Can Butch Beat the Best of the Best?

#1
VFL-82-JP

VFL-82-JP

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#1
The question has come up a couple of times in the past few months about whether Butch Jones can call a good game on Saturday, whether he can beat the best of the best opposing coaches. I've mentioned more than once that I think his record at CMU and Cincy, as well as glimmers here at Tennessee so far, have shown that he is just as strong a 'chess' coach as he is on the recruiting trail.

But I never really dug down to find out exactly who he played during those six years as head coach before he got to Knoxville. This morning, I did. Here's what I found:

  • Oct 07 - CMU beat Ball State, coached by Brady Hoke
  • Sep 08 - CMU beat Ohio, coached by Frank Solich (beat him again in the 2009 MAC CG)
  • Sep 08 - CMU beat Buffalo, coached by Turner Gill (beat him again in 2009)
  • Sep 09 - CMU beat Michigan State, coached by Mark Dantonio
  • Oct 10 - Cincy beat Louisville, coached by Charlie Strong (beat him again in 2011)
  • Nov 10 - Cincy beat Rutgers, coached by Greg Schiano
  • Sep 11 - Cincy beat NC State, coached by Tom O'Brien
  • Oct 11 - Cincy beat South Florida, coached by Skip Holtz (beat him again in 2012)
  • Dec 11 - Cincy beat Vanderbilt, coached by James Franklin
  • Sep 12 - Cincy beat Virginia Tech, coached by Frank Beamer
  • Dec 12 - Cincy beat Duke, coached by David Cutcliffe

Granted, Butch hasn't yet beaten Nick Saban or Urban Meyer, Mark Richt or Les Miles. He hasn't yet dominated most of the absolute best of the best college football coaches. But he has beaten one of them: Steve Spurrier. And he's done it twice in a row. The first time with equal or less talent. And he has certainly proven he can win chess matches against the second-highest tier, the Frank Beamers and David Cutcliffes and Tom O'Briens and Greg Schianos and Mark Dantonios.

Yes, Butch still has to prove it on the field, against Saban. Against Richt. And hopefully soon, against Meyer. And I think he's gonna do fine. In fact, I think 2015 is the year where he adds notches to his belt for one or two of those other top-tier coaches. Go Vols!



NOTES:

1. Did you pick up on the amusing irony concerning Charlie Strong? Some in VN wanted Strong instead of Jones as our new head coach, thinking Strong was the flashier hire with a bigger upside...wonder if they knew that Butch was regularly whooping Charlie's butt back then?
2. Talent differentials certainly played a role in these victories ... but was Butch playing with the more talented, or the less talented team? Not an easy question to answer. I'm gonna guess it's roughly a wash...he probably had more talent about half the time, and less the other half. Bottom line is, he kept winning, and against good coaches.
 
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#2
#2
I think you meant to say, can this team beat the best of the best? Although Coaches and QB get too much credit for the win and loss, this is a team sport. Can this team beat the best of the best? yes, they have the talent, both young and experience, strength and speed, fast and strong........I believe Team 119 can beat everyone on the schedule, as long as this team executes the plays....UT wins.
 
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#7
#7
FlyFishnVol said:
I think you meant to say, can this team beat the best of the best? ... this is a team sport.
Click to expand...

Yes, of course it is. No, I said what I meant to say. You are apparently missing the context of this ongoing conversation. It goes like this:

"Sure, Butch has proven that he is a world-class recruiter, but does he have the chess master skills to win on Saturdays, when he's facing another team with top-grade talent just like his, and the opposing coach is one of the best in the game? That's what it takes to win in the SEC, and Butch hasn't proven that yet."

So that's what I'm responding to, is that question. And so I am specifically focusing on Butch Jones' personal skill sets.

Not forgetting the rest of the coaching staff or the players on the team, not at all. Just isolating one aspect.

That's the context. Get it?
 
#8
#8
VFL-82-JP said:
The question has come up a couple of times in the past few months about whether Butch Jones can call a good game on Saturday, whether he can beat the best of the best opposing coaches. I've mentioned more than once that I think his record at CMU and Cincy, as well as glimmers here at Tennessee so far, have shown that he is just as strong a 'chess' coach as he is on the recruiting trail.

