Stanford 2015-The end of world (or not)

[madtownvol]

I understand the complete board meltdown after the Baylor debacle but we have been here before. Last year, the LVs looked just as listless, just a lost, just an inept against Stanford as they did against Baylor in 2016.

I remember posting after that game that AD needed to make an immediate change and that Holly had clearly lost the program, owing to the blatant lack of effort shown by the players.

A few days later, the LVs looked like a different team and beat OSU. I still find that to be one of the most inexplicable Jekyll and Hyde moments in LV history but perhaps we can see a similar about face against Texas. I think this team will rally around Holly again. Why they would need this kind of embarrassment (again repeating history) is inexplicable to me but that seems to be there pattern.

As bad as the LVs were against Baylor, they had more than enough opportunities to at least make it a game, particularly in the 1st half. They were getting some stops in the first quarter but then they missed an inordinate number of open mid range jumpers and some bunnies. In other words, they were getting the kind of shots they would have wanted. Had they hit a decent %, the LVs would have at least made Baylor have to work a little bit to get some separation. [Believe me, I have no delusions about who the far better team was; but the LVs could have easily been more competitive]

Aside from bad shooting, the LVs were getting beat on almost all the effort plays (much like their dismal effort at Stanford 2015). That lack of effort reflects badly on Holly and her assistants (as it did last year in the Stanford loss). But, will the team rally as it did last year? On the effort side, at least, I strongly suspect that they will. Odds are, DD and others will also shoot a little better.

On the plus side, Mercedes had a good game and she did it matched up against quality bigs. So that bodes well. I liked the energy and aggression that Nared showed in the first half when she almost single handedly tried to keep the LVs in the game.

Nared's performance is what you would have expected from DD. Yes, the earlier foul trouble contributed to her woes but she missed a lot of open shots and also forced up several --- maybe in a game of H.O.R.S.E.-- prayers that indicated that she is almost trying too hard to be an impact player.

To me, this season again hinges on finding the key that unlocks DD's potential (I thought that key had been found toward the end of last season). One thing that seems apparent is that DD wants to play faster than the team as a whole. So, either the LVs need to bump up to DD's tempo or she needs to find a way to make an impact in a more deliberate offense.

And Jordan also needs to up her game quite a bit. Maybe she was rusty from her time off but she was a on-factor and the Baylor guards ran rampant.

I also think Nunn showed what her role can be. She is not a scoring presence in the paint (and will not be because she has no real post game) but she is good at boxing out; grabbing boards and being a defensive presence. She could become very important to the team as the season goes on.

 

[Amb3096]

I understand the complete board meltdown after the Baylor debacle but we have been here before. Last year, the LVs looked just as listless, just a lost, just an inept against Stanford as they did against Baylor in 2016.

I remember posting after that game that AD needed to make an immediate change and that Holly had clearly lost the program, owing to the blatant lack of effort shown by the players.

A few days later, the LVs looked like a different team and beat OSU. I still find that to be one of the most inexplicable Jekyll and Hyde moments in LV history but perhaps we can see a similar about face against Texas. I think this team will rally around Holly again. Why they would need this kind of embarrassment (again repeating history) is inexplicable to me but that seems to be there pattern.

As bad as the LVs were against Baylor, they had more than enough opportunities to at least make it a game, particularly in the 1st half. They were getting some stops in the first quarter but then they missed an inordinate number of open mid range jumpers and some bunnies. In other words, they were getting the kind of shots they would have wanted. Had they hit a decent %, the LVs would have at least made Baylor have to work a little bit to get some separation. [Believe me, I have no delusions about who the far better team was; but the LVs could have easily been more competitive]

Aside from bad shooting, the LVs were getting beat on almost all the effort plays (much like their dismal effort at Stanford 2015). That lack of effort reflects badly on Holly and her assistants (as it did last year in the Stanford loss). But, will the team rally as it did last year? On the effort side, at least, I strongly suspect that they will. Odds are, DD and others will also shoot a little better.

On the plus side, Mercedes had a good game and she did it matched up against quality bigs. So that bodes well. I liked the energy and aggression that Nared showed in the first half when she almost single handedly tried to keep the LVs in the game.

