Run Game Misconception

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Vol8188

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#1
I was talking about inside and outside zone the other day. The person I was talking to tried to proclaim that "all the best running teams use power/man blocking schemes".

Oregon lead the nation in rushing, using outside zone as their man running play. The other 4 teams in the top 5 in rushing were all option teams.

Alabama was 2nd in the SEC in rushing, 48 yards behind LSU. Alabama is of course another zone rushing team.

South Carolina was 3rd in the SEC in rushing. Anyone else remeber the inside zone read clinic they put on against us?

Let's not forget the Florida teams under Urban Myer.

If you believe the best rushing teams in college football use power/man blocking schemes, you probably don't watch a lot of football.
 
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#2
#2
Running / blocking schemes have a shelf life of several years (typically). There are a few factors that make a good running game:
1. The right personnel for your running style - i.e., A Tyler Bray type QB would not do well in the zone read - Tebow made that work at UF. Look what happened after he graduated - UF struggled mightily with Brantley trying to run the offense.

2. Well coached and game planning. A good coach knows how to attack a defense weakness. Each week the good teams make tweaks - unless they are just far superior athletically and don't need to.

3. All defenses tend to catch up to a new offense after several years. Remember the option at Oklahoma and Nebraska, they looked unstoppable. However, defensive geniuses finally figured out how to stop and it quickly faded away.

Given the right personnel and coaches, any running scheme can be successful. Obviously, some are more difficult to stop than others and the zone read is definitely one of them.
 
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#3
#3
I was talking about inside and outside zone the other day. The person I was talking to tried to proclaim that "all the best running teams use power/man blocking schemes".

Oregon lead the nation in rushing, using outside zone as their man running play. The other 4 teams in the top 5 in rushing were all option teams.

Alabama was 2nd in the SEC in rushing, 48 yards behind LSU. Alabama is of course another zone rushing team.

South Carolina was 3rd in the SEC in rushing. Anyone else remeber the inside zone read clinic they put on against us?

Let's not forget the Florida teams under Urban Myer.

If you believe the best rushing teams in college football use power/man blocking schemes, you probably don't watch a lot of football.

i agree, (power/man blocking) is usually used in goalline, and short yard situations, now days.
 
#4
#4
I was talking about inside and outside zone the other day. The person I was talking to tried to proclaim that "all the best running teams use power/man blocking schemes".

Oregon lead the nation in rushing, using outside zone as their man running play. The other 4 teams in the top 5 in rushing were all option teams.

Alabama was 2nd in the SEC in rushing, 48 yards behind LSU. Alabama is of course another zone rushing team.

South Carolina was 3rd in the SEC in rushing. Anyone else remeber the inside zone read clinic they put on against us?


Let's not forget the Florida teams under Urban Myer.

If you believe the best rushing teams in college football use power/man blocking schemes, you probably don't watch a lot of football.

I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make here... South Carolina uses the "We have Marcus Lattimore" concept. When he went out they relied heavily on the quarterback draw to gain much of their rushing yardage, which also helped keep defenses honest against their offense as a whole.

Florida under Meyer?... Im baffled as to how you think that offense compares to ours. They had 3 guys (Harvin, Rainey, Demps) who all run sub 4.4 and let's not forget the fullback they had at QB as well to help with that running game/spread offense.

Alabama and LSU are more on the point I think you are trying to make, but they both incorporate man blocking schemes as well, which is part of the reason they both have successful running games.. Oh wait not to mention the incredible talent both programs bring in annually on the offensive line and a top RB in the country each year. YOU obviously don't watch a lot of football if you don't think both Bama and LSU incorporate power run blocking schemes into their successful running attacks...

I understand there are benefits to the zone blocking schemes vs. man blocking but if you're going to make that point please do some homework. Oregon also makes me chuckle as they are an up tempo/spread team which we are not, and while yes they do have successful running attack, but much of that is due to the misdirection and uptempo pace they play at to catch the defenses off guard.

