The Section 103 Postgame Report - Belmont

[TennNC]

Originally Posted by BigPapaVol

Why is it a surprise? I like the hell out of Chris Lofton, but I'm never going to argue for his as a great pro prospect. He, like JW, had a skill that made him a dominant collegiate offensive player.
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I've not seen you bash Lofton's efforts on either end of the floor. I can't imagine you'd penalize a guy for physical shortcomings (lack of size, lateral quickness, etc.). Lofton always gave the effort, even if he had some shortcomings relative to NBA aspirations.

Sounds like you believed JWill had all the physical skills but just didn't give the effort. Or maybe he lacked heart, which was his handicap. Just seems like that would really frustrate you, no?

[hatvol96]

Originally Posted by TennNC

I was reminiscing about how enjoyable it was watching him play college basketball. I didn't realize he had anything to do with the chances of Jay Williams becoming a good NBA player.

Let me say this, too - yes, I enjoy watching ACC basketball. I certainly don't have an inferiority complex toward the league b/c the team I grew up watching plays in a crappy, inferior conference. I think it's actually okay (meaning, not a crime, or an embarrassment) to appreciate the rivalries, close contests, and talent that league produces year in and year out. Nor does it mean that, by default, I have to bash every other league, including the SEC.

Seeing as I'm emotionally divested from the ACC, I am amused by your attempts to undermine it whenever you get the chance - there's some background story there that could be interesting. Maybe not.

But if you'd like to play that game, I'll gladly take that league's performance over any other during my lifetime (34 years today, in fact), including the cancerous Big East. You name the metrics; I'll follow suit.

-NBA draft picks?
-NBA all-stars?
-National Championships?
-Final Fours?
-Wins?

You're the one who was dense enough to talk about Williams' college career in a discussion about why a team had to be mentally deficient to use the second pick in the draft on him. I just used another ACC icon to show how utterly devoid of relevance that is.
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[TennNC]

Originally Posted by hatvol96

You're the one who was dense enough to talk about Williams' college career in a discussion about why a team had to be mentally deficient to use the second pick in the draft on him. I just used another ACC icon to show how utterly devoid of relevance that is.
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If college performance is not an indicator of NBA performance, then why do NBA scouts attend college games?

[BigPapaVol]

Originally Posted by TennNC

so you loved that one aspect of his game, but as for the rest, you didn't care for him at all, correct?

that seems more appropriate given your other post.

Second sentence confused me. First one: yes, I liked him as a player at Duke but didn't think he was going to be a beast at the next level. He overpowered people at Duke and loved that style game. He pressured defenses and made his team better offensively all the time. Defense, not so much.
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[hatvol96]

Originally Posted by TennNC

I was reminiscing about how enjoyable it was watching him play college basketball. I didn't realize he had anything to do with the chances of Jay Williams becoming a good NBA player.

Let me say this, too - yes, I enjoy watching ACC basketball. I certainly don't have an inferiority complex toward the league b/c the team I grew up watching plays in a crappy, inferior conference. I think it's actually okay (meaning, not a crime, or an embarrassment) to appreciate the rivalries, close contests, and talent that league produces year in and year out. Nor does it mean that, by default, I have to bash every other league, including the SEC.

Seeing as I'm emotionally divested from the ACC, I am amused by your attempts to undermine it whenever you get the chance - there's some background story there that could be interesting. Maybe not.

But if you'd like to play that game, I'll gladly take that league's performance over any other during my lifetime (34 years today, in fact), including the cancerous Big East. You name the metrics; I'll follow suit.

-NBA draft picks?
-NBA all-stars?
-National Championships?
-Final Fours?
-Wins?

Considering the Big East hasn't been a conference for 34 years, that's a good way to get a head start.
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[BigPapaVol]

Originally Posted by TennNC

I've not seen you bash Lofton's efforts on either end of the floor. I can't imagine you'd penalize a guy for physical shortcomings (lack of size, lateral quickness, etc.). Lofton always gave the effort, even if he had some shortcomings relative to NBA aspirations.

Sounds like you believed JWill had all the physical skills but just didn't give the effort. Or maybe he lacked heart, which was his handicap. Just seems like that would really frustrate you, no?

I regularly blistered Lofton for his defense.

I think Williams had the physical skills but not the focus to play d. It was frustrating and it eventually doomed them, but he generally overcamevtye problem by making them so dominant offensively. It was only a problem against the best teams and he could still almost overcome it.

Bottom line, as a Duke fan, he was fun as hell to watch because he was physically dominant.
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[TennNC]

Originally Posted by hatvol96

Considering the Big East hasn't been a conference for 34 years, that's a good way to get a head start.
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okay - I was angling for a happy birthday wish, but we'll start whenever you'd like - 1979? 1990?

And listen, I hate the Florida Gators, New York Yankees, New England Patriots, and Duke Blue Devils, but I have to recognize that those teams all know how to do one thing really well - win.

know what I mean?

[hatvol96]

Originally Posted by TennNC

If college performance is not an indicator of NBA performance, then why do NBA scouts attend college games?

That's now the mandated level guys will play at before the NBA. You can certainly get an indication of a player's ability. However, as the fact multiple people on here kept trying to pass Chris Lofton off as NBA material despite being tols by those of us on this board who actually watch the league that he had zero shot indicates, college success is much less a predictor than a guy's physical skills and competitive nature.
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[BigPapaVol]

Originally Posted by TennNC

okay - I was angling for a happy birthday wish, but we'll start whenever you'd like - 1979? 1990?