Nared's performance is what you would have expected from DD. Yes, the earlier foul trouble contributed to her woes but she missed a lot of open shots and also forced up several --- maybe in a game of H.O.R.S.E.-- prayers that indicted to me that she is trying to hard to be an impact player.

To me, this season again hinges on finding the key that unlocks DD's potential (I thought that key had been found toward the end of last season). One thing that seems apparent is that DD wants to play faster than the team as a whole. So, either the LVs need to bump up to DD's tempo or she needs to find a way to make an impact in a more deliberate offense.

And Jordan also needs to up her game quite a bit. Maybe she was rusty from her time off but she was a on-factor and the Baylor guards ran rampant.

I also think Nunn showed what her role can be. She is not a scoring presence in the paint (and will not be because she has no real post game) but she is good at boxing out; grabbing boards and being a defensive presence. She could become very important to the team as the season goes on.

It's not so much the fact they lost bo Baylor, but how they lost to Baylor. Even if the Stanford game, they made a run in the second half that kept the game suspenseful. Against Baylor, at home, they folded at tipoff and rallied behind their starters after Kim had called off the bloodhounds in the 4th quarter. If Baylor kept up the intensity they showed in the first 3 Qs, this would have been a 50 point loss.

The other problem with this comparison is that after the Oregon State win, they went on to have a miserable SEC season. Whether the team rallies around Holly or not is to be decided, but there's nothing in their listless play to date that suggests they have turned the corner. They have to show that they can beat a team that is not a Div II cupcake...which is all they have been able to offer to date.

I do agree that there was some individual promise. Mercedes validated herself as one of the premier post players in the country, and Diamond/Jaime competed hard even if their shots weren't falling. But the three true guards (Reynolds, Middleton and Jackson) have been completely useless on offense and defense against teams that don't completely suck. At the end of the day, their lack of contributions is something that the Big 3 cannot overcome, unless they are ready to have career games night in and night out.

 

[gule]

All that stands out to me about the Baylor loss late in the game was the possession where DD was down deep in the paint, battling her ass off trying to keep one of their bigs from getting the ball 2 ft from the basket. She did it too! I'd give her player of the game just for that. She had nobody coming to help her and she was busting it! Don't know where Nared, Dunn or Russell were hiding. I think Tn got the ball back and Middleton threw it away though even after DD's stellar effort. I haven't had the nerve to re watch the game yet to find out.

 

[gerryladon]

All that stands out to me about the Baylor loss late in the game was the possession where DD was down deep in the paint, battling her ass off trying to keep one of their bigs from getting the ball 2 ft from the basket. She did it too! I'd give her player of the game just for that. She had nobody coming to help her and she was busting it! Don't know where Nared, Dunn or Russell were hiding. I think Tn got the ball back and Middleton threw it away though even after DD's stellar effort. I haven't had the nerve to re watch the game yet to find out.

So funny

 

[Amb3096]

All that stands out to me about the Baylor loss late in the game was the possession where DD was down deep in the paint, battling her ass off trying to keep one of their bigs from getting the ball 2 ft from the basket. She did it too! I'd give her player of the game just for that. She had nobody coming to help her and she was busting it! Don't know where Nared, Dunn or Russell were hiding. I think Tn got the ball back and Middleton threw it away though even after DD's stellar effort. I haven't had the nerve to re watch the game yet to find out.

Diamond gets sh!t on a lot unnecessarily here. I always see her giving effort. Her shots don't always fall, but she's out there hustling. Jaime has worse body language than Diamond, but that might be attributed to a scorching case of Resting B!tch Face.

 

[madtownvol]

Diamond gets sh!t on a lot unnecessarily here. I always see her giving effort. Her shots don't always fall, but she's out there hustling. Jaime has worse body language than Diamond, but that might be attributed to a scorching case of Resting B!tch Face.

I was not disparaging DD. She clearly wants to win but her impact in the Baylor game and several others has been much less than what it should be. The reason I pointed out that she wants to play a faster tempo game than everyone else was to highlight that something is out of sync but that is not necessarily DD's fault.

 

[10acvols]

Sure seems like other teams have had success using former lady vols as coaches. No doubt Holly was Summit's choice as successor, but I really think it's time to move on. Holly just hasn't proved to be as good a coach as a player.

 

[gule]

she's a race horse harnessed to a team of drafthorses.