Our offense will improve in the running game this year for several reasons: JAY GRAHAM. Finally a veteran unit who is able to compete both mentally and physically at the line of scrimmage in the SEC. Our RB situation as a whole is better than a year ago as well with (Lane/Neal being the workhorses and Young to change the pace up in certain packages)

Also, in addition to both Bama and LSU who use power/man blocking in addition to zone schemes, Wisconsin who might be the best pure running team in the country on an annual basis would love to have this argument with you as well.

The point I'm trying to make here is that the good running teams know how to/are good at doing both.
 
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#7
#7
Running / blocking schemes have a shelf life of several years (typically). There are a few factors that make a good running game:
1. The right personnel for your running style - i.e., A Tyler Bray type QB would not do well in the zone read - Tebow made that work at UF. Look what happened after he graduated - UF struggled mightily with Brantley trying to run the offense.

2. Well coached and game planning. A good coach knows how to attack a defense weakness. Each week the good teams make tweaks - unless they are just far superior athletically and don't need to.

3. All defenses tend to catch up to a new offense after several years. Remember the option at Oklahoma and Nebraska, they looked unstoppable. However, defensive geniuses finally figured out how to stop and it quickly faded away.

Given the right personnel and coaches, any running scheme can be successful. Obviously, some are more difficult to stop than others and the zone read is definitely one of them.

1. You don't need an athletic QB to use zone schemes, not all zone teams are zone read teams. Do you remeber John Elway's super bowl season? How about Terrell Davis' 2,000 yard season? See Alabama under Nick Saban example of that.

2. The zone has been around for years. It's not going anywhere, just like isolation or power. It's here to stay.

3. Once again the zone has been around forever. I want to say it started in the 1970's. The Denver Bronco's were def. running it as early as 1995. I believe Alex Gibbs was teaching it as early as the mid 1980's.

4. Any offenensive philosophy that is sound and simple will be effective. I don't care how smart the d coordinator is, he only has 11 men to guard my 11. The option is still effective. The run n shoot offense is still effective. The single wing made a comeback in the form of the wildcat. The only reason SEC teams don't run the option is because elite players want to play in pro style offenses. They know that being an option QB, you will never get drafted number 1.
 
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#8
#8
I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make here... South Carolina uses the "We have Marcus Lattimore" concept. When he went out they relied heavily on the quarterback draw to gain much of their rushing yardage, which also helped keep defenses honest against their offense as a whole.

Florida under Meyer?... Im baffled as to how you think that offense compares to ours. They had 3 guys (Harvin, Rainey, Demps) who all run sub 4.4 and let's not forget the fullback they had at QB as well to help with that running game/spread offense.

Alabama and LSU are more on the point I think you are trying to make, but they both incorporate man blocking schemes as well, which is part of the reason they both have successful running games.. Oh wait not to mention the incredible talent both programs bring in annually on the offensive line and a top RB in the country each year. YOU obviously don't watch a lot of football if you don't think both Bama and LSU incorporate power run blocking schemes into their successful running attacks...

I understand there are benefits to the zone blocking schemes vs. man blocking but if you're going to make that point please do some homework. Oregon also makes me chuckle as they are an up tempo/spread team which we are not, and while yes they do have successful running attack, but much of that is due to the misdirection and uptempo pace they play at to catch the defenses off guard.

Our offense will improve in the running game this year for several reasons: JAY GRAHAM. Finally a veteran unit who is able to compete both mentally and physically at the line of scrimmage in the SEC. Our RB situation as a whole is better than a year ago as well with (Lane/Neal being the workhorses and Young to change the pace up in certain packages)

Also, in addition to both Bama and LSU who use power/man blocking in addition to zone schemes, Wisconsin who might be the best pure running team in the country on an annual basis would love to have this argument with you as well.

The point I'm trying to make here is that the good running teams know how to/are good at doing both.

