So you want to be a coach?

[MikeHamiltonFan]

At one point I wanted to be a college football coach. I was acquaintances with a few guys in the profession and it seemed like a great job. Now I know I would never want that job and most of the people on here who second guess the coaches would not either.

1. Did you succeed at a high level in football as a player? If Al Wilson is on this board and criticizes the coaching of an LB, the man knows what he is talking about. If you starred at greenback high school in 1977 during an 8 win season, none of the players will respect you right off the bat. It does not matter if you "hurt your knee or you could have been a good un".

Guys who did not succeed at least at the D1 level as a football player have a tremendous credibility deficit when they start relationships with players. It can be overcome (see Mike Leach) but it is VERY rare.

2. Are you already rich?
You had better be if you want to be a coach in the SEC. Everyone starts out at the bottom, and GAs get enough to eat Ramen noodles. But but...I am already accomplished in another arena surely I can start out as a position coach...No. Derek Dooley went from being a lawyer to eating crap as a GA. He was promoted after showing lots of competence but he had a year that was very lean financially. Peter Sirmon does not care about getting no money because he is rich from the NFL. Most of the guys going into coaching are very poor and stay that way for a while.

You could also coach in HS and succeed there. It worked for Gus Malzahn and Charlie Weis and did not work for about 25000 guys who worked hard and succeeded in high school football and never got a job in college even though they wanted one.

3.
Do you want to see your family? The current UT staff is away from their family about as much as Kiffin's staff. Unlike Lane's rowdy boys it is not because they leave work and drink two more redbull so they can club for a while before taking an ambien on the drive home, it is because they get off the plane after the LSU game and head to the office to watch game tape.
They get vacation during the summer (Dooley's was cut short by Bar Knox) but during the season and after in recruiting they work 80 hours plus per week.

4. Do you want to make good friends?
At any time you might get canned. The special teams coach for the Dolphins has a bad game and he is fired. Your buddies want to talk about your job some of the time, offer their free and worthless advice etc. Those friends that you make who spend time with your wife and kids while you are at the office, who defend you with loyalty etc. are gone within 1-2 years because you were fired or were offered a promotion in another city.

5. Can you suck up to an immature teenager?
Not only do you have to keep players motivated, and babysit them, and encourage them and teach them patiently (and some of the most athletic are always some of the dumbest so you have to show them the same thing over and over) you also have to fawn over a talented teenager who is dating 8 other programs but wants you to keep showing the love. Even when you get the commitment, you have to keep working on the relationship until NSD. If you are unwilling to cheat, you will have kids you invest enormous amounts of your time in getting who end up spurning you and heading to North Carolina or wherever the current $$$ is coming from.

Our coaches are human beings. They make mistakes. Their mistakes are scrutinized and publicized and people are paid full time to talk about and mock them. The ultimate prize is a ton of money, and a ton of goodwill from lots of people who will turn on you in a heartbeat if your team loses (Mark Richt).

So next time the offense does not run a slant, or the defense does not blitz when you think it should be, realize that the coaches are intelligent, have worked very hard to win and have eaten a lot of crap to be in the position where they are leading the team you are cheering for.

 

[crusse10]

From what I hear, there's too much stress. I'd hate to waffle on my decision because of health risks

 

[RhodeIslandVol]

Don't diss Greenback
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[SpringBokVol]

Nice post. And I think Dooley gets. He is in a very public position making a lot of money so he and other coaches are willing to take the ups and downs.

It is the ultimate risk reward profession.

 

[mtn_vol64]

True to be a coach is truly a life changing experience.....and that is just on the high school level. I could only imagine what head coaches have to deal with at D-1.

 

[MikeHamiltonFan]

Former Player? Rich? Nick Saban sucks up to teenagers?

