Tempo:Pearl vs Martin vs Tyndall

[volholio]

Here are all the stats since 2003:

Ranking: Coach: Offense (O Ranking) Defense (D Ranking) Tempo (T Ranking)




2003:

48: CBP: 106.8 (64) 94.9 (41) 73.0 (22)

2004:

67: CBP: 109.5 (44) 100.0 (131) 72.3 (23)

2005:

32: CBP: 109.2 (49) 95.4 (44) 70.2 (50)


2006:

16: CBP: 116.1 (7) 97.5 (84) 72.4 (16)


2007:

27: CBP: 113.8 (22) 96.8 (56) 72.0 (22)
288: CDT: 95.9 (270) 108.9 (284) 64.3 (264)

2008

13: CBP: 113.9 (15) 94.0 (30) 72.5 (18)
291: CDT: 93.8 (298)106.0 (239) 64.0 (280)


2009:

38: CBP: 113.4 (19) 98.9 (104) 68.7 (76)
204:CCM: 97.5 (237) 101.2 (159) 63.6 (280)
142 CDT: 100.6 (187) 99.9 (131) 66.1 (177)


2010

26: CBP: 107.4 (70) 91.3 (15) 68.7 (96)
72: CCM: 110.3 (38) 100.5 (146) 65.5 (250)
99: CDT: 104.5 (116) 98.0 (93) 65.8 (240)


2011:

63: CBP: 105.0 (101) 95.0 (42) 67.3 (135)
71: CCM: 111.6 (31) 102.2 (171) 63.5 (309)
83: CDT: 103.8 (117) 97.4 (73) 64.5 (274)


2012:

58: CCM (UT): 104.0 (114) 93.7 (30) 65.6 (194)
183: CDT: 98.6 (220) 101.0 (158) 61.0 (331)

2013:

75: CCM: 107.3 (63) 98.7 (122) 63.6 (274)
66: CDT (USM): 108.3 (47) 98.6 (115) 64.8 (224)

2014:

7: CCM: 116.3 (17) 94.8 (19) 62.9 (323)
56: CDT: 110.4 (65) 99.9 (73) 64.7 (258)

If 2014 Vols played 2008 Vols, 14 would win 54.4% of the time with a score of 74-73.

Conclusions?

1) 2014 Vols is the best UT team any of us has seen and the most unlucky by far. It was also the slowest by far, but the third most efficient offensively and second most efficient defensively. It's the best team we've had in our lifetime because it did both offense and defensive very well (very efficiently).

2) CDT's teams do not play fast, up-tempo basketball. His fastest team was ranked 177th in the country. Pearl's slowest team was ranked 135. (Pearl's teams definitely slowed down the last three years). But Pearl's stats are a great control. No question CDT plays SLOW.



:salute:

 

[7thgroupvolfan]

Well, he is our coach so stfu.

 

[volholio]

Well, he is our coach so stfu.

Thanks for the input, but I didn't put a value judgment on CDT. I just said he played slow. Everyone keeps saying he plays "exciting, up-tempo" basketball.

Maybe his basketball is exciting. It is not up-tempo, however. Unless he radically changes his style. :rock:

 

[amazingGRACE]

Too many numbers.

 

[VolArmy74]

They can put that "luck" stat up as much as they wish. But there's no such thing as luck. The games we lost we generally weren't playing at the very high level we played at in the games we won. Unfortunately, that was about 40% of the time.

 

[volholio]

Too many numbers.

Well, Data has a bunch of numbers, I'm afraid.

We can go by numbers or we can go by gut or what we hope.

I love playing poker with guys who play by gut and with hope. :thumbsup:

 

[volholio]

They can put that "luck" stat up as much as they wish. But there's no such thing as luck. The games we lost we generally weren't playing at the very high level we played at in the games we won. Unfortunately, that was about 40% of the time.

Again, that's fine. The the idea is that a team over the course of the year that plays with the offensive efficiency and defensive efficiency that Tennessee did will usually not lose as many games as they did. So how do you explain it?