 

[Amb3096]

I was not disparaging DD. She clearly wants to win but her impact in the Baylor game and several others has been much less than what it should be. The reason I pointed out that she wants to play a faster tempo game than everyone else was to highlight that something is out of sync but that is not necessarily DD's fault.

There have been a lot of posts from various posters talking about how Diamond doesn't give effort and play hard. I think she does give effort and does play hard, but looks confused on the court...and that points right back to Holly. So instead of talking about how she has players on her team who can't compete, she should be saying that in her career as HC at Tennessee, she has yet to show that she can consistently make her players better from the time they arrive to the time they graduate.

 

[RollerVol]

guess the team just isn't warmed up yet...and, as always...

GO LADY VOLS!

 

[LVJeff]

The OSU game may also be a bad comparison due to OSU had a bunch of slow white girls on the perimeter that had trouble getting shots off. They also chose to play man defense in that game not zone. But your point is well taken - the LV's turned it around and won.

 

[Darth_Vol]

I don't see many parallels. Stanford was an away game last year, and even our championship teams in the past had trouble winning there. Yesterday the game was over by the first deadball. The game was never as close as even the final score would suggest. At one point the Lady Vols were down by 35. At home....

 

[Pat4life]

I was not disparaging DD. She clearly wants to win but her impact in the Baylor game and several others has been much less than what it should be. The reason I pointed out that she wants to play a faster tempo game than everyone else was to highlight that something is out of sync but that is not necessarily DD's fault.

Diamond is the one in the papers on the news, telling us her great she is, we just want to see it with her play, that's all. Things are out of sync cos the players are not in the gym. Confident players are in the gym.

Clearly Diamond is a better athlete than Nared, but Nared shows up in the big games so far this year, Diamond has been MIA. We've seen Nared and Russell fight through adversity, Nared is pissed off cos she see's the rest of her team quitting and not playing hard.

Diamond wants to win, but want to and doing it are two separate thangs. For this lady its all mental, she is mentally weak, every time I've watched her live she's been punked by opposing players guard top alpha Dawg, she needs to get tougher. Her lack of confidence in her bball skills and opposing players toughness, easily throw her off her game (just be physical with her she's done one coach said) then complaining bout fouls, get yo ass up and get down court, Diamond looks like she is going through the motions, no impact on the game, that's meaningful.

She used to be a lady amongst gurl, now talented players have caught up to her skill level, now she's not playing like the best player on her team or the best guard in the game.

So you're telling me if Diamond is playing hard as she can every game with (so called) talent, if so she would, she should be the best player on the court, right? No, but her streaky shooting, inability to make layup through contact, and weak pull up jumper don't give her confidence in her game, so she blends in, as an average player, get in the gym young lady.

Will the real Diamond Deshields please stand up? What have u done for the Lady Vols lately? Not a damn thang but TALK!

 

[Pat4life]

I do agree, Nunn needs to get more minutes, at least she will mix it up in the paint. She plays tough.

 

[Pat4life]

I do agree, its not the end of the world. Fire Mitchell.

I just thought Diamond was better. Reynolds would be playing better. I guess we have time to see improvements.

Diamond and I would be going at each day in practice, there might be fights, Nared vs Diamond, every day, all day, after practice, just pushing each other making each other better.

Let's go Lady Vols.

 

[armchair]

Some of you are funny: Oh, if the coaches can only figure out how to get DD and Reynolds to play better. Really? Reynolds is a freakin' senior--she's been starting for three or four years. She's big and athletic--and yet has underachieved consistently under Warlick. DD is supposed to be one of the best players in the country--and one can see the talent--but she's been somewhere between mediocre and bad in at least half the games she's played for UT under Warlick. We were horrible most of last year; we are horrible again this year. If you are trying to figure out, at this point, how to get Reynolds and DD to play well, it only shows how deep the problems are.

 

[teacherdean]

I do agree, its not the end of the world. Fire Mitchell.

I just thought Diamond was better. Reynolds would be playing better. I guess we have time to see improvements.

Diamond and I would be going at each day in practice, there might be fights, Nared vs Diamond, every day, all day, after practice, just pushing each other making each other better.

Let's go Lady Vols.

