Coaching/program dicussion (split from recruiting thread)

[mlindsay]

You seem to have lots of insight about what goes on in player heads, the locker room, Holly's office, practices, and other things....I'm surprised you don't already know about the recruiting side of things as well.

I love the sarcasm and my information is based on research and not kissing a coach behind as you seem to do a lot when anything is said about Holly. Excuse me if Pat instilled a level of excellence (and a storied program) that I don't want to see brought down especially by someone Pat loved so dearly. If Holly doesn't get it done this year (bad recruiting and year) she owes it to Pat to step down and let someone come in to restore what she could possibly destroy. Unlike some of you (you in particular) I call it like I see it and not beat around the bush/sugar coat things to spare Holly's feelings.

 

[Coach Jumper]

I love the sarcasm and my information is based on research and not kissing a coach behind as you seem to do a lot when anything is said about Holly. Excuse me if Pat instilled a level of excellence (and a storied program) that I don't want to see brought down especially by someone Pat loved so dearly. If Holly doesn't get it done this year (bad recruiting and year) she owes it to Pat to step down and let someone come in to restore what she could possibly destroy. Unlike some of you (you in particular) I call it like I see it and not beat around the bush/sugar coat things to spare Holly's feelings.

I know I am securing my standing with HW in saying this, but "well said" ml... on Both stances.

 

[mlindsay]

Will Dean be able to turn her into a scorer. Probably not but her is who we got.

Which is more of the reason why he should have been sent packing with Kyra (imo based on the performance last year we should've gotten a whole new support staff since I know Holly wasn't going to be replaced.)

 

[Chris89128]

Which is more of the reason why he should have been sent packing with Kyra (imo based on the performance last year we should've gotten a whole new support staff since I know Holly wasn't going to be replaced.)

We get it you think our whole staff sucks. I swear you are stuck on repeat, like many others

 

[armchair]

We get it you think our whole staff sucks. I swear you are stuck on repeat, like many others

our staff is .... bad. True during the last decade of PS's career, true now. Until we get better offensively, we will be a pretender.

 

[LadyVol1908]

I love the sarcasm and my information is based on research and not kissing a coach behind as you seem to do a lot when anything is said about Holly. Excuse me if Pat instilled a level of excellence (and a storied program) that I don't want to see brought down especially by someone Pat loved so dearly. If Holly doesn't get it done this year (bad recruiting and year) she owes it to Pat to step down and let someone come in to restore what she could possibly destroy. Unlike some of you (you in particular) I call it like I see it and not beat around the bush/sugar coat things to spare Holly's feelings.

Well I respect your opinion on Holly. We just see two different spectrums when it comes to Holly and the Lady Vol program. You can check my track record on this board, I don't "beat around the bush, or "sugar coat" anything...that's never been a trait of mine, not on the internet and not in real life.

You base your information on research, I base mine on research as well as experience in actually playinggggg the game of basketball for years. I've coached teams, refereed, and had an older sister that went through the recruiting process. I don't kiss Holly's ass nor do I think the other fans that don't see everything in a negative light do either....we just choose not to sulk and cast a negative shadow on a coach that isn't going anywhere. We've provided a wealth of information that you seem to look over that combats almost everything you've negatively said about Holly. Hell just the other day there was an article about Draya's damn knees and you pop off the negativity by saying Holly is making excuses???? People get tired of that, and I'm one of them!

I don't think ANYONE on this board wants to see the program that Pat built go down in flames. I choose not to accept that reality as of yet. As long as top recruits still have our name amongst their final list, I'll continue to have hope for us. Holly had ONE.....ONE bad year in recruiting and all of a sudden she's a TERRIBLE coach and recruiter. She doesn't say what you guys want in interviews, oh she's a TERRIBLE coach...Holly gets a dog, instead of a cat...oh she's a TERRIBLE coach!

It gets old and every time I see something negative, that makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE at all, like most of your post, I'll continue to "call it like I, LadyVol1908, see it and use my "research" to compare to yours. Whether it's "kissing Holly's ass" in your eyes or not.

 

[LadyVol1908]

We get it you think our whole staff sucks. I swear you are stuck on repeat, like many others

Like a broken record my friend. :-/

 

[Coach Jumper]

our staff is .... bad. True during the last decade of PS's career, true now. Until we get better offensively, we will be a pretender.

The staff know what it is doing, it has done it for years successfully...Must be something else??