Nick Saban sure has kissed up to a ton of teenagers. He is almost 60 years old. He did play in college as a DB at Kent State from 1970-71.
Then he made no money as a GA at Kent State from 1972-1974.
1975–1976 Kent State (D Asst.) almost no money but more
1977 Syracuse (D. Asst.)
1978–1979 West Virginia (D. Asst.)
1980–1981 Ohio State (DBs) first decent money after a decade of work that is comparable to what many of us make right out of college.
1982 Navy (D. Asst.) step back job wise. Not sure what happened in his life that made this job change happen. Maybe his DBs at OSU got torched.
1983–1987 Michigan State (DBs/DC) some earlier career connections pay off and he gets a pretty good job.
1988–1989 Houston Oilers (DBs)
1990 Toledo (finally made it to HC).


I did forget to say that our last coach unlike Dooley ate very little crap and coasted on a last name that was gold in the profession. If you are reading this and you are the progeny of Bellichik or Parcells the eating crap stuff probably does not apply to you as much.

 

[AppStVol]

At one point I wanted to be a college football coach. I was acquaintances with a few guys in the profession and it seemed like a great job. Now I know I would never want that job and most of the people on here who second guess the coaches would not either.

1. Did you succeed at a high level in football as a player? If Al Wilson is on this board and criticizes the coaching of an LB, the man knows what he is talking about. If you starred at greenback high school in 1977 during an 8 win season, none of the players will respect you right off the bat. It does not matter if you "hurt your knee or you could have been a good un".

Guys who did not succeed at least at the D1 level as a football player have a tremendous credibility deficit when they start relationships with players. It can be overcome (see Mike Leach) but it is VERY rare.

2. Are you already rich?
You had better be if you want to be a coach in the SEC. Everyone starts out at the bottom, and GAs get enough to eat Ramen noodles. But but...I am already accomplished in another arena surely I can start out as a position coach...No. Derek Dooley went from being a lawyer to eating crap as a GA. He was promoted after showing lots of competence but he had a year that was very lean financially. Peter Sirmon does not care about getting no money because he is rich from the NFL. Most of the guys going into coaching are very poor and stay that way for a while.

You could also coach in HS and succeed there. It worked for Gus Malzahn and Charlie Weis and did not work for about 25000 guys who worked hard and succeeded in high school football and never got a job in college even though they wanted one.

3.
Do you want to see your family? The current UT staff is away from their family about as much as Kiffin's staff. Unlike Lane's rowdy boys it is not because they leave work and drink two more redbull so they can club for a while before taking an ambien on the drive home, it is because they get off the plane after the LSU game and head to the office to watch game tape.
They get vacation during the summer (Dooley's was cut short by Bar Knox) but during the season and after in recruiting they work 80 hours plus per week.

4. Do you want to make good friends?
At any time you might get canned. The special teams coach for the Dolphins has a bad game and he is fired. Your buddies want to talk about your job some of the time, offer their free and worthless advice etc. Those friends that you make who spend time with your wife and kids while you are at the office, who defend you with loyalty etc. are gone within 1-2 years because you were fired or were offered a promotion in another city.

5. Can you suck up to an immature teenager?
Not only do you have to keep players motivated, and babysit them, and encourage them and teach them patiently (and some of the most athletic are always some of the dumbest so you have to show them the same thing over and over) you also have to fawn over a talented teenager who is dating 8 other programs but wants you to keep showing the love. Even when you get the commitment, you have to keep working on the relationship until NSD. If you are unwilling to cheat, you will have kids you invest enormous amounts of your time in getting who end up spurning you and heading to North Carolina or wherever the current $$$ is coming from.

Our coaches are human beings. They make mistakes. Their mistakes are scrutinized and publicized and people are paid full time to talk about and mock them. The ultimate prize is a ton of money, and a ton of goodwill from lots of people who will turn on you in a heartbeat if your team loses (Mark Richt).

So next time the offense does not run a slant, or the defense does not blitz when you think it should be, realize that the coaches are intelligent, have worked very hard to win and have eaten a lot of crap to be in the position where they are leading the team you are cheering for.