1) L, 67-63 (@Xavier)
2) L, 78-70
3) L, 70-61 (to undefeated team)
4) L, 65-58
5) L, 57-56
6) L, 74-66 (@Lexington)
7) L, 67-41 (@gainesville)
8) L, 64-60
9) L, 67-58 (Florida)
10) L, 75-70
11) L, 68-65 (OT)
12) L, 56-49 (Florida)

So 12 losses and 5 of those were to final 8 or final 4 teams. I think everybody would say those were reasonable losses and UT was in on 3 of those games (@WSU, @UK, SEC/UF).

So that leaves 7 losses. 2 of those were total flukes where everything that could totally go wrong went wrong. They were in on all the others.

However, they beat the Hell out of Virginia and several other teams. So when you lose close and win big, that factors into "luck." Most teams close losses balance out. UT's didn't this year. Our guts can tell us whatever we want to believe, but the math is the math.

However, My OP doesn't have a "luck" stat and it wasn't even the point. The point of it is to match up TEMPO with Pearl vs Martin vs Tyndall to see what the truth is there.

And the truth is is that Tyndall Ball is slow ball.

Period.

eace2:

 

[VolArmy74]

Again, that's fine. The the idea is that a team over the course of the year that plays with the offensive efficiency and defensive efficiency that Tennessee did will usually not lose as many games as they did. So how do you explain it?

1) L, 67-63 (@Xavier)
2) L, 78-70
3) L, 70-61 (to undefeated team)
4) L, 65-58
5) L, 57-56
6) L, 74-66 (@Lexington)
7) L, 67-41 (@gainesville)
8) L, 64-60
9) L, 67-58 (Florida)
10) L, 75-70
11) L, 68-65 (OT)
12) L, 56-49 (Florida)

So 12 losses and 5 of those were to final 8 or final 4 teams. I think everybody would say those were reasonable losses and UT was in on 3 of those games (@WSU, @UK, SEC/UF).

So that leaves 7 losses. 2 of those were total flukes where everything that could totally go wrong went wrong. They were in on all the others.

However, they beat the Hell out of Virginia and several other teams. So when you lose close and win big, that factors into "luck." Most teams close losses balance out. UT's didn't this year. Our guts can tell us whatever we want to believe, but the math is the math.

However, My OP doesn't have a "luck" stat and it wasn't even the point. The point of it is to match up TEMPO with Pearl vs Martin vs Tyndall to see what the truth is there.

And the truth is is that Tyndall Ball is slow ball.

Period.

eace2:

You are the one who claimed this team was "unlucky". What actually happens is that the team didn't give it's best effort on a game to game basis. That's why they lost the games they did. Not because of "luck".

Yes, we blew out Virginia, who was rated higher than us in Ken Pom.

We lost to Kentucky, who was rated lower.

Did we get lucky vs Virginia and did Kentucky get lucky vs us?

As for Tyndall's pace, even though it's slow, it's faster than Zo. Still, I have no problem with the pace, because the fastest teams for the most part, were bad.

It's fun to watch a fast team, and when they get rolling like some of Pearls teams, or even more so, 40 minutes of hell Arkansas and Vegas, they can be dominating.

I just like a coach that wins games. In his career, Tyndall does that.

 

[volholio]

OK: Here's the simplified chart with only the tempo ratings (the last third of the chart in OP):

2003

CBP: 73.0 (22)

2004
CBP: 72.3 (23)

2005

CBP: 70.2 (50)

2006
CBP :72.4 (16)

2007
CBP: 72.0 (22)
CDT: 64.3 (264)

2008

CBP: 72.5 (18)
CDT: 64.0 (280)

2009

CBP: 68.7 (76)
CCM: 63.6 (280)
CDT: 66.1 (177)

2010
CBP: 68.7 (96)
CCM: 65.5 (250)
CDT: 65.8 (240)

2011
CBP: 67.3 (135)
CCM: 63.5 (309)
CDT: 64.5 (274)

2012
CCM: 65.6 (194)
CDT: 61.0 (331)

2013
CCM: 63.6 (274)
CDT: 64.8 (224)

2014
CCM: 62.9 (323)
CDT: 64.7 (258)


CDT highest ranking? 177
CCM highest ranking? 194
CBP highest ranking? 16

CBP slowest team was faster than CDT or CCM's fastest team.

 

[Insunseri]

Well, I like what you did. Good work

 

[volholio]

You are the one who claimed this team was "unlucky". What actually happens is that the team didn't give it's best effort on a game to game basis. That's why they lost the games they did. Not because of "luck".