But I never really dug down to find out exactly who he played during those six years as head coach before he got to Knoxville. This morning, I did. Here's what I found:

  • Oct 07 - CMU beat Ball State, coached by Brady Hoke
  • Sep 08 - CMU beat Ohio, coached by Frank Solich (beat him again in the 2009 MAC CG)
  • Sep 08 - CMU beat Buffalo, coached by Turner Gill (beat him again in 2009)
  • Sep 09 - CMU beat Michigan State, coached by Mark Dantonio
  • Oct 10 - Cincy beat Louisville, coached by Charlie Strong (beat him again in 2011)
  • Nov 10 - Cincy beat Rutgers, coached by Greg Schiano
  • Sep 11 - Cincy beat NC State, coached by Tom O'Brien
  • Oct 11 - Cincy beat South Florida, coached by Skip Holtz (beat him again in 2012)
  • Dec 11 - Cincy beat Vanderbilt, coached by James Franklin
  • Sep 12 - Cincy beat Virginia Tech, coached by Frank Beamer
  • Dec 12 - Cincy beat Duke, coached by David Cutcliffe

Granted, Butch hasn't yet beaten Nick Saban or Urban Meyer, Mark Richt or Les Miles. He hasn't yet dominated most of the absolute best of the best college football coaches. But he has beaten one of them: Steve Spurrier. And he's done it twice in a row. The first time with equal or less talent. And he has certainly proven he can win chess matches against the second-highest tier, the Frank Beamers and David Cutcliffes and Tom O'Briens and Greg Schianos and Mark Dantonios.

Yes, Butch still has to prove it on the field, against Saban. Against Richt. And hopefully soon, against Meyer. And I think he's gonna do fine. In fact, I think 2015 is the year where he adds notches to his belt for one or two of those other top-tier coaches. Go Vols!



NOTES:

1. Did you pick up on the amusing irony concerning Charlie Strong? Some in VN wanted Strong instead of Jones as our new head coach, thinking Strong was the flashier hire with a bigger upside...wonder if they knew that Butch was regularly whooping Charlie's butt back then?
2. Talent differentials certainly played a role in these victories ... but was Butch playing with the more talented, or the less talented team? Not an easy question to answer. I'm gonna guess it's roughly a wash...he probably had more talent about half the time, and less the other half. Bottom line is, he kept winning, and against good coaches.
Click to expand...

This is a very good post, but you need to delete the Brady Hoke part.
 
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#9
#9
Well he beat a coach, that has won a national championship, whose team ended the year ranked in the top 5. So I think that question has already been answered.
 
#12
#12
FlyFishnVol said:
I think you meant to say, can this team beat the best of the best? Although Coaches and QB get too much credit for the win and loss, this is a team sport. Can this team beat the best of the best? yes, they have the talent, both young and experience, strength and speed, fast and strong........I believe Team 119 can beat everyone on the schedule, as long as this team executes the plays....UT wins.
Click to expand...

It all comes down to coaching at some point. Sure, we will beat the cupcakes on talent alone. But when we play teams with equal or better talent than us, it will take better coaching on our side to win, period. There's only 1-2 teams that top to bottom will be more talented than us this year. Bama is the only for sure one. UGA and OU have equal or slightly better talent. A mediocre to below average coaching performance in those three games will result in a definite loss. That really could be said for a few other games as well.


To answer the question though, it's still up in the air. I don't look at his past performance much because it wasn't in the best conference. He's beaten Spurrier twice so far, but I want to see what he can do against UGA, UF, and Bama. When it gets down to it, those are the games that if he doesn't start winning soon he won't be around long term. The talent level is starting to level out and it's time to start winning.
 
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#13
#13
Butch was a year away from blowing up as a hot coaching commodity. Another 10+ win season at Cincinnati and he would have had his pick of jobs...and that was based solely on his coaching ability. He was recruiting well at Cincy, but nothing earth shattering at the time that would suggest he would kill it like he's doing here.

We're lucky that we landed him when we did.
 
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#16
#16
bamawriter said:
In what world do Hoke, O'Brien, and Gill make a "best of the best" list?

Someone's grading on a heck of a curve...
Click to expand...