I doubt Dooley had to lean of a year with the Dooley family money, not to mention he's married to a doctor.

 

[GoBigOrangeVols]

good post MHF.

 

[tigervol9802]

At one point I wanted to be a college football coach. I was acquaintances with a few guys in the profession and it seemed like a great job. Now I know I would never want that job and most of the people on here who second guess the coaches would not either.

1. Did you succeed at a high level in football as a player? If Al Wilson is on this board and criticizes the coaching of an LB, the man knows what he is talking about. If you starred at greenback high school in 1977 during an 8 win season, none of the players will respect you right off the bat. It does not matter if you "hurt your knee or you could have been a good un".

Guys who did not succeed at least at the D1 level as a football player have a tremendous credibility deficit when they start relationships with players. It can be overcome (see Mike Leach) but it is VERY rare.

2. Are you already rich?
You had better be if you want to be a coach in the SEC. Everyone starts out at the bottom, and GAs get enough to eat Ramen noodles. But but...I am already accomplished in another arena surely I can start out as a position coach...No. Derek Dooley went from being a lawyer to eating crap as a GA. He was promoted after showing lots of competence but he had a year that was very lean financially. Peter Sirmon does not care about getting no money because he is rich from the NFL. Most of the guys going into coaching are very poor and stay that way for a while.

You could also coach in HS and succeed there. It worked for Gus Malzahn and Charlie Weis and did not work for about 25000 guys who worked hard and succeeded in high school football and never got a job in college even though they wanted one.

3.
Do you want to see your family? The current UT staff is away from their family about as much as Kiffin's staff. Unlike Lane's rowdy boys it is not because they leave work and drink two more redbull so they can club for a while before taking an ambien on the drive home, it is because they get off the plane after the LSU game and head to the office to watch game tape.
They get vacation during the summer (Dooley's was cut short by Bar Knox) but during the season and after in recruiting they work 80 hours plus per week.

4. Do you want to make good friends?
At any time you might get canned. The special teams coach for the Dolphins has a bad game and he is fired. Your buddies want to talk about your job some of the time, offer their free and worthless advice etc. Those friends that you make who spend time with your wife and kids while you are at the office, who defend you with loyalty etc. are gone within 1-2 years because you were fired or were offered a promotion in another city.

5. Can you suck up to an immature teenager?
Not only do you have to keep players motivated, and babysit them, and encourage them and teach them patiently (and some of the most athletic are always some of the dumbest so you have to show them the same thing over and over) you also have to fawn over a talented teenager who is dating 8 other programs but wants you to keep showing the love. Even when you get the commitment, you have to keep working on the relationship until NSD. If you are unwilling to cheat, you will have kids you invest enormous amounts of your time in getting who end up spurning you and heading to North Carolina or wherever the current $$$ is coming from.

Our coaches are human beings. They make mistakes. Their mistakes are scrutinized and publicized and people are paid full time to talk about and mock them. The ultimate prize is a ton of money, and a ton of goodwill from lots of people who will turn on you in a heartbeat if your team loses (Mark Richt).

So next time the offense does not run a slant, or the defense does not blitz when you think it should be, realize that the coaches are intelligent, have worked very hard to win and have eaten a lot of crap to be in the position where they are leading the team you are cheering for.

So instead you decided to chase ambulances for a living?

 

[MikeHamiltonFan]

I doubt Dooley had to lean of a year with the Dooley family money, not to mention he's married to a doctor.

He is a pretty proud man, I doubt he asked Barbara for some cash...

His wife is a doctor and I doubt he had no cash left from working as an attorney at a very respected firm in Atlanta.

That is my point though. If you are rich and you are ready to go work as a GA, then financially it is not hard.

GAs in coaching remind me of LAs in DC and guys who work on campaigns. You are either 1. poor and barely getting by or 2. You are rich. Lots of the DC people are living with family allowances. Most people starting out in the coaching profession are not.

 

[MikeHamiltonFan]

good post MHF.