I think that Holly's offense is not suited for Diamond's skill set. She is a fast player that performs better when she is able to use her speed. We spend far too much time throwing the ball around the perimeter trying to get the ball inside. I think that a lot of time this offense causes Diamond to lose her focus.

Diamond makes a lot of unforced errors because players are not prepared for her quick passes off the dribble. We rarely dribble penitrate which Diamond was good at during her freshman year at NC. We allow defenses to set up with little if any pressure. I think we need to develope a motion offense.

Next year we will have more speed and we need an offense to take advantage of that speed. I really believe that our offense is too one dimensional and predictable.

 

[Pat4life]

Diamond is thinking too much. This offense, gives Mercedes the touches she needs to showcase her talent as a player and if we had guard that can shoot 40%, this offense would be off the chain, and could shoot mid 30% form the 3. Teams double and triple team Mercedes, they don't respect our guards, then we want get to the rim, then when we do its out of control. Diamond, sorry, I haven't been impressed.

I mean Hollly, switch the offense from the ladies traditional 3/2 to 4/1 now she don't have the guards to pull it off, but we are not North Carolina to run and gun, sorry it looks good but it don't win no games, we all know that and we don't have the players. And most good team, are going to take away transition. She knows this, this her fourth year.

The offense is motion, its not the offense, player and ball movement and reading the defenses, we run, motion (villanova, princeton, wisconsin version), triangle, high low, 3/2, 4/1, 5/0, our offense is not the problem, our players lack of toughness and confidence is the problem.

Diamond is a mental midget simply as that, once she become the player in her head and have the confidence in her game by getting in the gym, that she will knock down shots, til then she will look average.

I do agree, her interpretation of the game exceeds some of her fellow guards, but that's what a good player do, they adjust their game to fit their team, she's just not playing quality basketball right now, but hey she has time.

Diamond losses focus cos she's getting punked in the games, she getting bullied, teams are roughing her up, all the athletics ones, and its knocking her off her game.

I rewatched the Baylor, Prince dared her to do anything most of the game, she punked her most of the game. Now, u as a teammate, gotta watch yo star playa, yo leader constantly getting punked by other teams top dawgs, cos they are shooting it better from the outside, knows how to work within their offense to get themselves or teammate the best shot possible, and or making their teammates better with their play or taking better care of the ball. Opposing guards are winning the duels, and making her look bad, the self annointed All American, so she presses. Her game is off, cos she's inside her head too much, over thinking everything and opposing teams know how to get inside her head. Head case.

She is a mental midget, and when she decides to be a mental giant like her mother, we would see a different Lady Vol team.

 

[teacherdean]

Diamond is thinking too much. This offense, gives Mercedes the touches she needs to showcase her talent as a player and if we had guard that can shoot 40%, this offense would be off the chain, and could shoot mid 30% form the 3. Teams double and triple team Mercedes, they don't respect our guards, then we want get to the rim, then when we do its out of control. Diamond, sorry, I haven't been impressed.

I mean Hollly, switch the offense from the ladies traditional 3/2 to 4/1 now she don't have the guards to pull it off, but we are not North Carolina to run and gun, sorry it looks good but it don't win no games, we all know that and we don't have the players. And most good team, are going to take away transition. She knows this, this her fourth year.

The offense is motion, its not the offense, player and ball movement and reading the defenses, we run, motion (villanova, princeton, wisconsin version), triangle, high low, 3/2, 4/1, 5/0, our offense is not the problem, our players lack of toughness and confidence is the problem.

Diamond is a mental midget simply as that, once she become the player in her head and have the confidence in her game by getting in the gym, that she will knock down shots, til then she will look average.

I do agree, her interpretation of the game exceeds some of her fellow guards, but that's what a good player do, they adjust their game to fit their team, she's just not playing quality basketball right now, but hey she has time.

Diamond losses focus cos she's getting punked in the games, she getting bullied, teams are roughing her up, all the athletics ones, and its knocking her off her game.

I rewatched the Baylor, Prince dared her to do anything most of the game, she punked her most of the game. Now, u as a teammate, gotta watch yo star playa, yo leader constantly getting punked by other teams top dawgs, cos they are shooting it better from the outside, knows how to work within their offense to get themselves or teammate the best shot possible, and or making their teammates better with their play or taking better care of the ball. Opposing guards are winning the duels, and making her look bad, the self annointed All American, so she presses. Her game is off, cos she's inside her head too much, over thinking everything and opposing teams know how to get inside her head. Head case.