Exactly. The question can't be answered in the affirmative until he starts beating the top coaches in this league. Fair or not, it's how it is I don't care what he did in the past, I want to see him win in this leauge, and that's all that matters.
 
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#17
#17
bamawriter said:
In what world do Hoke, O'Brien, and Gill make a "best of the best" list?

Someone's grading on a heck of a curve...
Click to expand...

Caliber of coaches that Nick Saban could beat at Michigan State. Luckily for you LSU's previous hires were utter garbage, so he could develop his method enough at Baton Rouge. Otherwise you're probably still on our message board talking about how Kevin Steele just needs a few more recruiting classes. :wink2:
 
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#19
#19
When all sides of the equation are equal it boils down to the Will to win, wanting to isn't enough. Winning teams impose their WILL on their opponents. :yes:
 
#20
#20
bamawriter said:
In what world do Hoke, O'Brien, and Gill make a "best of the best" list?

Someone's grading on a heck of a curve...
Click to expand...

They aren't touted as being among the best of the best, that was pretty clear in the OP. I know you're from 'Bama, but you should try to re-read it. Good luck! :)
 
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#21
#21
volfanhill said:
Well he beat a coach, that has won a national championship, whose team ended the year ranked in the top 5. So I think that question has already been answered.
Click to expand...

In the context of this post....he also lost, twice, to Will Muschamp who was fired by Florida, twice to Mark Richt, who most on here seem to regard as an awful, underachieving coach who will never win anything of consequence, and James Franklin, who literally had one good offensive player who was allowed to damn near beat our team singlehandedly.

Full disclosure leads me to tell you that I'm one of the guys who questions Butch's abilities to push the right buttons on Saturday. He's been damn near perfect off the field, from recruiting to program promotion/ public relations to fixing team academics/APR. But, imo, he hasn't proven that he can be a top notch gameday coach.
 
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#22
#22
VFL-82-JP said:
They aren't touted as being among the best of the best, that was pretty clear in the OP. I know you're from 'Bama, but you should try to re-read it. Good luck! :)
Click to expand...

Except that it's exactly how it was written. You distinguished them as "best of the best" as opposed to "absolute best of the best". If you are going to critique someone's reading comprehension, try reading before posting.
 
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#23
#23
chatt-townVOL said:
This is a very good post, but you need to delete the Brady Hoke part.
Click to expand...

He was a bad head coach who wasn't ready to coach a big time program like Michigan. Nothing on his resume said he'd be anymore than a .500 coach. You take away Hoke's first year at Michigan, which was Rich Rod's talent, he was 20-18 with two bowl losses. Michigan tanked their program by not allowing Rich Rod to finish the job. In 2010, Michigan had the 8th best total offense in the country, and that was with an OL that was horrible at pass blocking. All Michigan had to do was hire a new DC after 2010 and assess their OL coaching/player situation. If they would have done that, they would be a top 10 program right now.

It takes patience to learn a system like Rich Rod's or Butch Jones'. The reason I even posted this is because UT fans need to look at this situation as a lesson learned. Butch is the guy for the job, but I'm not sure we are good enough to win 10 games or more this year. It's possible, but unlikely IMO with our current schedule. I'm afraid, come 2016, that Butch may be on the hot seat by many of our fan base if he doesn't come out winning 10 games or more this year. Let's not run off the savior of our football program like Michigan did just to watch him go somewhere else and build a power house football team through recruiting and his assistants' coaching abilities aka Stripling, Thig, Jancek, etc.
 
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#24
#24
KBVol said:
Full disclosure leads me to tell you that I'm one of the guys who questions Butch's abilities to push the right buttons on Saturday. He's been damn near perfect off the field, from recruiting to program promotion/ public relations to fixing team academics/APR. But, imo, he hasn't proven that he can be a top notch gameday coach.
Click to expand...

Ha, yeah, KB's one of the folks I've had fun discussing this with over the last few months. In fairness, he makes great points too, this question is far from having a clear answer. And will be until Butch proves it on the field. Go Vols!
 
#25
#25
bamawriter said:
Except that it's exactly how it was written. You distinguished them as "best of the best" as opposed to "absolute best of the best". If you are going to critique someone's reading comprehension, try reading before posting.
Click to expand...

We're completely unfair to you...maybe you should teach us a lesson and go away. :)
 
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