Yes, we blew out Virginia, who was rated higher than us in Ken Pom.

We lost to Kentucky, who was rated lower.

Did we get lucky vs Virginia and did Kentucky get lucky vs us?

As for Tyndall's pace, even though it's slow, it's faster than Zo. Still, I have no problem with the pace, because the fastest teams for the most part, were bad.

It's fun to watch a fast team, and when they get rolling like some of Pearls teams, or even more so, 40 minutes of hell Arkansas and Vegas, they can be dominating.

I just like a coach that wins games. In his career, Tyndall does that.

No: We didn't get lucky against VA. You don't win by 35 and get lucky.

But if you lose a bunch of games by single digits or on last second shots, you get unlucky.

Here's how Kenpom puts it:

"It's unfair to judge Tennessee solely as the team that crushed Virginia at the end of December. That's just one piece of a very complicated puzzle. But the Vols' very best has been very good. In addition to the rout against Virginia, they've beaten 12th-seeded Xavier on a neutral floor by 15.

But they've also lost at Xavier by four. And the Xavier games are a fine example of what Tennessee does. When the Vols lose, it's typically close; when they win, they just can't help but win easily. And it's not like they're intentionally running up the score by turning a late 10-point margin into 30.

They punch teams in the mouth and walk away. In the first 10 minutes of games against SEC teams, they outscored their opponents by an average of 5.3 points. In the first 10 minutes of their 12 SEC victories, they outscored opponents by an average of 8.8 points.

By contrast, SEC juggernaut Florida, which won each of its 21 games against conference teams, outscored opponents by a less-impressive 3.5 points per game in the first 10 minutes. No one can say the Volunteers need to play with more urgency. They are as ready to go from the opening tip as any team in the country.

But somehow they've lost eight games to SEC teams, and most of those have been close—the types of games in which one or two plays could have changed the outcome. Sure they were handled decisively by Florida in Gainesville and by Kentucky in Lexington. But they were also beaten by Texas A&M on a last-second three-point shot by a guy, Antwan Space, who made 24 percent of his threes all season. They lost at Texas A&M in February on a last-second three-pointer by the same 24 percent shooter. This after Tennessee's Jarnell Stokes missed a free throw with less than a second remaining in regulation that would have won it.

There are other sob stories, like when Jordan McRae's potential game-tying three-pointer came up short at Missouri, or when Jeronne Maymon took a technical foul with 4:39 to go against Florida last week, turning a two-point deficit into four and fouling himself out of the game in the process. Tennessee's late-game performance has generally been ugly.

We should give equal time to the cases where Tennessee has benefited from good fortune and won close games. But just three of its 21 wins were by single digits, the closest call coming against Arkansas, which led by eight with 11 minutes left before the Vols closed strong for a seven-point win.

Tennessee's average scoring margin against conference opponents was just a shade under eight points per game, a value which you would normally associate with a team that won 15 or 16 of 20 games instead of 12. There's some reason to think that if we had more time with Tennessee, we would see a team that is obviously the SEC's third-best team, and not far from being its second-best.

However, our time with the Vols may be short. If the oddsmakers are correct, their season has a good chance of ending in an opening-round game tonight against similarly underseeded Iowa. A loss would end one of the more eccentric seasons turned in by any team in the country. If we had a different snapshot of 20 games, I'm guessing Tennessee's record would have more closely matched its scoring-based metrics.

The Vols are not the Miami Heat of college basketball, but they're significantly better than their record would indicate. The deceptively limited season of this sport is why a team that's probably one of the country's 25 best can be seeded like it's not in the top 40."

 

[VolArmy74]

No: We didn't get lucky against VA. You don't win by 35 and get lucky.

But if you lose a bunch of games by single digits or on last second shots, you get unlucky.

Here's how Kenpom puts it:

"It's unfair to judge Tennessee solely as the team that crushed Virginia at the end of December. That's just one piece of a very complicated puzzle. But the Vols' very best has been very good. In addition to the rout against Virginia, they've beaten 12th-seeded Xavier on a neutral floor by 15.

But they've also lost at Xavier by four. And the Xavier games are a fine example of what Tennessee does. When the Vols lose, it's typically close; when they win, they just can't help but win easily. And it's not like they're intentionally running up the score by turning a late 10-point margin into 30.

