Run Game Misconception

[Vol8188]

Originally Posted by Turbo5351

SEC defense is so strong and fast you have to have a power game to run in the SEC. Look at Oregon stats against LSU last ear they did not get 100 yards rushing. Look at how LSU and Bama running games beats and wears down a defense till they score and pull away by the 4th quarter.

Tell that to Alabama, Auburn, and South Carolina. All of them are also zone teams.

[Vol8188]

Originally Posted by jps2194

1. You are confusing zone blocking (which Denver used) with zone read or whatever you want to call what Florida ran. Many of UF's running plays were based on the QB reading what the defensive end did. If the end crashes, the QB pitches the ball, if the DE drifts with the RB, the QB keeps the ball and runs through the hole created by the DE. You absolutely need an athletic QB to run this offense as he is an additional running back. Alabama is not running the same offense UF ran.

2. Never said it was going away, but offenses come and go . Certain aspects will stay around but offenses definitely change with time.

3. So are you saying that if a defense has faced the same type of offense often, they won't be better prepared for it. That is ridiculous, defense is based on reading what an offense is going to do and putting yourselves in the best position to stop it. The more the defense can ascertain what the offense is going to do, the less points the offense will score.

4. The primary reason the option died is because defenses changed drastically from the 70's early 80's. Speed became key in stopping the option. Teams started converting running backs to linebackers and started playing more 3-4 type defenses. If your analysis is correct, then why have you never seen the option in the NFL since they wouldn't have to worry about making recruits happy?

1. The blocking of inside zone is exactly the same as inside zone read. The only difference is that you run the read out of the shotgun and let your qb read the DE. Under center, you still leave the DE but you use the bootleg fake by the QB to hold the DE.

2. You still don't know what you're talking about because the play you are describing is speed option. You don't "pitch" on a typical zone read play. You either keep or give.

Alabama did use the same blocking scheme as Florida. Florida ran more outside zone and Alabama uses more inside zone, but both are zone running teams. Sure they are not completely alike, but that's because one team runs pro style zone (like Denver) and the other runs the spread zone read version. Still the exact same blocking scheme though.

3. Yes, a defense does get better at defending an offense the more they see it, but if the offense is based on sound principles and has proper constraint plays built in to prevent a defense from overplaying, then it doesn't matter how often a defense has seen it.

4. They don't run the option in the NFL because of how expensive Qbs are. You don't sign a 100 million dollar contract with a guy, and then run the option with him. The option never died. Look at Air Force and Georgia Tech. It is not as widely used as it was, but that comes back to the NFL and QB contracts, along with improved rules to help the vertical passing game.

[jps2194]

Originally Posted by Vol8188

1. The blocking of inside zone is exactly the same as inside zone read. The only difference is that you run the read out of the shotgun and let your qb read the DE. Under center, you still leave the DE but you use the bootleg fake by the QB to hold the DE.

2. You still don't know what you're talking about because the play you are describing is speed option. You don't "pitch" on a typical zone read play. You either keep or give.

Alabama did use the same blocking scheme as Florida. Florida ran more outside zone and Alabama uses more inside zone, but both are zone running teams. Sure they are not completely alike, but that's because one team runs pro style zone (like Denver) and the other runs the spread zone read version. Still the exact same blocking scheme though.

3. Yes, a defense does get better at defending an offense the more they see it, but if the offense is based on sound principles and has proper constraint plays built in to prevent a defense from overplaying, then it doesn't matter how often a defense has seen it.

4. They don't run the option in the NFL because of how expensive Qbs are. You don't sign a 100 million dollar contract with a guy, and then run the option with him. The option never died. Look at Air Force and Georgia Tech. It is not as widely used as it was, but that comes back to the NFL and QB contracts, along with improved rules to help the vertical passing game.

I know as much as you do. I played college football and have coached football for many years.

We are talking about two different items. I was referring to the spread option that UF ran where you were referring to zone blocking. The QB rides the RB with the ball in his gut and reads the DE and decides what to do based on the DE. My bad on saying pitch. Although there are plays where he has an option to pitch the ball. You absolutely need a athletic QB to run the spread option - that is what I was referring to. Of course you don't need a athletic QB to hand off the ball. Let's get on the same page - zone blocking vs. spread option. That is what I was referring to.

Never said Alabama didn't use the same blocking scheme as UF - I was referring to the overall offense, not blocking schemes.

Of course the option is not completely dead, but my reference to dead was in relation to the number of teams that ran 30 years ago compared to now.

[Vol8188]

Originally Posted by jps2194

I know as much as you do. I played college football and have coached football for many years.

We are talking about two different items. I was referring to the spread option that UF ran where you were referring to zone blocking. The QB rides the RB with the ball in his gut and reads the DE and decides what to do based on the DE. My bad on saying pitch. Although there are plays where he has an option to pitch the ball. You absolutely need a athletic QB to run the spread option - that is what I was referring to. Of course you don't need a athletic QB to hand off the ball. Let's get on the same page - zone blocking vs. spread option. That is what I was referring to.

Never said Alabama didn't use the same blocking scheme as UF - I was referring to the overall offense, not blocking schemes.

Of course the option is not completely dead, but my reference to dead was in relation to the number of teams that ran 30 years ago compared to now.

I'm refering to zone blocking because Florida ran a ton of outside zone read when they had Tebow. They also ran something called bash. Which is outside zone read, except the RB goes opposite to hold the DE. Then if the DE goes with the RB, Tebow would keep it.

You are right though, they would run a triple option look off of the zone read. Rich Rod and Chip Kelly use that a lot too.

My entire reasoning behind including Florida, Alabama, and Oregon all in the same category is because my original post was about zone blocking as opposed to man, power, or gap schemes. All three of those teams, although they all ran it a bit different, were zone based attacks.