And listen, I hate the Florida Gators, New York Yankees, New England Patriots, and Duke Blue Devils, but I have to recognize that those teams all know how to do one thing really well - win.

know what I mean?

You hate Duke, yet they are an enormous piece of why you find the triangle such a college hoops Mecca. How does that work?
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[kidbourbon]

A couple things:
1) BPV and JZV: Form your own opinions, or at least try. If I wanted to hear Hat's opinion twice, I would simply re-read his posts
2) I'm backing TennNC in the Jay Williams debate. History backs us up. Here goes.
Points guards drafted in the top ten over the last ten years:

2008: Derrick Rose; Russell Westbrook; DJ Augustin (OJ Mayo listed as SG)
2007: Mike Conley
2006: Brandon Roy; Randy Foye
2005: Deron Williams; Chris Paul; Raymond Felton
2004: Ben Gordon; Shaun Livingston; Devin Harris
2003: Kirk Hinrich; TJ Ford
2002: Jay Williams; Dajuan Wagner
2001: None
2000: Jamal Crawford
1999: Steve Francis; Baron Davis; Andre Miller; Jason Terry
1998: Mike Bibby; Jason Williams

The NBA scouts are obviously pretty good at sizing up point guards and tweener shooting guards -- way more often than not, they get it right. The NBA scouts thought highly enough of Jay Williams to draft him #2 overall. Thus, it is way more likely that Jay Williams would have been a very good NBA point guard than a bust.

That's my conclusion. Feel free to form your own. Or if you're BPV or JZV, wait until Hat forms an opinion of his own, and then simply restate that opinion.

[hatvol96]

Originally Posted by TennNC

okay - I was angling for a happy birthday wish, but we'll start whenever you'd like - 1979? 1990?

And listen, I hate the Florida Gators, New York Yankees, New England Patriots, and Duke Blue Devils, but I have to recognize that those teams all know how to do one thing really well - win.

know what I mean?

Let's go with the last 15 and see how the ACC stacks up.
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[hatvol96]

Originally Posted by kidbourbon

A couple things:
1) BPV and JZV: Form your own opinions, or at least try. If I wanted to hear Hat's opinion twice, I would simply re-read his posts
2) I'm backing TennNC in the Jay Williams debate. History backs us up. Here goes.
Points guards drafted in the top ten over the last ten years:

2008: Derrick Rose; Russell Westbrook; DJ Augustin (OJ Mayo listed as SG)
2007: Mike Conley
2006: Brandon Roy; Randy Foye
2005: Deron Williams; Chris Paul; Raymond Felton
2004: Ben Gordon; Shaun Livingston; Devin Harris
2003: Kirk Hinrich; TJ Ford
2002: Jay Williams; Dajuan Wagner
2001: None
2000: Jamal Crawford
1999: Steve Francis; Baron Davis; Andre Miller; Jason Terry
1998: Mike Bibby; Jason Williams

The NBA scouts are obviously pretty good at sizing up point guards and tweener shooting guards -- way more often than not, they get it right. The NBA scouts thought highly enough of Jay Williams to draft him #2 overall. Thus, it is way more likely that Jay Williams would have been a very good NBA point guard than a bust.

That's my conclusion. Feel free to form your own. Or if you're BPV or JZV, wait until Hat forms an opinion of his own, and then simply restate that opinion.

Yeah, because they nailed that other 2002 pick. He was the second pick in a wretched draft.
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[kidbourbon]

Originally Posted by hatvol96

Yeah, because they nailed that other 2002 pick. He was the second pick in a wretched draft.
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exception, meet rule.

[hatvol96]

Originally Posted by kidbourbon

A couple things:
1) BPV and JZV: Form your own opinions, or at least try. If I wanted to hear Hat's opinion twice, I would simply re-read his posts
2) I'm backing TennNC in the Jay Williams debate. History backs us up. Here goes.
Points guards drafted in the top ten over the last ten years:

2008: Derrick Rose; Russell Westbrook; DJ Augustin (OJ Mayo listed as SG)
2007: Mike Conley
2006: Brandon Roy; Randy Foye
2005: Deron Williams; Chris Paul; Raymond Felton
2004: Ben Gordon; Shaun Livingston; Devin Harris
2003: Kirk Hinrich; TJ Ford
2002: Jay Williams; Dajuan Wagner
2001: None
2000: Jamal Crawford
1999: Steve Francis; Baron Davis; Andre Miller; Jason Terry
1998: Mike Bibby; Jason Williams

The NBA scouts are obviously pretty good at sizing up point guards and tweener shooting guards -- way more often than not, they get it right. The NBA scouts thought highly enough of Jay Williams to draft him #2 overall. Thus, it is way more likely that Jay Williams would have been a very good NBA point guard than a bust.

That's my conclusion. Feel free to form your own. Or if you're BPV or JZV, wait until Hat forms an opinion of his own, and then simply restate that opinion.

Compare the rookie numbers of the guys on that list who are actually worth a damn to those of Jay Williams. It will be instructive.
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[hatvol96]

Originally Posted by kidbourbon

exception, meet rule.

You've got multiple guys on your "list" who play little or no time at the point. Probably better to know the "rule" is before you start deciding what the exceptions are.
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