They punch teams in the mouth and walk away. In the first 10 minutes of games against SEC teams, they outscored their opponents by an average of 5.3 points. In the first 10 minutes of their 12 SEC victories, they outscored opponents by an average of 8.8 points.

By contrast, SEC juggernaut Florida, which won each of its 21 games against conference teams, outscored opponents by a less-impressive 3.5 points per game in the first 10 minutes. No one can say the Volunteers need to play with more urgency. They are as ready to go from the opening tip as any team in the country.

But somehow they've lost eight games to SEC teams, and most of those have been close—the types of games in which one or two plays could have changed the outcome. Sure they were handled decisively by Florida in Gainesville and by Kentucky in Lexington. But they were also beaten by Texas A&M on a last-second three-point shot by a guy, Antwan Space, who made 24 percent of his threes all season. They lost at Texas A&M in February on a last-second three-pointer by the same 24 percent shooter. This after Tennessee's Jarnell Stokes missed a free throw with less than a second remaining in regulation that would have won it.

There are other sob stories, like when Jordan McRae's potential game-tying three-pointer came up short at Missouri, or when Jeronne Maymon took a technical foul with 4:39 to go against Florida last week, turning a two-point deficit into four and fouling himself out of the game in the process. Tennessee's late-game performance has generally been ugly.

We should give equal time to the cases where Tennessee has benefited from good fortune and won close games. But just three of its 21 wins were by single digits, the closest call coming against Arkansas, which led by eight with 11 minutes left before the Vols closed strong for a seven-point win.

Tennessee's average scoring margin against conference opponents was just a shade under eight points per game, a value which you would normally associate with a team that won 15 or 16 of 20 games instead of 12. There's some reason to think that if we had more time with Tennessee, we would see a team that is obviously the SEC's third-best team, and not far from being its second-best.

However, our time with the Vols may be short. If the oddsmakers are correct, their season has a good chance of ending in an opening-round game tonight against similarly underseeded Iowa. A loss would end one of the more eccentric seasons turned in by any team in the country. If we had a different snapshot of 20 games, I'm guessing Tennessee's record would have more closely matched its scoring-based metrics.

The Vols are not the Miami Heat of college basketball, but they're significantly better than their record would indicate. The deceptively limited season of this sport is why a team that's probably one of the country's 25 best can be seeded like it's not in the top 40."

I know what happened in the games, the point being, if we played like we were capable of playing, Texas A&M is down by 10+ points in both games and we smoke Vandy and UTEP. It wasn't luck, because there's no such thing as luck in regards to it being some kind of controlling force that can change the outcome of a sporting event, it was effort or lack thereof.

 

[volholio]

I know what happened in the games, the point being, if we played like we were capable of playing, Texas A&M is down by 10+ points in both games and we smoke Vandy and UTEP. It wasn't luck, because there's no such thing as luck in regards to it being some kind of controlling force that can change the outcome of a sporting event, it was effort or lack thereof.

Look. You're gonna believe what you want to believe. That's completely fine. Most Val fans were looking at the negative because that's where they wanted to look. If Bruce had made this run to the final 16, we'd've gone ape. But for Cuonzo--because fans personally didn't like him--it was all "he backed in and had an easy run and yada yada yada."

Whatever.

But you're talking four games. And in those games, they could've gone either way. Do you want them to be supermen? Jarnell had a free throw to win on the road. He missed it. A 28% three point shooter knocked down a three.

It happens.

They beat UVA by 35. Nobody cares. THey beat UK by historic porportions last year. Nobody cares. They beat a fine Xavier team by 14 on neutral court. Nobody cares. They got the sweet 16, nobody cares. THe coach leaves. Fans are happy. New coach says we'll be lucky to go 500 next year. Fans are excited.

Whatever.

You all got what you wanted. A coach who will kiss your asses, buy some pizzas, dance around, everyone thinks he plays up tempo, who cares if he actually does or not, but they'll believe he does, and they'll give him 5 years to be mediocre as long as he tells him how great they are.

Everybody loves Butch, but he's not done jack except coach the worst game I've ever seen in UT football which was that Florida game this year and that Oregon game this year. Yeah, he had one big win and blah blah blah, he rah rah rahs so we love him.