I don't know if offenses really die due to the defense. I think it has more to do with a popularity contest. Everyone wants to run the hottest newest offense (even though everything is just recycled, look at the single wing/wildcat for an example). When someone else does something they perceive as newer and more popular, I think there's a lot of coaches in the country who believe their team has to try and fit in.

[Phat-Phil]

Originally Posted by Vol8188

John Elway was not used in the running game. Denver did not use zone read with Elway. They used bootleg plays from under center, the same way most pro style zone teams do. Look at the Texans. All they run is zone. Schaub isn't a statue, but they are using him for his feet in that offense. Look at Alabama. None of Saban's Qbs have been athletic.

John Elway wasn't used in the running game? Do you have a clue what you are talking about or do you just try and act like it? If Elway wasn't used in the running game is that why he ranks 1st all time in rushing attempts by a qb (774) and 6th in all time in rushing yards by a qb (3417)? He is considered one of the best running quarterbacks in the history of the NFL so I think you may be confused.

[bamawriter]

Originally Posted by Vol8188

Tell that to Alabama, Auburn, and South Carolina. All of them are also zone teams.

True, but they all utilize power backs. Zone blocking is most effective when you can use it to confuse the defense as to where the play is headed. Having a road-grading OLine and a power back makes the job easier once you've got the D off balance.

[Vol8188]

Originally Posted by bamawriter

True, but they all utilize power backs. Zone blocking is most effective when you can use it to confuse the defense as to where the play is headed. Having a road-grading OLine and a power back makes the job easier once you've got the D off balance.

Debatable, but the entire point of my argument is that zone blocking is in no way inferior to other schemes.

[Vol8188]

Originally Posted by Phat-Phil

John Elway wasn't used in the running game? Do you have a clue what you are talking about or do you just try and act like it? If Elway wasn't used in the running game is that why he ranks 1st all time in rushing attempts by a qb (774) and 6th in all time in rushing yards by a qb (3417)? He is considered one of the best running quarterbacks in the history of the NFL so I think you may be confused.

Over Elway's last four years of his career (the years with Alex Gibbs), he averaged 11.51 rushing yards per game. He was not a major part of that running game. Sure, maybe he would keep the ball on one or two bootlegs a game, or take off when nothing was open downfield, but I don't think you can consider 11.51 yards per game to be a significant portion of the running game.

Just because Elway had wheels, didn't mean they used em a lot. Big Ben can run, Steve Young could run, Aaron Rogers can run, but none of them have/had significant roles in their teams rushing attacks.

[82_VOL_83]

I think I am lost but I will by george do some research!

[Vol8188]

Originally Posted by TNGlen

I think I am lost but I will by george do some research!

Here's some good links to start with.

Fish Oregon Spread Offense Tutorial #1: The Inside Zone Read – FishDuck Oregon Ducks Football Analysis For The Casual Fan

Fish Oregon Spread Offense Tutorial #2: The Outside Zone Read – FishDuck Oregon Ducks Football Analysis For The Casual Fan

A deep look at Alabama's running game as helmed by Nick Saban and Trent Richardson. - Grantland

Cripes! Get back to fundamentals...: Alex Gibbs: Stretch/Gun Run Developments (Part 1)

Coach Hoover's Football Site: 4-3 vs. the Oregon Spread - Defending Bash and Midline

[82_VOL_83]

Originally Posted by Vol8188

Here's some good links to start with.

Fish Oregon Spread Offense Tutorial #1: The Inside Zone Read – FishDuck Oregon Ducks Football Analysis For The Casual Fan

Fish Oregon Spread Offense Tutorial #2: The Outside Zone Read – FishDuck Oregon Ducks Football Analysis For The Casual Fan

A deep look at Alabama's running game as helmed by Nick Saban and Trent Richardson. - Grantland

Cripes! Get back to fundamentals...: Alex Gibbs: Stretch/Gun Run Developments (Part 1)

Coach Hoover's Football Site: 4-3 vs. the Oregon Spread - Defending Bash and Midline

Thanks bro, when I played, heck we just blocked. I was a pissant WR and SS so I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to them big boys. I just stayed out of their way.

[17Vols]

Originally Posted by Vol8188

John Elway was not used in the running game. Denver did not use zone read with Elway. They used bootleg plays from under center, the same way most pro style zone teams do. Look at the Texans. All they run is zone. Schaub isn't a statue, but they are using him for his feet in that offense. Look at Alabama. None of Saban's Qbs have been athletic.

you don't have a clue what you're talking about, and even if you did, you're boring. call this the " i'm gonna use big words and pretend to be a coach " thread.

why can't you just tell made up stories about running into players at wal-mart like everyone else??

[Vol8188]

Originally Posted by 17Vols

you don't have a clue what you're talking about, and even if you did, you're boring. call this the " i'm gonna use big words and pretend to be a coach " thread.

why can't you just tell made up stories about running into players at wal-mart like everyone else??

Which one of those words was too big for you "Alabama" or "athletic"?

[ACvol3]

Originally Posted by Vol8188

You've never heard of the Denver Broncos, have you? They had two fullbacks they converted to RB who ran for 1,000. They drafted T. Davis in the 7th round I believe. They had a constantly revolving door at RB for years, but they always produced.

You're right, they've been successful with a lot of no name backs, but TD was special.. And u see what happens when u put a special back in an offense like that.. If not for injury, he could've been one of the best of all time in that system.

[Vol8188]

Originally Posted by ACvol3

You're right, they've been successful with a lot of no name backs, but TD was special.. And u see what happens when u put a special back in an offense like that.. If not for injury, he could've been one of the best of all time in that system.

I def. agree with that. Some of the plays he made were unreal. Few backs have that size speed combo, and such toughness.