 

[Real Info]

I remember with this was the recruiting thread. I miss the good ole days. Back then the Lady Vols forum wasn't full of useless crap.

 

[wtorange]

our staff is .... bad. True during the last decade of PS's career, true now. Until we get better offensively, we will be a pretender.

We did win 2 national championships during Pat's last decade but hey those don't count do they?

 

[Sandvol]

We get it you think our whole staff sucks. I swear you are stuck on repeat, like many others

As well as you.

 

[mlindsay]

Well I respect your opinion on Holly. We just see two different spectrums when it comes to Holly and the Lady Vol program. You can check my track record on this board, I don't "beat around the bush, or "sugar coat" anything...that's never been a trait of mine, not on the internet and not in real life.

You base your information on research, I base mine on research as well as experience in actually playinggggg the game of basketball for years. I've coached teams, refereed, and had an older sister that went through the recruiting process. I don't kiss Holly's ass nor do I think the other fans that don't see everything in a negative light do either....we just choose not to sulk and cast a negative shadow on a coach that isn't going anywhere. We've provided a wealth of information that you seem to look over that combats almost everything you've negatively said about Holly. Hell just the other day there was an article about Draya's damn knees and you pop off the negativity by saying Holly is making excuses???? People get tired of that, and I'm one of them!

I don't think ANYONE on this board wants to see the program that Pat built go down in flames. I choose not to accept that reality as of yet. As long as top recruits still have our name amongst their final list, I'll continue to have hope for us. Holly had ONE.....ONE bad year in recruiting and all of a sudden she's a TERRIBLE coach and recruiter. She doesn't say what you guys want in interviews, oh she's a TERRIBLE coach...Holly gets a dog, instead of a cat...oh she's a TERRIBLE coach!

It gets old and every time I see something negative, that makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE at all, like most of your post, I'll continue to "call it like I, LadyVol1908, see it and use my "research" to compare to yours. Whether it's "kissing Holly's ass" in your eyes or not.

Nice of you to throw around your accolades like you are the only person who has playyyyyyed the game of basketball, refereed it, coach teams, and have siblings on the recruiting trial! LOL! I have done the following;

1. Coach AAU and Rec ball (Both Head Coach and assisted) for over 13 years after playing myself throughout my teens years and into high school.

2. Both of my sisters played High School basketball and one could have went to a few Division one schools had she not torn her Achilles her Junior year and decided to give up the game. My baby sister is heading into her senior season at Millersville (PA) Division II. (I was very instrumental in their game and progress.

3. I have sent several boys/young men whom I have coached or had the luxury of being an assistant coach of to Division I, II, or III schools. I will list them and their schools. Jordan Dickerson (Penn State), Khalil Jabbie (California, PA), Kenneth Tappin (Bowie State), Byron Hawkins (Towson), Gerel Simmons (Lincoln Memorial University), Lennard Freeman (NC State).

4. I am tough on Holly because I expect more from her, she has set on the bench for 30 years with Pat and has looked like she hasn't learned a thing. Y'all can continue to beat a dead horse and blame injuries and I will continue to say "great coaches" go with the next man up/coach players to get out of them what they need from them for their team to be successful.

5. Yes I said Holly was making excuses in the Andraya thread because as a coach if you have a player who is injured/playing with an injury why are you given them so many minutes? You have to at some point trust your other players/see what they can do. When Izzy was out the first 4 games and Nia was lighting it up we shouldn't have been so in a rush to get Izzy back, we should have allowed time for her to get 100% healthy before throwing her out there and we end up losing her and Nia never got any more significant playing time after that, that is horrible coaching. You can claim the talent level is different but it all comes down to her ability as a coach. She was given a pass the first few seasons because she was coaching essentially with Pat's last few recruiting classes. Now that she has her own how has the team looked? How has recruiting been?

5. I don't just harp on the negative I state the positive as well but there hasn't been much positivity. Yes we made it to the Elite but the tournament worked out in our favor where we truly should have been playing UConn for the National Title and Holly was out-coached by the Syracuse coach whether you want to agree with me or not.

6. Once again I refuse to settle and especially with a coach who has spent 30 plus years playing for or coaching with the best women's basketball coach in history (imo). So I'm going to be critical but when I see her doing right I will commend her. Like I have with the addition of Reeves, the signings of Nunn and Green (Juco's) as well as her taking on the challenge to coach a 3 star defensive player with limited offensive skill set in Harris.