1. USCjr was not running QB draw against us. They put on a freaking clinic on how to run the zone read.

2. I never compared Florida's offense under Urban Myer to UT. This conversation was strictly about man concepts vs. zone concepts.

3. Yes everyone will run the power play or isolation at some point, but Alabama's number one run play since Nick Saban arrived has been inside zone. They run a ton of inside zone.

4. I have no clue what you are really even saying for most of your post. I never said anything about Jay Graham, or UT's running game.

5. I never said that Alabama never uses man schemes. I never said Oregon wasn't a spread offense. But both of those teams are zone running teams! Both of them run more zone than they do anything else! Everyone runs a bit of man blocking schemes. Just like every football team runs the mesh route. That doens't mean that every football runs the air raid.
 
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#9
#9
i agree, (power/man blocking) is usually used in goalline, and short yard situations, now days.

I think with all the blitzes and presnap movement, that man schemes have just became too complicated to be practical as an every down play.
 
#11
#11
1. You don't need an athletic QB to use zone schemes, not all zone teams are zone read teams. Do you remeber John Elway's super bowl season? How about Terrell Davis' 2,000 yard season? See Alabama under Nick Saban example of that.

John Elway wasn't an athletic qb? He may not have been Micheal Vick running with the ball but he was effective nonetheless.
 
#13
#13
John Elway wasn't an athletic qb? He may not have been Micheal Vick running with the ball but he was effective nonetheless.

John Elway was not used in the running game. Denver did not use zone read with Elway. They used bootleg plays from under center, the same way most pro style zone teams do. Look at the Texans. All they run is zone. Schaub isn't a statue, but they are using him for his feet in that offense. Look at Alabama. None of Saban's Qbs have been athletic.
 
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#14
#14
It helps having great RBs

You've never heard of the Denver Broncos, have you? They had two fullbacks they converted to RB who ran for 1,000. They drafted T. Davis in the 7th round I believe. They had a constantly revolving door at RB for years, but they always produced.
 
#15
#15
I think the biggest issue is misdirection. There is so litlle of that in this offense. It keeps the defense hOnest and limits backside pursuit. I can't remember the last counter play that was run.
 
#16
#16
FW2 is correct on this issue. The OP example of Oregon and UF is only partially correct. They used zone, but out of a sprint draw scheme. That is why Oregon and UF ran the ball more than throw it during those seasons. You do need a QB that can run and read the D off the zone blocks. However, you can also run man blocking out of sprint draw. That is what Ohio State ran before Urban arrived. With sprint draw the RB gets the ball deeper in the backfield to read the O-line blocks that are made at the line of scrimmage and not downfield as in straight man and zone blocking schemes. Much like FW2 said, Oregon has quick, small backs that ran draw, reads, misdirection, etc. So did UF with Tebow/Rainey/Demps/etc. UT tried that sprint draw concept without a dual threat QB and enough quickness at RB. Obviously sucked at it.

Coaches Pittman and Graham hold the keys. They have the hosses to work with at O-line and TE. It could be either zone or man. Both will work if the RBs hit the creases as they are supposed to. I think Coach Pittman is more of a zone guy based on what I saw of his past coaching stops. That is why you need more quickness in the O-line. May be why Fulton is 15-20 lbs lighter and that Stone is looking good at OG. The OG and C in particular need to have some quick feet and good balance/leverage. The OT's seal depending on gap assignment so you need big guys with long arms and decent quickness. That made it easier to move Thomas to OG with Tiny and James at OT.

You will know it is zone if the O-line counters, traps, gets downfield, etc. You will know if it is man if they lock on a defender or pancake their guy. Either one works if the O-line does it right and the RB's run the style they should. In man they get behind the block in the assigned gap and cut off it to daylight. In zone they hit the gap fast and look for creases and cut backs.
 