Thank you sir.

Larry Slade was always the guy whose job I wanted.

I was speaking about law at a coaching clinic and a guy who was an NFL secondary coach was speaking. I sat in to his session and felt like an idiot because he was explaining why DBS and safeties are not supposed to look back for the ball in certain circumstances. I began to realize that many of the times I was most angry at Slade's poor coaching, his secondary was doing exactly what this NFL coach was saying they should be doing, playing the man and not the ball.

 

[winchestervol63]

At one point I wanted to be a college football coach. I was acquaintances with a few guys in the profession and it seemed like a great job. Now I know I would never want that job and most of the people on here who second guess the coaches would not either.

1. Did you succeed at a high level in football as a player? If Al Wilson is on this board and criticizes the coaching of an LB, the man knows what he is talking about. If you starred at greenback high school in 1977 during an 8 win season, none of the players will respect you right off the bat. It does not matter if you "hurt your knee or you could have been a good un".

Guys who did not succeed at least at the D1 level as a football player have a tremendous credibility deficit when they start relationships with players. It can be overcome (see Mike Leach) but it is VERY rare.

2. Are you already rich?
You had better be if you want to be a coach in the SEC. Everyone starts out at the bottom, and GAs get enough to eat Ramen noodles. But but...I am already accomplished in another arena surely I can start out as a position coach...No. Derek Dooley went from being a lawyer to eating crap as a GA. He was promoted after showing lots of competence but he had a year that was very lean financially. Peter Sirmon does not care about getting no money because he is rich from the NFL. Most of the guys going into coaching are very poor and stay that way for a while.

You could also coach in HS and succeed there. It worked for Gus Malzahn and Charlie Weis and did not work for about 25000 guys who worked hard and succeeded in high school football and never got a job in college even though they wanted one.

3.
Do you want to see your family? The current UT staff is away from their family about as much as Kiffin's staff. Unlike Lane's rowdy boys it is not because they leave work and drink two more redbull so they can club for a while before taking an ambien on the drive home, it is because they get off the plane after the LSU game and head to the office to watch game tape.
They get vacation during the summer (Dooley's was cut short by Bar Knox) but during the season and after in recruiting they work 80 hours plus per week.

4. Do you want to make good friends?
At any time you might get canned. The special teams coach for the Dolphins has a bad game and he is fired. Your buddies want to talk about your job some of the time, offer their free and worthless advice etc. Those friends that you make who spend time with your wife and kids while you are at the office, who defend you with loyalty etc. are gone within 1-2 years because you were fired or were offered a promotion in another city.

5. Can you suck up to an immature teenager?
Not only do you have to keep players motivated, and babysit them, and encourage them and teach them patiently (and some of the most athletic are always some of the dumbest so you have to show them the same thing over and over) you also have to fawn over a talented teenager who is dating 8 other programs but wants you to keep showing the love. Even when you get the commitment, you have to keep working on the relationship until NSD. If you are unwilling to cheat, you will have kids you invest enormous amounts of your time in getting who end up spurning you and heading to North Carolina or wherever the current $$$ is coming from.

Our coaches are human beings. They make mistakes. Their mistakes are scrutinized and publicized and people are paid full time to talk about and mock them. The ultimate prize is a ton of money, and a ton of goodwill from lots of people who will turn on you in a heartbeat if your team loses (Mark Richt).

So next time the offense does not run a slant, or the defense does not blitz when you think it should be, realize that the coaches are intelligent, have worked very hard to win and have eaten a lot of crap to be in the position where they are leading the team you are cheering for.

I agree with your sentiments - coaching is a hard hustle for sure.

I'm not hatin', but think your #1 point might be overstated. I think a smart guy who can be a good coach can and will overcome a lack of playing success. Was interested, so I looked some up. I think it is more common to overcome a lack of playing prowess than you might think.

