Program Building vs Winning Programs

#1

Dougie_D

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#1
Tennessee isn't a program you build. It's already built. You just need to figure out how to have a winning program.

I don't want to hear a single phrase referring to our program needing to be re-built. Majority of SEC teams are not even in that category. Tennessee just needs to start winning to save these coaches jobs.

If Tennessee wants to feel like we are re-building than we need to be patient....but we really shouldn't.

Please stop comparing any coaches to a school that needed to be re-built. There's nothing to compare.

Compare CBJ to when

- Urban Meyers took the Florida job.
- Rich Rod took the Michigan job
- Urban Meyers took the Ohio St job
- Kiffin took the USC job
- Saban took the Bama job
- Les Miles took the LSU job
- Jimbo fisher took over the FL St. job
- Bo Pelini took the Nebraska job
- O'Brien took the Penn St. job
- Petrino took the Arkansas job

Butch Jones and Bret Bielema are probably the most comparable coaches.

Both in their second years.

Both are at an SEC Powerhouse.

So far, they both have extremely similar overall records in the SEC (7-13) and (8-12)

It will be interesting which coach ends up with the better record this year. They might be BOTH on the hot seat next year.
 
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#2
#2
The rules of the board do not allow me to call you names so I won't. However, I will say that your logic is flawed. I also don't understand the need to start threads like these, other than to prove your typing skills.
 
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#3
#3
Okay, let's compare Butch to James Franklin taking the Vanderbilt job or Hugh Freeze taking the Ole Miss job. Both inherited programs with poorer W/L records and with less 4 star rated recruits. Where were they in year 2?
 
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#4
#4
Okay, let's compare Butch to James Franklin taking the Vanderbilt job or Hugh Freeze taking the Ole Miss job. Both inherited programs with poorer W/L records and with less 4 star rated recruits. Where were they in year 2?

Friend, I don't know your level of education but I will assume it is such that you should have learned better critical thinking skills. Too bad.
 
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#5
#5
You're right. Butch should just get a bunch of senior students to walk-on. Boom. Youth excuse debunked.
 
#7
#7
Okay, let's compare Butch to James Franklin taking the Vanderbilt job or Hugh Freeze taking the Ole Miss job. Both inherited programs with poorer W/L records and with less 4 star rated recruits. Where were they in year 2?

Not basing this off W/L records and recruits.

I'm talking about programs that have always been in the national spotlight for years.

Tennessee will always be perceived as the better school, better program than Vanderbilt and Ole Miss....which we are traditionally.
 
#8
#8
Okay, let's compare Butch to James Franklin taking the Vanderbilt job or Hugh Freeze taking the Ole Miss job. Both inherited programs with poorer W/L records and with less 4 star rated recruits. Where were they in year 2?

What were their strength of schedules in year 2? I know, irrelevant for those that don't like Jones, but might play a factor for others.
 
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#9
#9
And yet you can only counter my arguments with insults...

I suppose, but that was really not my intention. It is an observation of your simplistic logic that refuses to look at, as others have mentioned, strength of schedule, etc.
 
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#10
#10
You can't magically have juniors and seniors that have experience. We have 4 seniors in our 2 deep on offense and defense. You can't honestly tell me that you expect freshman, who are 17/ 18 years old, to compete mentally and physically with juniors and seniors, who are 21/22 years old.

This would be like giving a calculus test to a freshman and a senior in high school. All the while expecting the freshman to do better than the senior. They both know the basic math behind it, but it is a whole different level of math that takes time to learn. Sure there are some smart freshman that might out perform a couple of seniors, but that is the exception, not the rule.
 
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#11
#11
Okay, let's compare Butch to James Franklin taking the Vanderbilt job or Hugh Freeze taking the Ole Miss job. Both inherited programs with poorer W/L records and with less 4 star rated recruits. Where were they in year 2?

OK, lets - sometimes coaches and teams benefit from their schedule and other teams being down more than quite a few of you want to admit or at least put a little critical analysis to the situations.....