#17
#17
FW2 is correct on this issue. The OP example of Oregon and UF is only partially correct. They used zone, but out of a sprint draw scheme. That is why Oregon and UF ran the ball more than throw it during those seasons. You do need a QB that can run and read the D off the zone blocks. However, you can also run man blocking out of sprint draw. That is what Ohio State ran before Urban arrived. With sprint draw the RB gets the ball deeper in the backfield to read the O-line blocks that are made at the line of scrimmage and not downfield as in straight man and zone blocking schemes. Much like FW2 said, Oregon has quick, small backs that ran draw, reads, misdirection, etc. So did UF with Tebow/Rainey/Demps/etc. UT tried that sprint draw concept without a dual threat QB and enough quickness at RB. Obviously sucked at it.

Coaches Pittman and Graham hold the keys. They have the hosses to work with at O-line and TE. It could be either zone or man. Both will work if the RBs hit the creases as they are supposed to. I think Coach Pittman is more of a zone guy based on what I saw of his past coaching stops. That is why you need more quickness in the O-line. May be why Fulton is 15-20 lbs lighter and that Stone is looking good at OG. The OG and C in particular need to have some quick feet and good balance/leverage. The OT's seal depending on gap assignment so you need big guys with long arms and decent quickness. That made it easier to move Thomas to OG with Tiny and James at OT.

You will know it is zone if the O-line counters, traps, gets downfield, etc. You will know if it is man if they lock on a defender or pancake their guy. Either one works if the O-line does it right and the RB's run the style they should. In man they get behind the block in the assigned gap and cut off it to daylight. In zone they hit the gap fast and look for creases and cut backs.

Neither Florida nor Oregon ran sprint draw. Sprint Draw is a two back play. It is ran by I formation teams and is another name for the slow isolation (slice) play.

Both Florida and Oregon were heavy zone teams. If you go to Brophy football's website, they even have the video of the great zone guru Alex Gibbs teaching Urban Myer and his staff how to run the outside zone when they got to Florida.

Here's a website dedicated to Oregon's offense. They run outside zone like crazy.

Fish Oregon Spread Offense Tutorial #1: The Inside Zone Read – FishDuck Oregon Ducks Football Analysis For The Casual Fan

Here's your link for Alex Gibbs teaching the Florida staff the Zone play.

Cripes! Get back to fundamentals...: Alex Gibbs: Stretch/Gun Run Developments (Part 1)


No you do not need a QB who can run to run the zone. Like I said, Saban has been running the inside zone as his main play since he arrived at Alabama.

You clearly know nothing about football. Zone plays do not involve pulling/traping (with the exception of the pin and pull scheme). The entire reason Alex Gibbs started running the zone was to prevent negative plays, that's why he doesn't pull linemen.

The first play people think of when they think of man/power schemes is the power play. Which involves leading your backside guard to the playside OLB. Man teams pull often. Zone teams do rarely.
 
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#18
#18
Here is what sprint draw is.

Sprint Draw Play Action - YouTube


This is an example of Ohio State using sprint draw play action, something the Ole Ball Coach used a lot with the Redskins, but you can still see what sprint draw is. It is a two back slow isolation play. Just like your normal man scheme isolation for the FB and the RB, but your offensive line blocks draw.

Neither Oregon nor Florida under Urban are/were sprint draw teams.
 
#19
#19
for the most part, teams that do not have "power" running games have a running qb.

for me, blocking scheme really isn't the thing. the "power" in a running game comes from the offensive line and the size of the runner.

florida did a lot of cute stuff. but, when they wanted a yard, they slammed a 240 lb dude who lowered his pads behind a 1st round draft pick at guard and center, both named pouncey.

i don't know what the blocking scheme for bama or lsu is, but what i do know is they give a muscle bound dude the ball and that guy runs behind a bunch of bulldozers
 
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#20
#20
for the most part, teams that do not have "power" running games have a running qb.

