Why so bad in baseball so long?

#1
AllVolinGA

AllVolinGA

VOL by birth
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#1
I know about Raleigh. But I am talking about pre Delmonico Tennessee baseball. I was looking at our overall record against the other SEC schools and it is really not very good. Why were we a bad baseball program after the 1951 runner up year?
 
#5
#5
Gramps said:
Simple answer: coaching
Click to expand...

This.

The reasons why relates to Hamilton, Dickey, etc. for many years as being responsible for the condition of the program. Money generating sports are more important to the UTAD. They did not see a way to make money at baseball. Of course, schools like LSU do with their sell out attendance and 10,000 seats. Which demonstrates a gross lack of vision by the AD's through the years. Give Vol fans a nationally competitive program and they attend games big time. How they cannot see that is beyond me. This is the same school that sells out a 20,000+ arena for women's basketball games. That should have been a clue.

Cronin hired Serrano - but it was after Hamilton recommended it. He interviewed for the job when Delmonico was fired. From the reports I read back then Hamilton went with Raleigh because Serrano did not have a college degree from an accredited school, which the job description required. The same job description they amended 4 years later when Raleigh was fired. Go figure.

East and central TN are hotbeds for HS and juco baseball talent. The college baseball world is well aware of it and major programs have snapped up local talent for years. That started changing when CDS arrived. Everybody in the business including MLB knows how good CDS and staff are at what they do. We are very fortunate he wanted to be here. If it keeps going well look for LNS to be expanded and for the UTAD to eventually figure out they can make money at it if they promote it more.
 
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#7
#7
In fairness to Raleigh, he did inherit an academic mess and reduction in scholarships from Delmonico.

That said, he might have been the worst baseball man I've ever met.

In reference to East and Middle Tennessee being hotbeds of recruiting... That is a recent phenomena (last 10 years or so).

Historically, the best baseball in the state came out of Germantown, Christian Bros, MUS, and Houston in the West, Oakland in the Mid-State, and DB and Science Hill from upper East Tennessee.

Farragut's reign of terror didn't begin until the early 2000s.
 
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#8
#8
The noticable increase in effective coaching/training has helped the local Tennessee kids in every sport over the last 10 years. When you add in the population influx from out of state, the high school talent has has been improving around here for awhile. Couldn't come at a better time for us either. We need it.
 
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#9
#9
I think the original poster was wanting answers for our historical mediocrity in baseball.

IMO:

1. Weather, most of the traditional baseball powerhouses are teams that play in places that are warmer in February.

2. Baseball has been an afterthought at Tennessee for much of our history. UT worships the god of Southern college football.

3. Coaching (which relates to the previous reason). 24 Coaches overall and no NCAA appearances between 1951 and 1993 tell you that finding a proven winner hasn't been a huge priority. Example, M. B. Banks, Zora Clevenger, and George Cafego were primarily football coaches.
 
#11
#11
None of the SEC schools really cared about baseball for most of their history.

Assistant football coaches at most schools received supplemental pay for coaching other sports with baseball offering the most presitige and money. Some schools put football players on scholarships in other sports just to increase football roster.

Alabama won the most SEC titles during these dark ages and this wasn't out of real effort.

Mississippi State changed this soemwhat in the early 80s as they stared drawing large crowds and making it more visible. LSU took this to new levels. UGA won a national title in 1990 on the back of two pitchers basically and no one in Athens really cared.

LSU started making some really money and winning national titles and everyone esle took notice. Relatively speaking, it did not take much money or effort to show baseball some love. Stadiums are still relatively small. Baseball coaches still make far less than football coaches. Scholarship numbers are kept artificially low.

The baseball arms battles began basically in about 1993-1997. New or improved stadiums were popping up. The quality of coaches greatly improved with some long time coaches who kept their jobs due to low expectations were kicked out. Even Vanderbilt and Ketnucky finally got rid of Mewborne and Keith Madison respectively.

Delmonico came to Tennessee
Andy Lopez came to Florida
Ron Polk "retired" from Miss. State and went to Georgia then back to MSU
South Carolina dropped June Raines for Ray Tanner


And it's not just Tennessee and the SEC that was "bad". Few schools really cared about baseball. USC has the most national titles because they care at least a little bit. Same with Arizona State. At least Miami in the 80s had a little competition to deal with.

The late 90s was the Golden Era. I have seen some slipping since then as I think several schools have scaled back in the post-9/11 economy as the ROI has not been what they had hoped.
 
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#12
#12
The issue with college baseball is coaching, always will be. Simply because, the best talent usually goes the minor league route from high school, leaving a lot of middle of the pack players, and to win, it requires coaching. The other issue is, for this same reason, colleges care much less about baseball than they do Football or Basketball.
 
#13
#13
madbamahater said:
Mike Hamilton. An employee or company is only as good as it's management. Poor management and it trickled down.
Click to expand...