I think Freeze is a good coach....just don't buy in that he is any better than Jones and a quick look at schedules and wins doesn't support what some are throwing out.

2012 - 3 SEC Wins; AU, Ark and MSU (both AU and Ark were severely down that year)

2013 - 3 SEC Wins; Vandy, Ark and LSU (Vandy was early and close, Ark still down)

Not too good in SEC play first 2 years....1 better than Jones in his first year and this year still needs to play out to make a valid comparison.

Things are looking better this year....so far, but they still have some tough games ahead
 
#12
#12
I'm not comparing rosters of teams. I'm comparing what is considered re-building programs and what are not.

Tennessee is not a re-building program. If you really think we are, then take a look at ECU and let me know who is who.
 
#13
#13
Urban Meyers has a brother that is pretty popular this time of year.
 
#14
#14
I'm not comparing rosters of teams. I'm comparing what is considered re-building programs and what are not.

Tennessee is not a re-building program. If you really think we are, then take a look at ECU and let me know who is who.

Under Fulmer 152-52
Post Fulmer ?

What is your definition of rebuilding a program?
 
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#16
#16
Okay, let's compare Butch to James Franklin taking the Vanderbilt job or Hugh Freeze taking the Ole Miss job. Both inherited programs with poorer W/L records and with less 4 star rated recruits. Where were they in year 2?

Part II - Franklin - another good coach but not convinced he is better than CBJ

2011 - Vandy is 2-6 in SEC play including loss to UT under Dooley; wins were a bad Ole Miss and UK

2012 they go 5-3....improvement beating the bad Auburn team, squeaking by Ole Miss w/ Freeze; Mizzou's first year, UK and our Doolites

2013 admittedly a good year, but most of their wins were against battered teams w/out many key starters, as well as a loss to your boy Freeze's Rebels....nevertheless wins

So, a blanket statement doesn't really pass the sniff test once you peel a few layers back
 
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#17
#17
Experience, Talent and Depth >> Although the 1st 2 are somewhat the same except for Speed of players, then when you have depth = breeds competition = Winning

We have 1/2 of a Team that you can tap (winning) to, all you need to know where we are in the program is player snaps (when AJ) has 80 + snaps this will wear a team down with a SEC schedule likes ours (Rate #1 in the country I think).
 
#18
#18
What were their strength of schedules in year 2? I know, irrelevant for those that don't like Jones, but might play a factor for others.

Strength of schedule only matters if you can show that you would have beaten lesser teams. Butch has lost to lesser teams.

Would Hugh Freeze or James Franklin have lost to ~.500 Florida team with a coach about to be fired in their 2nd years?

Their records show that they only lost to pretty good competition in their 2nd years.

Would they have lost to Alabama? Sure. But no one here seems to have a problem with losing to Alabama. In fact, most are celebrating that we just didn't get blown out. The problem is when you lose to a poor Florida team.

And once again, it bears repeating that they inherited significantly less talent. Butch Jones had 13 4-star recruited starters last year. James Franklin had 1 4-star rated starter in Year 3. And, since strength of schedule is considered the major factor here, let's remember that the teams Freeze and Franklin inherited went 3-9 & 2-10 against roughly the same strength of schedule they were playing in their second years. The team Butch inherited went 5-7 against a much tougher strength of schedule.

...But let's look at it another way...can you name me all the coaches in the past 2 decades who took over a losing program, failed to improve over their predecessor in wins in either of their first two years, and yet still went on to great success at that program?
 
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#19
#19
There is no doubt that Tennessee is among the elite programs historically speaking. However, every team and every program goes through down years - even the elite ones. Every program, sooner or later, has to rebuild and redefine itself. CBJ is doing this - and he is doing it for the long term. He is not signing a ton of JUCO guys for a quick fix, he is building for something that can be sustained over time. The way these kids play their guts out every Saturday and give their all for Tennessee, and the way this staff recruits, I think we are in good hands. The month of November needs to be huge for this team - but I for one am confident that it will be. A lot of sunshine pumping I know, but dag on it can we not just support this team, these players and these coaches as we try to get to a bowl game and crawl out of this hole?
 