If you have a problem with my constant negativity (as you like to say) you can always mute me along with Chris

 

[LadyVol1908]

Nice of you to throw around your accolades like you are the only person who has playyyyyyed the game of basketball, refereed it, coach teams, and have siblings on the recruiting trial! LOL! I have done the following;

1. Coach AAU and Rec ball (Both Head Coach and assisted) for over 13 years after playing myself throughout my teens years and into high school.

2. Both of my sisters played High School basketball and one could have went to a few Division one schools had she not torn her Achilles her Junior year and decided to give up the game. My baby sister is heading into her senior season at Millersville (PA) Division II. (I was very instrumental in their game and progress.

3. I have sent several boys/young men whom I have coached or had the luxury of being an assistant coach of to Division I, II, or III schools. I will list them and their schools. Jordan Dickerson (Penn State), Khalil Jabbie (California, PA), Kenneth Tappin (Bowie State), Byron Hawkins (Towson), Gerel Simmons (Lincoln Memorial University), Lennard Freeman (NC State).

4. I am tough on Holly because I expect more from her, she has set on the bench for 30 years with Pat and has looked like she hasn't learned a thing. Y'all can continue to beat a dead horse and blame injuries and I will continue to say "great coaches" go with the next man up/coach players to get out of them what they need from them for their team to be successful.

5. Yes I said Holly was making excuses in the Andraya thread because as a coach if you have a player who is injured/playing with an injury why are you given them so many minutes? You have to at some point trust your other players/see what they can do. When Izzy was out the first 4 games and Nia was lighting it up we shouldn't have been so in a rush to get Izzy back, we should have allowed time for her to get 100% healthy before throwing her out there and we end up losing her and Nia never got any more significant playing time after that, that is horrible coaching. You can claim the talent level is different but it all comes down to her ability as a coach. She was given a pass the first few seasons because she was coaching essentially with Pat's last few recruiting classes. Now that she has her own how has the team looked? How has recruiting been?

5. I don't just harp on the negative I state the positive as well but there hasn't been much positivity. Yes we made it to the Elite but the tournament worked out in our favor where we truly should have been playing UConn for the National Title and Holly was out-coached by the Syracuse coach whether you want to agree with me or not.

6. Once again I refuse to settle and especially with a coach who has spent 30 plus years playing for or coaching with the best women's basketball coach in history (imo). So I'm going to be critical but when I see her doing right I will commend her. Like I have with the addition of Reeves, the signings of Nunn and Green (Juco's) as well as her taking on the challenge to coach a 3 star defensive player with limited offensive skill set in Harris.

If you have a problem with my constant negativity (as you like to say) you can always mute me along with Chris

No need to mute, I enjoy reading your post regardless of its negativity Need balance in life!

 

[CannonVol80]

Yes we made it to the Elite but the tournament worked out in our favor where we truly should have been playing UConn for the National Title and Holly was out-coached by the Syracuse coach whether you want to agree with me or not.

This is one point that I will disagree with you on. The Syracuse game didn't particularly turn on coaching, at all. There were two areas where the Syracuse team ended with a huge advantage. One was in "steals" where they were listed as having 13. And while they did have a number of actual "steals", a significant number of the steals with which Syracuse was credited with were, in fact, unforced turnovers on the part of Lady Vol players.

The second, and the area which accounted for the final score was that Syracuse was on fire from the 3-point line, shooting 50% in the first half and 46.7% overall. You can argue that the "failure" to adjust and go to a defense that protected the 3-point line better means that Holly got "outcoached", but we had already seen during the regular season that the Syracuse guards were simply too quick for our guards. Trying to guard them closely on the 3-point line would have resulted in them blowing by our guards and a huge disparity in 2-point shooting. As it was, the game was essentially even despite the great difference in turnovers, except for the 3-point shooting which, as it turned out, was almost exactly the final score differential.

Syracuse, in both the Elite 8 and the semifinal game of the Final 4, shot well over their season average of (which, by the way was raised a point or two by the aforementioned games) 29.5 percent! Had they shot the same 25% that they did against the Lady Vols in the regular season, it is entirely possible we would have seen a close game with a different outcome.

Not exactly "significantly outcoached", in my opinion.

Jim

 

[mlindsay]

This is one point that I will disagree with you on. The Syracuse game didn't particularly turn on coaching, at all. There were two areas where the Syracuse team ended with a huge advantage. One was in "steals" where they were listed as having 13. And while they did have a number of actual "steals", a significant number of the steals with which Syracuse was credited with were, in fact, unforced turnovers on the part of Lady Vol players.