LOL. Hamilton's legendary (or lack thereof) status is growing. He had nothing to do with it before the 2000's. The OP asked why we were historically so bad, even after 1951. I know Hamilton made a bad hire in Raleigh, but....
 
#14
#14
Recoil said:
In fairness to Raleigh, he did inherit an academic mess and reduction in scholarships from Delmonico.

That said, he might have been the worst baseball man I've ever met.

In reference to East and Middle Tennessee being hotbeds of recruiting... That is a recent phenomena (last 10 years or so).

Historically, the best baseball in the state came out of Germantown, Christian Bros, MUS, and Houston in the West, Oakland in the Mid-State, and DB and Science Hill from upper East Tennessee.

Farragut's reign of terror didn't begin until the early 2000s.
Click to expand...

Yes, and I didn't understand why Delmonico didn't make Shelby County a priority. My older brother went to Germantown, and I went to Houston, and both have had solid programs for years. I know that OM, MSU, Bama, and Vandy are closer, but UT still has a strong influence in Shelby County. Delomonico just refused to make us a presence there. If we start winning, Serrano can get players from Germantown, Houston, Collierville, CBHS, MUS, and ECS.
 
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#15
#15
VolGee4 said:
LOL. Hamilton's legendary (or lack thereof) status is growing. He had nothing to do with it before the 2000's. The OP asked why we were historically so bad, even after 1951. I know Hamilton made a bad hire in Raleigh, but....
Click to expand...

We pound on Hamilton so much because of ALL the bad hires he made: Raleigh, Kiffin, Dooley. Heck he even took a National Championship winning track team and turned it into a train wreck. It's true he had nothing to do with the downward slide of baseball since 1951, but if he had been around then i'm sure he would have screwed it up.
 
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#16
#16
fryeguy93 said:
None of the SEC schools really cared about baseball for most of their history.

Assistant football coaches at most schools received supplemental pay for coaching other sports with baseball offering the most presitige and money. Some schools put football players on scholarships in other sports just to increase football roster.

Alabama won the most SEC titles during these dark ages and this wasn't out of real effort.

Mississippi State changed this soemwhat in the early 80s as they stared drawing large crowds and making it more visible. LSU took this to new levels. UGA won a national title in 1990 on the back of two pitchers basically and no one in Athens really cared.

LSU started making some really money and winning national titles and everyone esle took notice. Relatively speaking, it did not take much money or effort to show baseball some love. Stadiums are still relatively small. Baseball coaches still make far less than football coaches. Scholarship numbers are kept artificially low.

The baseball arms battles began basically in about 1993-1997. New or improved stadiums were popping up. The quality of coaches greatly improved with some long time coaches who kept their jobs due to low expectations were kicked out. Even Vanderbilt and Ketnucky finally got rid of Mewborne and Keith Madison respectively.

Delmonico came to Tennessee
Andy Lopez came to Florida
Ron Polk "retired" from Miss. State and went to Georgia then back to MSU
South Carolina dropped June Raines for Ray Tanner


And it's not just Tennessee and the SEC that was "bad". Few schools really cared about baseball. USC has the most national titles because they care at least a little bit. Same with Arizona State. At least Miami in the 80s had a little competition to deal with.

The late 90s was the Golden Era. I have seen some slipping since then as I think several schools have scaled back in the post-9/11 economy as the ROI has not been what they had hoped.
Click to expand...

I think the increased television and internet exposure has helped a lot as well. It hasn't been all that long ago you could hardly ever find a game on TV until ESPN would show the CWS, and now you have weekly regional coverage for SEC baseball and national games on the ESPN networks, not to mention streaming services like Watch ESPN show many games now.

I can still remember the only exposure I had to SEC baseball was I would see the standings in the Tennessean sports page, and that was about it.
 
#18
#18
True about television. Several sports were helped be strikes in hockey and NBA as networks were searching for replacement programming.

NCAA baseball and softball and also poker are three that come to mind.
 
#19
#19
I think one of the reasons for apathy is the oddball schedule college baseball is stuck with. Its hard to get interested when snow is on the ground. About the time most people get interested in baseball, the season ends. In the old days, when for the most part a college year began in the fall and ended in the spring, it was logical. That's no longer true and the main driver of fan interest, television, doesn't take the summer off. I think its time the college baseball season was adjusted to reality. The CWS could make a nice tapering off of summer just before the football season started.
 
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#20
#20
arkyvol said:
I think one of the reasons for apathy is the oddball schedule college baseball is stuck with. Its hard to get interested when snow is on the ground. About the time most people get interested in baseball, the season ends. In the old days, when for the most part a college year began in the fall and ended in the spring, it was logical. That's no longer true and the main driver of fan interest, television, doesn't take the summer off. I think its time the college baseball season was adjusted to reality. The CWS could make a nice tapering off of summer just before the football season started.
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This is an interesting point, but the "college year" still ends in May. I know football is mostly year around now, but the summer work is low key, and the players still get days off. I don't think it would be fair to ask baseball players to perform at a high level in the middle of the summer while still having to attend classes all year. Maybe that is just me.
 