- Saban played unremarkably at Kent State.
- Bellichik played at Wesleyen College or something like that.
- Mack Brown blew his knee out.
- Pete Carroll played two years at Marin JC and then two at U of Pacific. Did have some success at U of P, but I don't think that's the sort of success you were describing. Couldn't make the Honolulu Hawaiians in the old WFL.
- Lou Holtz couldn't possibly have gotten anything done...lol...didn't even look him up.
- Chris Petersen played at Sacremento City College and UC Davis
- Chip Kelly played at New Hampshire (though I think he was a pretty good athlete, by all accounts)
- Brian Kelly played at Assumption College
- Jon Gruden went to Muskingum College for a year and then was a backup QB at U of Dayton the rest of his college career.
- Tuberville played at Southern Arkansas

There is surely an even longer list of accomplished players who go on to be great coaches, but I don't think that not being a high-level player stops you from being a great coach, if you've got the goods to do it. Surely helps, though, I would agree.

 

[MikeHamiltonFan]

I agree with your sentiments - coaching is a hard hustle for sure.

I'm not hatin', but think your #1 point might be overstated. I think a smart guy who can be a good coach can and will overcome a lack of playing success. Was interested, so I looked some up. I think it is more common to overcome a lack of playing prowess than you might think.

- Saban played unremarkably at Kent State.
- Bellichik played at Wesleyen College or something like that.
- Mack Brown blew his knee out.
- Pete Carroll played two years at Marin JC and then two at U of Pacific. Did have some success at U of P, but I don't think that's the sort of success you were describing. Couldn't make the Honolulu Hawaiians in the old WFL.
- Lou Holtz couldn't possibly have gotten anything done...lol...didn't even look him up.
- Chris Petersen played at Sacremento City College and UC Davis
- Chip Kelly played at New Hampshire (though I think he was a pretty good athlete, by all accounts)
- Brian Kelly played at Assumption College
- Jon Gruden went to Muskingum College for a year and then was a backup QB at U of Dayton the rest of his college career.
- Tuberville played at Southern Arkansas

There is surely an even longer list of accomplished players who go on to be great coaches, but I don't think that not being a high-level player stops you from being a great coach, if you've got the goods to do it. Surely helps, though, I would agree.

Thanks man. Yeah everyone you listed is good example but I also think they almost all had more success in football than most of the people (including me) who criticize them. Playing D1 even if you are not an All American means you were better as a football player than the vast majority of people.

 

[Ohio Vol]

I agree with your sentiments - coaching is a hard hustle for sure.

I'm not hatin', but think your #1 point might be overstated. I think a smart guy who can be a good coach can and will overcome a lack of playing success. Was interested, so I looked some up. I think it is more common to overcome a lack of playing prowess than you might think.

- Saban played unremarkably at Kent State.
- Bellichik played at Wesleyen College or something like that.
- Mack Brown blew his knee out.
- Pete Carroll played two years at Marin JC and then two at U of Pacific. Did have some success at U of P, but I don't think that's the sort of success you were describing. Couldn't make the Honolulu Hawaiians in the old WFL.
- Lou Holtz couldn't possibly have gotten anything done...lol...didn't even look him up.
- Chris Petersen played at Sacremento City College and UC Davis
- Chip Kelly played at New Hampshire (though I think he was a pretty good athlete, by all accounts)
- Brian Kelly played at Assumption College
- Jon Gruden went to Muskingum College for a year and then was a backup QB at U of Dayton the rest of his college career.
- Tuberville played at Southern Arkansas

There is surely an even longer list of accomplished players who go on to be great coaches, but I don't think that not being a high-level player stops you from being a great coach, if you've got the goods to do it. Surely helps, though, I would agree.

Being around a collegiate coaching staff on a somewhat intimate basis is the ultimate foot in the door. I used to work with someone who played NAIA ball; I had a few years coaching experience and was in the process of devising my own offense. He didn't start and didn't seem too terribly bright. Guess who got the first GA position that he put in for?

