 DT or overall player in the country, you've gotta come in being a disruptive, playmaking DT that impacts the game. He's not been anything close to that, when other young, highly rated DTs have been.

For example, Ed Oliver of Houston.....he was 247's #6 overall player and the #3 DT in the country coming out of Highschool. Last year, as a true freshman, he had 65 tackles, 22 for loss, and 5 sacks.

Another one is former #5 star and top 1 or 2 DT Trenton Thompson of Georgia. Came out of Highschool at the same time as KMac....in 2 seasons has 89 tackles, 12 for loss and 5.5 sacks.....compared to KMac's 36, 1.5 and 1.0.

And I can assure you that in addition to all the TFLs and sacks and tackles, that both Oliver and Thompson are playing their DT techniques, taking on blocks and double teams, plugging gaps, etc, etc....just like KMac.

Agree with your assessments of both Tuttle and Vickers. Tuttle is the best DT we've in awhile, just has to get and stay healthy and Vickers is solid

First off let me preface that I believe KMac was rated too high as a recruit. He dominated one-on-one drills in camps which, IMO, are just about useless for measuring DTs as the middle of the LOS is never that clear or clean. So I think he entered with higher expectations than he really deserved. I think his ranking was unfair in the sense that it didn't account for how much of a project he actually was and still is.

But yes I have seen Khalil make plays. The only problem is they come few and far in between. When he plays to his potential, he looks and performs the part. However, at his size he hasn't learned how to condition himself to make an impact play in and play out, which is arguably the most important aspect of being a heavy DT. So I absolutely understand the view of him being a bust from his rankings, although I don't entirely agree, but he was continuing to make more of an impact as the season went on before his injury. Just look at how little we could do to stop the run against what was supposed to be the weaker part of our schedule without him. UK, Mizzou, USC, and Vandy all handled our D-line (even with Barnett).

As for Oliver and Thompson both are exceptional players. Oliver is more of a tweener at 290lbs so I would normally expect players like him to more easily get off of blocks (reminds me a lot of Malik Jackson in both size and play style).Thompson, however, is what Khalil can be when he's at his best. I think Thompson has benefited from having a better supporting cast (mainly a much better secondary) but he's extremely consistent for a player over 300lbs.

So, ultimately, I don't think Khalil is a bust. He certainly can be, but a combination of overly lofty expectations and a very thin depth chart at DT have forced him into the spotlight before he's ready. I expect improvement from him this year and for him to be playing like a 2nd/3rd round pick by the time he's a senior.

 

[savannahfan]

Tut -- Some on here have thought he may red shirt.
K-Mac --- If he gains the strength to match his body, he will excel. He has not looked physically strong to me. Makes him sluggish and unable to hold his ground or have a dominate push. So, in steps the S&C program that is in new hands.

The things I am looking at above make a great D-line a little less likely. Hope you are right and I am wrong. GO VOLS

 

[MikeVol44]

I'm reminded that Reggie White had a fairly lackluster career going at Tennessee until about halfway through his junior season here when he began to play at an elite level, and wound up being the best defensive player in the country as a senior. Hopefully KMac will follow a similar track as Reggie.

I agree with this....Reggie's last two years made his legend at UT....

Kmac's play, so far, is summed up to me in this play against UGA last year...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1mSZL6wSIc

Check the 30:49-31:00 min. portion of the tape. KMac is the right DT as you're looking down at the play.

We're not running a stunt...his first step is sideways...and not forward...Why? Is this the technique he was being taught? I don't know.

What I do know is that KMac had a HUGE opportunity to blow up a play by penetrating and stopping that play IF--IF--IF his mentality was to ATTACK....Instead--he sat back, stood up, and got blocked out of the play.

If he had been coached to attack and penetrate--his first steps would've been forward while he kept his body low and his pads low to maintain his leverage. And he could've continued on and hit the RB before being blocked by the OT.

But I think it was the opposite...I think that he had been coached NOT to penetrate and sit down on the LOS and attempt to clog the hole. Nevertheless--he did that poorly...

I hope that HOKE's coaching is more in line with Shoop's philosophy to attack, penetrate, and disrupt.

GO VOLS!

 

[Brave Volunteer]

Tuttle will be ineffective until at least Oct. When your coach is encouraged that you're at least running in mid July shows me he will not be 100% for quite a while.

I still say he redshirts.

 

[AllVol11717]

I still say he redshirts.

If he redshirts, we'll need Alexis Johnson and Picou to step up big time this year. DT is not our deepest position.

 

[TNnative]

I refuse to accept your premise KMac has been/is a bust. You must not watch his individual performance very often. Tuttle was clipped causing his first injury, likely without it, there would not have been second one. I refuse to accept ANY suggestion he's injury prone as a300 lb SEC OL hitting a leg from behind unexpectedly would cause almost any human being severe injury.

Agreed. Shy's first injury was a clear cheap shot, and I am not sure him going down against South Carolina wasn't the same.

And the only reason anyone would suggest Kahlil is a bust is because they expected him to walk on water. He came in overweight his first year, and was one of the most notable guys who couldn't finish last season because the S&C program was running shorthanded.

But MacKenzie and Tuttle are only two pieces of the puzzle. Bennett and Crosby coming in means we have two more quality DTs to put into a rotation. Everybody needs to stop laying all their expectations on two guys, and start wanting fresh guys on the field.

 

[VOLED]

great years. They have either been out of shape or injured their entire careers. This D is going to surprise people this year.

 

[TNnative]

Tuttle will be ineffective until at least Oct. When your coach is encouraged that you're at least running in mid July shows me he will not be 100% for quite a while.[/QUOTE]

This.

REDSHIRT - if at all possible.

How many ligaments did he tear? The rehab reports sound encouraging, but that is for a full recovery, not necessarily a quick one. There have been several occasions where Butch has not announced something he had known for some time. Tuttle taking a red shirt this year seemed a certainty when the injury was first reported, and until they open a PC saying he is cleared to play, he will be wearing it.

 

[Other_Guy]

I'm not ready to call Kalil a bust yet.