for me, blocking scheme really isn't the thing. the "power" in a running game comes from the offensive line and the size of the runner.

florida did a lot of cute stuff. but, when they wanted a yard they slammed a 240 lb dude who lowered his pads behind a 1st round draft pick at guard and center, both named pouncey.

i don't know what the blocking scheme for bama or lsu is, but what i do know is they give a muscle bound dude the ball and that guy runs behind a bunch of bulldozers

I don't really agree with that either. Either type of running back can be effective, regardless of the running ability of the QB. Look at Travis Stephens for UT. We didn't have a running QB when we he broke the schools single season rushing record, and I would never consider him to be a "power" running back.
 
#21
#21
i also want to add with regard to alabama.

i don't think people appreciate how special trent richardson was. the assumption everyone has of the bama offensive line is that they pancaked everyone, never missed a block, and always sent their man backward with ease.

anyway, i forget where i saw the footage, but it was a series of plays where bama's offensive line and lead blocker did their jobs and a series of plays where a guy whiffed on a block, got stood up by a defensive player at the line of scrimmage, or got beat by their man at the point of attack.

damn near every time richardson was hit at the line of scrimmage by a defensive lineman or linebacker at the line of scrimmage, it was still a 3 to 5 yard gain.

so, you don't have to have an active imagination to know what richardson did when everyone up front did their job.

whereas, florida might run jeff demps up the middle, and even when everyone happens to get a hat on a hat, but a defender sticks an arm out and he goes down for a gain of two.
 
#22
#22
You've never heard of the Denver Broncos, have you? They had two fullbacks they converted to RB who ran for 1,000. They drafted T. Davis in the 7th round I believe. They had a constantly revolving door at RB for years, but they always produced.

We're talking college, not pro
 
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#23
#23
i also want to add with regard to alabama.

i don't think people appreciate how special trent richardson was. the assumption everyone has of the bama offensive line is that they pancaked everyone, never missed a block, and always sent their man backward with ease.

anyway, i forget where i saw the footage, but it was a series of plays where bama's offensive line and lead blocker did their jobs and a series of plays where a guy whiffed on a block, got stood up by a defensive player at the line of scrimmage, or got beat by their man at the point of attack.

damn near every time richardson was hit at the line of scrimmage by a defensive lineman or linebacker at the line of scrimmage, it was still a 3 to 5 yard gain.

so, you don't have to have an active imagination to know what richardson did when everyone up front did their job.

whereas, florida might run jeff demps up the middle, and even when everyone happens to get a hat on a hat, but a defender sticks an arm out and he goes down for a gain of two.

I feel for you. Not only did Poole not have the speed of Demps, but a slight breeze could have tackled him.
 
#24
#24
that we'll be a strong running team this year. Our OL blocking may be better, with Richardson, but I'm not convinced it will be dramatically better. Generally, good players (good offensive linemen) are good players and mediocre players don't get much better with another year of experience. Beyond that, we don't have any exceptional backs--not even close. Our RB corps is--at best--mediocre.

The other big reason is that passing clearly will be our strength, and so Chaney is not going to commit to the run unless it really shows early in the season--and early in games. When he doubt, he's going to have Bray chuck it.
 
#25
#25
that we'll be a strong running team this year. Our OL blocking may be better, with Richardson, but I'm not convinced it will be dramatically better. Generally, good players (good offensive linemen) are good players and mediocre players don't get much better with another year of experience. Beyond that, we don't have any exceptional backs--not even close. Our RB corps is--at best--mediocre.

The other big reason is that passing clearly will be our strength, and so Chaney is not going to commit to the run unless it really shows early in the season--and early in games. When he doubt, he's going to have Bray chuck it.

I didn't start this thread to be an argument about how our running game would be or what scheme we should use, but I agree with the majority of what you just said. Our passing game will make up for many of our imperfections in the running game. The only thing I disagree with is your opinion of our backfield. I think they Lane may suprise us this year.
 

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