Whatever.

We fired the fat boring guy and the last seven years have been just rosy as hell.

Whatever.

Just remember. Tyndall may or may not win here and it may or may not take a long time, but mark you this:

He does not play up tempo ball.:rock:

 

[beamerman]

Look. You're gonna believe what you want to believe. That's completely fine. Most Val fans were looking at the negative because that's where they wanted to look. If Bruce had made this run to the final 16, we'd've gone ape. But for Cuonzo--because fans personally didn't like him--it was all "he backed in and had an easy run and yada yada yada."

Whatever.

But you're talking four games. And in those games, they could've gone either way. Do you want them to be supermen? Jarnell had a free throw to win on the road. He missed it. A 28% three point shooter knocked down a three.

It happens.

They beat UVA by 35. Nobody cares. THey beat UK by historic porportions last year. Nobody cares. They beat a fine Xavier team by 14 on neutral court. Nobody cares. They got the sweet 16, nobody cares. THe coach leaves. Fans are happy. New coach says we'll be lucky to go 500 next year. Fans are excited.

Whatever.

You all got what you wanted. A coach who will kiss your asses, buy some pizzas, dance around, everyone thinks he plays up tempo, who cares if he actually does or not, but they'll believe he does, and they'll give him 5 years to be mediocre as long as he tells him how great they are.

Everybody loves Butch, but he's not done jack except coach the worst game I've ever seen in UT football which was that Florida game this year and that Oregon game this year. Yeah, he had one big win and blah blah blah, he rah rah rahs so we love him.

Whatever.

We fired the fat boring guy and the last seven years have been just rosy as hell.

Whatever.

Just remember. Tyndall may or may not win here and it may or may not take a long time, but mark you this:

He does not play up tempo ball.:rock:

I'm not going to try to change your opinion of Martin which seems to be a LOT higher than mine. I am glad he is gone, I am not convinced he is more than average, he did not want to be here and I am ready to give our new guy my support as I did the last one for awhile. Martin lost me during the Memphis game when he couldn't read the tempo needed to compete. In the second half we were fun to watch and almost made it all the way back and I left the arena satisfied that he had finally figured out he had race horses, not plow horses. I was wrong. Tn was unlucky in those close games as you say, but lucky to make the tourney and in that run. If you talk about luck one way you have to talk about it the other. Did I say I am glad he is gone? Go Big Orange. By the way, we have sucked in football but it was time for Phil to go.

 

[Recoil]

Are you sure you aren't reviewing offensive and defensive efficiency metrics?

If so, those aren't necessarily the best indicator of pace of play, but rather the optimization of each owned possession.

To say Tyndall's pace won't be uptempo might be a bit misleading. You simply can't run a full court press for 40 minutes and play a slow style.

However, even though they are moving quickly, Tyndall's teams haven't seemed to maximize possessions (ie efficiency).

Pace will be dramatically quicker, just not as efficient. As a loose analogy, think Alabama football power run game (CCM) vs Texas A&M (CDT) helter skelter.

 

[Spartacavolus]

2014 is the best team we have seen by far because they went on a winning streak against .500 teams in theast 1/3rd of the season? The team that was on the bubble, was 15-11 at one point and lost 13 games?
Some of you need to get out of the stat book and watch some basketball. One of the "greatest teams" we have ever seen avgd 49 pts in 3 Florida losses while 30 other teams scored more than 50 against UF this year.

 

[Smokeybluetick]

Here are all the stats since 2003:

Ranking: Coach: Offense (O Ranking) Defense (D Ranking) Tempo (T Ranking)




2003:

48: CBP: 106.8 (64) 94.9 (41) 73.0 (22)

2004:

67: CBP: 109.5 (44) 100.0 (131) 72.3 (23)

2005:

32: CBP: 109.2 (49) 95.4 (44) 70.2 (50)


2006:

16: CBP: 116.1 (7) 97.5 (84) 72.4 (16)


2007:

27: CBP: 113.8 (22) 96.8 (56) 72.0 (22)
288: CDT: 95.9 (270) 108.9 (284) 64.3 (264)

2008

13: CBP: 113.9 (15) 94.0 (30) 72.5 (18)
291: CDT: 93.8 (298)106.0 (239) 64.0 (280)


2009:

38: CBP: 113.4 (19) 98.9 (104) 68.7 (76)
204:CCM: 97.5 (237) 101.2 (159) 63.6 (280)
142 CDT: 100.6 (187) 99.9 (131) 66.1 (177)


2010

26: CBP: 107.4 (70) 91.3 (15) 68.7 (96)
72: CCM: 110.3 (38) 100.5 (146) 65.5 (250)
99: CDT: 104.5 (116) 98.0 (93) 65.8 (240)


2011:

63: CBP: 105.0 (101) 95.0 (42) 67.3 (135)
71: CCM: 111.6 (31) 102.2 (171) 63.5 (309)
83: CDT: 103.8 (117) 97.4 (73) 64.5 (274)


2012:

58: CCM (UT): 104.0 (114) 93.7 (30) 65.6 (194)
183: CDT: 98.6 (220) 101.0 (158) 61.0 (331)

2013:

75: CCM: 107.3 (63) 98.7 (122) 63.6 (274)
66: CDT (USM): 108.3 (47) 98.6 (115) 64.8 (224)

2014:

7: CCM: 116.3 (17) 94.8 (19) 62.9 (323)
56: CDT: 110.4 (65) 99.9 (73) 64.7 (258)

If 2014 Vols played 2008 Vols, 14 would win 54.4% of the time with a score of 74-73.

Conclusions?

1) 2014 Vols is the best UT team any of us has seen and the most unlucky by far. It was also the slowest by far, but the third most efficient offensively and second most efficient defensively. It's the best team we've had in our lifetime because it did both offense and defensive very well (very efficiently).

2) CDT's teams do not play fast, up-tempo basketball. His fastest team was ranked 177th in the country. Pearl's slowest team was ranked 135. (Pearl's teams definitely slowed down the last three years). But Pearl's stats are a great control. No question CDT plays SLOW.



:salute:

Blah Blah Blah!

You forgot wins and losses Einstein,the only thing that really matters.

cbp 462- 145

cdt 206-106 (.654)

ccm 124- 82 (.602) with his time at UT included.

Pearl obviously the better record, with Tyndall second.

all quality coaches. Tyndall's coaching style will be more to the liking of UT's fanbase. Stop trying to find ways to degrade the present coach and give him a f------ chance to prove himself. You were probably one of the loudest detractors of CCM, got what you want so stfu or become a freaking barner!!!!!!!!! GOVOLS

 

[Spartacavolus]

The new generation is awesome. Smarter than me in many ways, but the game is played on the court and there are many, many facets of the game. Every second something is happening that can affect the play on the court. From a boxout to a player pulling the string on a shot because his confidence is shot.

It's not a video game.

 

[Volru]

All said and done, you have to have a great half court game to advance in the NCAA tournament. At that level, by that time, well coached teams have drilled enough in breaking the press and are disciplined enough to force you into a half court game.

You need the opponent to miss shots if you plan to push the tempo on offense, and you need to make your own shots to set up the press on defense. It's great defensive play and efficient execution of your offense half court that gives you a chance to win every game.

 

[Spartacavolus]

coaching well and having players that know how to ball wins games. Simple as that. Doesn't really matter how you do it. UConn did it by having 2 badass guards that went one on one and couldn't be stopped. The halfcourt offense was give it to your pg, give him a pick and everybody get out of the way.

 

[patrick]

eilte 8 means more

 

[utvolkyle06]

When I joined Volnation, I was told there would be no math.

 

[Sudden Impact]

The stat I would like to see is last 5 minutes +|- 5 pts W|L record for these coaches. Pearl was very good, Martin's very bad, Tyndalls unknown.

Anybody have a clue where to find this stat.

 

[Spartacavolus]

The stat I would like to see is last 5 minutes +|- 5 pts W|L record for these coaches. Pearl was very good, Martin's very bad, Tyndalls unknown.

Anybody have a clue where to find this stat.

if I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I'd think Tyndall's is pretty good and Martin's isn't.

And for another jmo, most of the stat guys here are Martin fans so I don't know that they would provide the stat if it showed Martin in a bad light.

just guessing on both, by the way.
But I am a good guesser.

 

[Volfan2012]

CDT teams work for a shot they just don't throw up a three on a whim. A lot of screening and getting to the open guy will slow down the offense.