I'll also be the first to admit that, as a player, I sucked. On a team that had a large enough roster to have an A team and a B team, I was a scout teamer as a senior.

 

[GoBigOrangeVols]

- Lou Holtz couldn't possibly have gotten anything done...lol...didn't even look him up. .

Lispy Lou actually played linebacker at kent state back in the day.

 

[tm3]

MHF, you have to actually ask this question, given the multitudes here who are much smarter than our coach, their coach, any coach (and if you doubt what i say, just ask them)?

to expand on what WV63 said, i heard it opined once that mediocre players usually become much better coaches than great players. the reasoning is that great players have such talent that they adopt techniques without much thought, while lesser players really have to focus and work on fundamentals because it does not come as naturally. thus when it comes time to instruct others, the mediocre players are more capable.

interesting thread.

 

[MikeHamiltonFan]

MHF, you have to actually ask this question, given the multitudes here who are much smarter than our coach, their coach, any coach (and if you doubt what i say, just ask them)?

to expand on what WV63 said, i heard it opined once that mediocre players usually become much better coaches than great players. the reasoning is that great players have such talent that they adopt techniques without much thought, while lesser players really have to focus and work on fundamentals because it does not come as naturally. thus when it comes time to instruct others, the mediocre players are more capable.

interesting thread.

Thanks!

On the flip side to your point about mediocre players, sometimes someone is too intelligent to have the patience to work with people who are not as bright.

I think Peyton Manning would really struggle as an OC or even QBs coach because he is smarter and harder working than most guys. When you watch film one time and get it you do not understand someone who watches the same film 5 times and cannot see the important things.

 

[Ohio Vol]

MHF, you have to actually ask this question, given the multitudes here who are much smarter than our coach, their coach, any coach (and if you doubt what i say, just ask them)?

to expand on what WV63 said, i heard it opined once that mediocre players usually become much better coaches than great players. the reasoning is that great players have such talent that they adopt techniques without much thought, while lesser players really have to focus and work on fundamentals because it does not come as naturally. thus when it comes time to instruct others, the mediocre players are more capable.

interesting thread.

As the famous saying goes, "Those who can play, play. Those who can't, coach."

 

[tm3]

On the flip side to your point about mediocre players, sometimes someone is too intelligent to have the patience to work with people who are not as bright.

this imo is one of the ongoing challenges of being a successful manager, regardless of the profession.

and agree re Peyton, plus he can make more money in broadcasting with less work so why take on the stress of coaching?

 

[Burhead]

You don't have to play a down of football to be a football coach. If you understand the game and can motivate players to win that's all it takes, case and point Todd Haley of the Kansas City Chiefs. His sport was golf but he has a love for the game...

 

[Brentwoodvolfan]

Thanks man. Yeah everyone you listed is good example but I also think they almost all had more success in football than most of the people (including me) who criticize them. Playing D1 even if you are not an All American means you were better as a football player than the vast majority of people.

Great post!! but from years of coaching on travel teams and being around college players it's usually the 2nd string players or lower division players that make best coaches. I think this is probably because they have what it takes but lack talent some of better players have. If your not a star you have to work to get spot and that sometimes makes better coaches cause you get it!!! just my 2 cents worth:good!:

 

[WA_Vol]

At one point I wanted to be a college football coach. I was acquaintances with a few guys in the profession and it seemed like a great job. Now I know I would never want that job and most of the people on here who second guess the coaches would not either.

Dooley is going to make 7 figures with possibly a losing season. Not many people can fail at their job and make 7 figures. His coordinators make around 200k thats well paid by most standards and to do something most of us do for free: watch game film.

Cutcliffe didn't play college ball, but his players respected him.

 

[utfan089]

Pretty good post MHF.

 

[volger]

I hate kids, Im sure there are a few good ones out there. Those that are I doubt are football players. So HC on the collegiate level would be tough. Good OP though.

 

[nyvol56]

Cutcliffe didn't play college ball, but his players respected him.

Yes he did University of Alabama.
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