She is a mental midget, and when she decides to be a mental giant like her mother, we would see a different Lady Vol team.

Sometimes you have to demand toughness. It does not come easy. I still believe the offense is too predictable. Teams go into a zone and we are just about screwed. We have not figured out the zone in 4 years. Our offense is anything but consistent. I can't believe that we have recruited a bunch of head cases that all of a sudden have lost it. I believe that the problem is deeper then that. There comes a time when we need to quit blaming the players for all that is happening. I will agree that leadership is lacking on the floor. In that regard I feel for Holly.

 

[Pat4life]

Sometimes you have to demand toughness. It does not come easy. I still believe the offense is too predictable. Teams go into a zone and we are just about screwed. We have not figured out the zone in 4 years. Our offense is anything but consistent. I can't believe that we have recruited a bunch of head cases that all of a sudden have lost it. I believe that the problem is deeper then that. There comes a time when we need to quit blaming the players for all that is happening. I will agree that leadership is lacking on the floor. In that regard I feel for Holly.

I agree, I do not think Holly has been doing a good job of demanding excellence, and holding them accountable, I think she demands it and then takes it back, which is confusing to players. She can't be both good cop and bad cop, she has to be for excellence, I'm here, we are here to make u the best players possible, everything I or we are going to ask of you is, is in order to make that happen.

And less not forget Meme, Middleton, Dunbar, and Nunn aren't exactly returning players with heavy minutes, role players at best, they've been role players since they been here. So its not like she working with All Americans here.

Yes, she has her work cut off for her, but see I don't see Holly backing down from the challenge, frustrated ass hell cos her star player isn't showing up again, now if u bench her, her dad calls, and she's having to rely on role players to carry more weight than originally anticipated.

If Diamond engages, we become a better basketball team, she can make this whole team better by knocking shots, defending, rebounding and dominating games, without her playing like an All America with this lineup or roster we will struggle, Tea tough, out with injury, Green tough out with injury. So we need Diamond to be an All American, and that's a lot of pressure when your inconsistent.

Diamond is the only player that can consistently get shots for herself and others, which she doesn't do well at either, shooting the ball, and passing it. So the waiting game continues... Go Guards. Go Diamond.

The one things that kills me about ours guard is, they are not good one on one, but as a unit, with player movement and ball movement, we can be a great team. WE can get better shots, easier shots.

Both players and coaches are to blame. Come on now!

 

[madtownvol]

I think that Holly's offense is not suited for Diamond's skill set. She is a fast player that performs better when she is able to use her speed. We spend far too much time throwing the ball around the perimeter trying to get the ball inside. I think that a lot of time this offense causes Diamond to lose her focus.

Diamond makes a lot of unforced errors because players are not prepared for her quick passes off the dribble. We rarely dribble penitrate which Diamond was good at during her freshman year at NC. We allow defenses to set up with little if any pressure. I think we need to develope a motion offense.

Next year we will have more speed and we need an offense to take advantage of that speed. I really believe that our offense is too one dimensional and predictable.

Yes, DD is much better in an open, run and gun style, where she can use her speed, agility, and good ball skills to beat people. But she is not a very good shot so the slower half court perimeter highlights here weaknesses.Though DD has good court vision and passing skills, our stagnant offensive sets don't play to that strength either.

Across threads, there has been a lot of talk about effort and I agree that aspect of the game could do up quite a bit (most particularly in the Baylor game). But the players looked so confused, that I am not sure they even know now to put in effort. And that goes on Holly. That does not mean "fire here!" cause that is just not going to happen anyway in the near term. But she needs to own up to her own failings and the staff's failings and get this team ready to play against Texas and the rest

 

[Pat4life]

And Holly owned it:

(On the cause of players underachieving)
"If I knew, I probably wouldn't be coaching. I'd be making a whole heck of a lot more money being some kind of psychologist working with sports teams. I don't know. But I'm going to try to put my finger on it because we're just underachieving. Maybe I think we're more talented than we are. Talented or not, you have to play hard. It has nothing to do with talent. It's respecting the game and right now, we are not respecting the game. It's not about Lady Vol basketball; it's about the game. This game is meant to be played as hard as you can. You have to be mentally tough and you have to compete. If you don't do that, then you're going to get beat by whatever we got beat by, thirty, twenty, whatever we got beat by. You can't just turn it on, that's not how it works. You have to respect this game. I should know. I was not even close to being as talented as these kids here. It's about heart. It's about thinking that you're better than you are. So these kids have to pick up my personality. They have to go down swinging. They have to carry a big stick, we're carrying a little twig right now and it isn't working. So talented? No, right now, we're not talented. Playing with a lot of heart? Right now, we're not playing with a lot of heart. We're getting out-worked, we're getting out-muscled and it's up to me to try to do something about it. I'm going to continue to work. I'm not going to give up on this team, I love this team. I'm just obviously disappointed in how they played. But we'll go back to work. It's a new day; the sun's going to come up. We're going to be off. I get to watch the team five or six times and continue to get madder and madder. But it's up to me to figure out how we're going to get this ship headed in the right direction. I promise you, I will figure it out. I'm not giving up on them, just have to go in at a little different direction."

 

[Pat4life]

Tennessee Forward Jaime Nared, everybody is takin ownership, well the coach and two players, let's see if the others join in. , read...

hello we're not making it up. lol :thud:

(On the loss)
"This game had to do with heart and effort, and I think those were the two categories that we were lacking. There were times when it felt like Mercedes was giving effort, but the other four weren't. We can't do that against a team like Baylor, who plays together and so hard for 40 minutes."

(On the slow start)
"We started out flat. We gave up offensive boards. We weren't talking or playing together. It showed because we didn't score for the first 10 possessions. We definitely need to get in the gym because we weren't making shots and easy baskets."

 

[madtownvol]

Tennessee Forward Jaime Nared, everybody is takin ownership, well the coach and two players, let's see if the others join in. , read...

hello we're not making it up. lol :thud:

(On the loss)
"This game had to do with heart and effort, and I think those were the two categories that we were lacking. There were times when it felt like Mercedes was giving effort, but the other four weren't. We can't do that against a team like Baylor, who plays together and so hard for 40 minutes."

(On the slow start)
"We started out flat. We gave up offensive boards. We weren't talking or playing together. It showed because we didn't score for the first 10 possessions. We definitely need to get in the gym because we weren't making shots and easy baskets."

From the ashes, that is the right attitude to express. But, why is it now that the team needs to get into the gym; they were not a good shooting team last season; how many times over the last few seasons has Holly made an almost identical plea for effort and determination and vowed to get it right.

Holly is our coach but really, she keeps hitting the same notes and apparently pursuing the same ineffectual strategies; do more the same but harder is not a formula for attaining a higher level of success. There is now a major gap between the LVs and top ten programs. Holly and company need some new ideas, new approaches and new schemes to get this ship really turned around. When you have a major hole in the hull, yellling for the crew to dump the incoming water out faster and harder is,in the long run, a proposition for sinking. In other words, fix the dang hole.....

 

[Pat4life]

This is coming from the players and coach mouth. Wow. How many times do you repeat things to your children? wuteva? Repetition is the key to success in coaching.

They are the ones who are in it every day, I will take their word over yours sorry. I am posting the quotes from the players and coaches, so maybe you all will see, that with, this team of talented players, it all begins with effort and heart.

So you can keep talking about strategies, you can have the bests strategies in the world, if your team or players ain't gonna run it, what you got. Holly is not perfect by any means, but to not think she hasn't been trying to address the problems is crazy, now she may have tried something and didn't work, we all don't know.

All we know is what they, the players, coaches and the games tell us. You can read into between the lines of the games, which we all do, but when it boils down to it it, what the coaches and players share in the interviews, do we truly get to see what's going with this team and program.

So, unless you have behind the scenes info, that u want to share, that's she's trying the same formula and failing for a higher level of success cos the season ain't over yet.

There is a major gap now, between the top 10 teams, seven games into the season, aye jumpship, the ship isn't sunkin, cos if players plays wit no effort, u don't have a ship.

So, right now, she's building her ship with Mercedes and Nared, laying the foundation of the hull.