Talent Evaluations - Music City Bowl

#1

daj2576

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#1
Tennessee (8-4) will play Nebraska (9-3) in the Music City Bowl. But, what can really be expected?

For those of you who have followed my evaluations since the Dooley era, you know the predictive power of recruiting evaluations. For those of you who haven't, a brief summary is that averaging four years of rivals recruiting produces an approximately 70% prediction rate between any two teams, almost 100% in national championship games (since 2005 only one less talented team has won), and the stability of these predictions is an even better indicator of seasonal predictions. For instance, something like 85% of the teams finish the season within a game of predictions (Ex: UT had a 9-3 seasonal prediction using this metric, and finished 8-4. This is well within normal variation). The real problem this season is that UT was wildly over-valued by many fans and pundits, but that didn't change the reality that talent for UT would orbit within a game of 9-3.

When I tell people that the B1G is the most over-valued conference, I get scoffed at. The reality is that the B1G is the least talented conference of the power5 having the lowest average team rating. The SEC has an average talent somewhere between Oklahoma and Michigan, the B1G has an average talent somewhere between Missouri and Vanderbilt.

Nebraska will enter the game with a talent average of 26.75 and UT with an 11.25. As a threshold matter this evaluation alone gives UT the 70/30 advantage. For comparison, Nebraska would be the 6th most talented team UT will face in 2016. Tennessee will be the 2nd most talented team that Nebraska will face.

But there is more to the evaluation than simply looking at talent, it is about looking at how a team performed in relation to that talent.

UT v. Nebraska.jpg

This chart shows the relative talent that both Tennessee and Nebraska faced in 2016. Both teams under-performed their predictions by 1 game. Tennessee's best win against talent was against an 8.25 UGA team, Nebraska's was a 23.26 Oregon team. UT's worst loss was against a Vanderbilt team at 43.75 whereas Nebraska's came against an Iowa team that is 53.5. In sum, it means that Nebraska has not illustrated an ability to perform well enough to overcome the talent advantage that UT has, but UT has lost to a lessor talented team than Nebraska (beating two more talented teams than Nebraska, and a third [Kentucky] that is virtually identical with Nebraska from a talent standpoint).

The conclusion is that talent favors Tennessee, and that both teams are performing the same way in relation to talent making it even less likely that Nebraska has the horses to overcome a far more talented UT. That said, as with any game the lessor talented team could win (30% isn't insignificant), but Nebraska isn't even as talented as SCAR, and has no indicia of seasonal over-performance in the way that Vanderbilt did. Note also how close Vanderbilt and Wisconsin are in talent.

Finally, for those who want to argue that the B1G is the better conference, I offer you two visualizations. The first is the combination of Nebraska and Tennessee's opponents ranked in relation to aggregate talent. The second is all of the P5 conferences teams ranked in relation to their conference talent and each other. Note that only three of Nebraska's opponents would fall between Alabama and Vanderbilt.

UT v. Nebraska2.png

Conference Comparison.jpg

EDIT: I forgot a point of further comparison. If Nebraska was put into UT's schedule, their predicted outcome would be 7-5. Conversely, if UT was put into Nebraska's schedule, the predicted outcome would be 11-1.
 
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#4
#4
Tennessee (8-4) will play Nebraska (9-3) in the Music City Bowl. But, what can really be expected?

For those of you who have followed my evaluations since the Dooley era, you know the predictive power of recruiting evaluations. For those of you who haven't, a brief summary is that averaging four years of rivals recruiting produces an approximately 70% prediction rate between any two teams, almost 100% in national championship games (since 2005 only one less talented team has won), and the stability of these predictions is an even better indicator of seasonal predictions. For instance, something like 85% of the teams finish the season within a game of predictions (Ex: UT had a 9-3 seasonal prediction using this metric, and finished 8-4. This is well within normal variation). The real problem this season is that UT was wildly over-valued by many fans and pundits, but that didn't change the reality that talent for UT would orbit within a game of 9-3.

When I tell people that the B1G is the most over-valued conference, I get scoffed at. The reality is that the B1G is the least talented conference of the power5 having the lowest average team rating. The SEC has an average talent somewhere between Oklahoma and Michigan, the B1G has an average talent somewhere between Missouri and Vanderbilt.

Nebraska will enter the game with a talent average of 26.75 and UT with an 11.25. As a threshold matter this evaluation alone gives UT the 70/30 advantage. For comparison, Nebraska would be the 6th most talented team UT will face in 2016. Tennessee will be the 2nd most talented team that Nebraska will face.