#21
#21
AllVolinGA said:
I know about Raleigh. But I am talking about pre Delmonico Tennessee baseball. I was looking at our overall record against the other SEC schools and it is really not very good. Why were we a bad baseball program after the 1951 runner up year?
Click to expand...

Getting rid of delmanico was a execrable move outdone with Raleigh being hired.
Baseball wasn't a priority so they suffered in the mire until the hire of Serrano was a step back to winning.
Also recruiting not great. Vols had Firepower but with the wrong coach they couldn't prosper.
Duffy, Osborn, Frits, Norfolk, if it was Serrano during this time they prosper with the rest of the team leading to more wins.
 
#22
#22
VolGee4 said:
This is an interesting point, but the "college year" still ends in May. I know football is mostly year around now, but the summer work is low key, and the players still get days off. I don't think it would be fair to ask baseball players to perform at a high level in the middle of the summer while still having to attend classes all year. Maybe that is just me.
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What else are these guys going to be doing in the summer? Remember, at this level, they've made a serious commitment to the game, even those who don't envision a MLB future. I doubt seriously they'd resent a couple of fewer days at the beach.
 
#23
#23
arkyvol said:
What else are these guys going to be doing in the summer? Remember, at this level, they've made a serious commitment to the game, even those who don't envision a MLB future. I doubt seriously they'd resent a couple of fewer days at the beach.
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*The draft would then come in the middle of season.
* Short Season and rookie ball would begin shortly after the draft with colleges still playing ball
* Very traditional summer leagues already wait for some college guys, they can't wait for all of them
* College guys already have to attend to semesters, having them play in summer would require additional scholarship and other money. For a sport that loses money at 99.9 of schools, how many schools would want to play for another semester and training tables?
* WE IN THE SOUTH DON'T CARE THAT THE BIG 10 SUCK IN BASEBALL. Moving the season would only improve this marginally and would likely hurt succesful small schools whose talent would be spread to larger northern schools. East Carolina, Coastal Carolina, Rice, Fullerton, Fla International, Fla. Atlantic, Wake Forest, LA-Lafayette.

The one positive would involve Vanderbilt. A huge hunk of their best players are from north of the Mason-Dixon line. If those guys could go to Big10 or other northern programs and see no drop off in games played, why would they go to Vanderbilt?
 
#24
#24
Recoil said:
Historically, the best baseball in the state came out of Germantown, Christian Bros, MUS, and Houston in the West...
Click to expand...

2 public schools, 2 private schools, all predominantly white, all located in the East Memphis-Shelby County geography.

Telling.
 
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#25
#25
fryeguy93 said:
1. The draft would then come in the middle of season.
2. Short Season and rookie ball would begin shortly after the draft with colleges still playing ball
3. Very traditional summer leagues already wait for some college guys, they can't wait for all of them
4. College guys already have to attend to semesters, having them play in summer would require additional scholarship and other money. For a sport that loses money at 99.9 of schools, how many schools would want to play for another semester and training tables?
5. WE IN THE SOUTH DON'T CARE THAT THE BIG 10 SUCK IN BASEBALL. Moving the season would only improve this marginally and would likely hurt succesful small schools whose talent would be spread to larger northern schools. East Carolina, Coastal Carolina, Rice, Fullerton, Fla International, Fla. Atlantic, Wake Forest, LA-Lafayette.

The one positive would involve Vanderbilt. A huge hunk of their best players are from north of the Mason-Dixon line. If those guys could go to Big10 or other northern programs and see no drop off in games played, why would they go to Vanderbilt?
Click to expand...

1. They would have to move the draft.
2. They would move the draft.
3. Summer leagues would disappear. Sad face? Who cares?
4. Kids go to summer school all the time. (Someone can correct me here) I don't think that costs the school any significant money. Non scholly-guys would be screwed in that scenario(I think). A radical solution would be to give baseball the fall off. Maybe let the "Summer leagues" become "fall leagues". Obviously that wouldn't go over well at football schools, but it is an idea, I suppose.
5. Although I agree - I don't care that the B1G sucks in baseball - I do appreciate the fact that the current schedule is completely unfair to all the northern schools. Southern schools would still have an advantage, as I assume you would emulate the MLB schedule. Its still cold in Michigan in April. Practicing before then would be significantly more difficult up there than in the south. Moving the schedule wouldn't eliminate the disadvantage, but it would at least acknowledge that those schools exist. I also think it would increase national attendance on a massive scale, and likely put a lot more schools in that revenue production column.
 
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