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#20
#20
This thread would have more merit if you would have just said "I don't have a clue what I'm talking about" or maybe "I'm not bright enough to understand that UT is on its 4th coach in the past 7 years and there are no schools that have endured a similar situation so there is now way to compare one job to another, and also, I don't understand what attrition means, could somebody help me?" Any of that would've been a drastic improvement from the crap you just posted. Your welcome.

On a side note....who in the Sam hell "liked" that post?
 
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#21
#21
I'm not comparing rosters of teams. I'm comparing what is considered re-building programs and what are not.

Tennessee is not a re-building program. If you really think we are, then take a look at ECU and let me know who is who.

by your definition I wouldn't call ECU a rebuild either....grew up there...the Pirates have ridden a roller-coaster since Pat Dye left....good coach....bad coach....good teams....bad teams. They are generally competitive and have years when they beat VT, etc. and others when they are thumped...
 
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#22
#22
What were their strength of schedules in year 2? I know, irrelevant for those that don't like Jones, but might play a factor for others.

He will totally ignore that as me and him have already been down that road. Facts do not sit well with his type.

If Dooley had played the same schedule that Franklin played while at Vandy he would still be the coach at UT and hailed the savior of the program.
 
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#23
#23
Strength of schedule only matters if you can show that you would have beaten lesser teams. Butch has lost to lesser teams. Would Hugh Freeze or James Franklin have lost to ~.500 Florida team with a coach about to be fired in their 2nd years?

Their records show that they only lost to pretty good competition in their 2nd years.

Would they have lost to Alabama? Sure. But no one here seems to have a problem with losing to Alabama. In fact, most are celebrating that we just didn't get blown out. The problem is when you lose to a poor Florida team.

And once again, it bears repeating that they inherited significantly less talent. Butch Jones had 13 4-star recruited starters last year. James Franklin had 1 4-star rated starter in Year 3. And, since strength of schedule is considered the major factor here, let's remember that the teams Freeze and Franklin inherited went 3-9 & 2-10 against roughly the same strength of schedule they were playing in their second years. The team Butch inherited went 5-7 against a much tougher strength of schedule.

...But let's look at it another way...can you name me all the coaches in the past 2 decades who took over a losing program, failed to improve over their predecessor in wins in either of their first two years, and yet still went on to great success at that program?

Freeze lost to a lesser team on Saturday but ......why bring that up.
 
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#24
#24
Strength of schedule only matters if you can show that you would have beaten lesser teams. Butch has lost to lesser teams.

Would Hugh Freeze or James Franklin have lost to ~.500 Florida team with a coach about to be fired in their 2nd years?

Their records show that they only lost to pretty good competition in their 2nd years.

Would they have lost to Alabama? Sure. But no one here seems to have a problem with losing to Alabama. In fact, most are celebrating that we just didn't get blown out. The problem is when you lose to a poor Florida team.

And once again, it bears repeating that they inherited significantly less talent. Butch Jones had 13 4-star recruited starters last year. James Franklin had 1 4-star rated starter in Year 3. And, since strength of schedule is considered the major factor here, let's remember that the teams Freeze and Franklin inherited went 3-9 & 2-10 against roughly the same strength of schedule they were playing in their second years. The team Butch inherited went 5-7 against a much tougher strength of schedule.

...But let's look at it another way...can you name me all the coaches in the past 2 decades who took over a losing program, failed to improve over their predecessor in wins in either of their first two years, and yet still went on to great success at that program?

And as I have already explained to you Jones is not done with his second season so why are you jumping to conclusions that he will not improve on his record in year 2?
 
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#25
#25
Freeze lost to a lesser team on Saturday but ......why bring that up.

Using his logic Freeze should be fired.

He can not move past the fact that Jones lost to Florida when it happens week in and week out Saban lost to a less talented Ole Miss team then Ole Miss lost to a less talented LSU team. It happens IMO Jones has lost one game this season he should have won and that was Florida.
 
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