But there is more to the evaluation than simply looking at talent, it is about looking at how a team performed in relation to that talent.

View attachment 124640

This chart shows the relative talent that both Tennessee and Nebraska faced in 2016. Both teams under-performed their predictions by 1 game. Tennessee's best win against talent was against an 8.25 UGA team, Nebraska's was a 23.26 Oregon team. UT's worst loss was against a Vanderbilt team at 43.75 whereas Nebraska's came against an Iowa team that is 53.5. In sum, it means that Nebraska has not illustrated an ability to perform well enough to overcome the talent advantage that UT has, but UT has lost to a lessor talented team than Nebraska (beating two more talented teams than Nebraska, and a third [Kentucky] that is virtually identical with Nebraska from a talent standpoint).

The conclusion is that talent favors Tennessee, and that both teams are performing the same way in relation to talent making it even less likely that Nebraska has the horses to overcome a far more talented UT. That said, as with any game the lessor talented team could win (30% isn't insignificant), but Nebraska isn't even as talented as SCAR, and has no indicia of seasonal over-performance in the way that Vanderbilt did. Note also how close Vanderbilt and Wisconsin are in talent.

Finally, for those who want to argue that the B1G is the better conference, I offer you two visualizations. The first is the combination of Nebraska and Tennessee's opponents ranked in relation to aggregate talent. The second is all of the P5 conferences teams ranked in relation to their conference talent and each other. Note that only three of Nebraska's opponents would fall between Alabama and Vanderbilt.

View attachment 124641

View attachment 124642
Did you use to work for Billy Bean?
 
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#7
#7
Finn-SCIENCE.gif


Nice work Daj.
 
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#9
#9
(Ex: UT had a 9-3 seasonal prediction using this metric, and finished 8-4. This is well within normal variation). The real problem this season is that UT was wildly over-valued by many fans and pundits, but that didn't change the reality that talent for UT would orbit within a game of 9-3.

I do have a question. What is your definition of "wildly over-valued"?
 
#10
#10
Props daj! You're doing the work. :thumbs: vandy and scar are proof that some times numbers just don't matter. :loco:
 
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#11
#11
I do have a question. What is your definition of "wildly over-valued"?

Look at the final football polls then look at the comparative conference talent chart I attached above. As talent predicts 70% of every match-up, and more in a title game, what B1G team could legitimately compete in the SEC (besides Ohio State)? You could say the same thing about shoving most of those teams in the PAC or the ACC, potentially.

EDIT: I answered the wrong question. Apologies.

What I mean by UT being wildly over-valued was starting the season ranked 9 (should've been about 15ish). Further, the most likely outcome was 2nd in the SEC East with a 9-3 record. Winning the east was an outside possibility, but unlikely. Anyone who believed that UT was going to perform more than a game from 9-3 (any 11 plus win projections, or (less than 7) were equally as unlikely) was wildly over or under-valuing the Vols. As I cautioned back in May, the difficulty with this season was going to be the emotional reaction as fans/pundits adjusted to reality and away from over-inflated (and unfounded) expectations.
 
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#12
#12
Good information O.P. Thanks for sharing.

One major concern is how our decimated D-line will match up with their O-line.
 
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#13
#13
Look at the final football polls then look at the comparative conference talent chart I attached above. As talent predicts 70% of every match-up, and more in a title game, what B1G team could legitimately compete in the SEC (besides Ohio State)? You could say the same thing about shoving most of those teams in the PAC or the ACC, potentially.

Let me rephrase.

You had UT at 9-3 and that a game either way is within normal variation. If UT was 10-2 would that fit "wildly over-valued"?
 
#14
#14
Let me rephrase.

You had UT at 9-3 and that a game either way is within normal variation. If UT was 10-2 would that fit "wildly over-valued"?

I caught my error, and answered it above in the edited comment. Apologies again.

But let me answer it a different way. The chance of UT going 10-2 was the same as 8-4. Both are within normal variation from a 9-3 prediction. The problem is that using the upper limit of normal to judge the actual outcome (the lower limit of normal) distorts perception, and that is magnified if one started with an 11 win prediction. The most likely outcome was 9-3. UT under performed by 1 game. If you thought UT was a 10 win team and then used that to judge the 8 win performance, you began by over-valuing the team slightly, but that means the distance between your perception from reality is twice as far as if you had started from reality (probable 9-3) and then created an expectation, if that makes more sense.
 
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#15
#15
Props daj! You're doing the work. :thumbs: vandy and scar are proof that some times numbers just don't matter. :loco:

They are the exceptions that tend to prove the rule (see also Wisconsin v. LSU, PSU v. OSU). But, sadly, those are the games that people tend to latch on to when refining perceptions.
 
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#16
#16
ok, Rocket Man, we know that's you, so come on out...:)

PS. very nice and thanks!...:salute:

GO VOLS...BEAT HUSKERS!
 
#17
#17
ok, Rocket Man, we know that's you, so come on out...:)

PS. very nice and thanks!...:salute:

GO VOLS...BEAT HUSKERS!

It is lonely out in space...

and I think it's gonna be a long, long time...
till touch down brings me 'round again to find...
I'm not the man they think I am at all...

I'm a Rocket Man!

ROCKET MAN!!!





P.S. Volnation aint the kind of place to raise your kids...
 
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#19
#19
I find Nebraska to be a similar team to UT. Once great, but struggling to become relevant. Shows flashes of talent but loses the games they shouldn't. In most cases I'd say UT has the upper hand but since seeing our run D, I'm not sure.
 
#20
#20
They are the exceptions that tend to prove the rule (see also Wisconsin v. LSU, PSU v. OSU). But, sadly, those are the games that people tend to latch on to when refining perceptions.

I agree that those are the games people latch on to, but I wouldn't use the term "sadly".

UGA, aTm, UT, & UF are all within 3.50 points using your matrix. IMO, those are within the "toss-up" parameters. USC is a bit further out at 20 and Vandy is in the 40's.

It seems you're only looking it as:

Team A has a ranking of 10 and Team B has a ranking of 11 therefore team A should win 70% of the time.
But you seem to hold to the same standard that if Team A havs a ranking of 10 and Team B has a ranking of 40 therefore Team A should win 70% of the time.

I would think the further away each team is on the ranking scale would increase the odds the higher ranked team wins vs when there comparably close...No?
 
#21
#21
I caught my error, and answered it above in the edited comment. Apologies.

No need to apologize. It happens.

I could see wildly with 12-0 for sure and even 11-1 to a lesser degree.

I think most saw 10-2 and that winning the east, which it would have. I don't get into preseason rankings too much.

Excluding Bama (for obvious reasons)

The season essential fell this way.

W - UGA at +3.5
W - UF at - 1

L - A&M at +0.75
L - USC at - 8.75
L - Vandy at - 32.5
 
#22
#22
I agree that those are the games people latch on to, but I wouldn't use the term "sadly".

UGA, aTm, UT, & UF are all within 3.50 points using your matrix. IMO, those are within the "toss-up" parameters. USC is a bit further out at 20 and Vandy is in the 40's.

It seems you're only looking it as:

Team A has a ranking of 10 and Team B has a ranking of 11 therefore team A should win 70% of the time.
But you seem to hold to the same standard that if Team A havs a ranking of 10 and Team B has a ranking of 40 therefore Team A should win 70% of the time.

I would think the further away each team is on the ranking scale would increase the odds the higher ranked team wins vs when there comparably close...No?

I believe we've had this conversation before, even if we hadn't, I will gladly look at your research that supports your conclusions.
 
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#23
#23
Big 10 was a better conference this year (and perhaps for a few more years) because of coaching. I think everybody would agree that SEC teams still get the best players.
 
#24
#24
No need to apologize. It happens.

I could see wildly with 12-0 for sure and even 11-1 to a lesser degree.

I think most saw 10-2 and that winning the east, which it would have. I don't get into preseason rankings too much.

Excluding Bama (for obvious reasons)

The season essential fell this way.

W - UGA at +3.5
W - UF at - 1

L - A&M at +0.75
L - USC at - 8.75
L - Vandy at - 32.5

I don't see any obvious reason to exclude Bama.

But yes, that's what those charts tend to show. I'm not sure what conclusion you are drawing from it, if any.

What I have found is that within a couple of points, the home team should be favored, but not that margins of victory shrink or expand relative to talent differential (at least not in a way that can be sussed out with this evaluation alone).

Vandy is a bad loss, but they also over-performed significantly outside of normal distributions. It'sroughly as bad from a talent stand point as LSU v. Wisconsin, or OSU vs. PSU.
 
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#25
#25
Big 10 was a better conference this year (and perhaps for a few more years) because of coaching. I think everybody would agree that SEC teams still get the best players.

Are you saying that you believe the B1G tends to perform significantly above expectations that are closely tied to talent? I would suggest not. And, that's a clear way to evaluate coach effect.

How about this, give me a couple of B1G teams that you believe are evidence of great coaching this season, and I will post their results.
 
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