The second, and the area which accounted for the final score was that Syracuse was on fire from the 3-point line, shooting 50% in the first half and 46.7% overall. You can argue that the "failure" to adjust and go to a defense that protected the 3-point line better means that Holly got "outcoached", but we had already seen during the regular season that the Syracuse guards were simply too quick for our guards. Trying to guard them closely on the 3-point line would have resulted in them blowing by our guards and a huge disparity in 2-point shooting. As it was, the game was essentially even despite the great difference in turnovers, except for the 3-point shooting which, as it turned out, was almost exactly the final score differential.

Syracuse, in both the Elite 8 and the semifinal game of the Final 4, shot well over their season average of (which, by the way was raised a point or two by the aforementioned games) 29.5 percent! Had they shot the same 25% that they did against the Lady Vols in the regular season, it is entirely possible we would have seen a close game with a different outcome.

Not exactly "significantly outcoached", in my opinion.

Jim

I understand your reasoning maybe she wasn't significantly outcoached but she was indeed outcoached and but there are a few things (imo) she could have done to win the game.

1.) They packed the paint on Defense and dared us to shoot the 3 and our best 3 point shooter (I know she doesn't play defense but the Day sisters weren't much of a threat in the paint so we could have gotten away with it) was on the bench (her 7 minutes of play came when we got done by 15).

2.) You have to run them off the 3pt line and we didn't do that. Against Miss State Holly took Vivians out of the game by keeping either Nared or Carter on her, the same should have been done for Butler/Peterson. Yes Peterson was quicker than our guards so why not trap her at certain spots and play the passing lanes? I wasn't afraid of the Day sisters, that's who we should have made beat us.

3.) You also have to go over top of the screens and not under them when you have a team that can shoot the 3 and yet our players continued to go under the screens.

4.) Also our full court press caused a lot of problems all season (for everyone we played because of our length and athleticism) and yet Holly didn't play much of it until we got down big and needed to claw back into the game.

5.) She also allowed the lead to get away from her before calling a few timeouts. It seemed like she waited until the game got away to call time outs.

6.) One thing great coaches do is develop a plan to stop the star player/players and force the role players to have to beat them (Geno and Muffet is famous for that). Holly was successful with that against Miss State (the first time we played them) but against Syracuse she didn't have an answer imo

 

[Voluble2]

I like how people just discount the unforced turnovers in the Syracuse game as if there is nothing to be done about them. This is the same attitude our coaching staff has.

The truth is that stupid, sloppy, timorous play is the hallmark of our program now and has been for quite some time. We have improved a bit at being more aggressive, but the shooting and turnovers are systemic and are why we will not be an elite program until there are drastic changes made in how we coach these girls.

So, unless you believe it is just flat out impossible to teach these girls to hang onto the ball and shoot better, then you have to say that coaching was the major factor in our loss just like it is year in and year out. And we all know if we swapped squads with Geno or lots of other coaches these problems would get cleared up rather than lingering on no matter who is on the team.

Sure, Syracuse was hot from the 3 pt line in our game and sometimes that will happen. Assuming you have already tried the appropriate moves on defense, you win those games by being efficient on offense yourself and that is something we are incapable of doing against good competition on any sort of consistent basis because our offense consists of riding unicycles around the perimeter and randomly tossing the ball into the paint when the panic of seeing the clock running down kicks in.

 

[mlindsay]

I like how people just discount the unforced turnovers in the Syracuse game as if there is nothing to be done about them. This is the same attitude our coaching staff has.

The truth is that stupid, sloppy, timorous play is the hallmark of our program now and has been for quite some time. We have improved a bit at being more aggressive, but the shooting and turnovers are systemic and are why we will not be an elite program until there are drastic changes made in how we coach these girls.

So, unless you believe it is just flat out impossible to teach these girls to hang onto the ball and shoot better, then you have to say that coaching was the major factor in our loss just like it is year in and year out. And we all know if we swapped squads with Geno or lots of other coaches these problems would get cleared up rather than lingering on no matter who is on the team.

Sure, Syracuse was hot from the 3 pt line in our game and sometimes that will happen. Assuming you have already tried the appropriate moves on defense, you win those games by being efficient on offense yourself and that is something we are incapable of doing against good competition on any sort of consistent basis because our offense consists of riding unicycles around the perimeter and randomly tossing the ball into the paint when the panic of seeing the clock running down kicks in.

Preach! That's what I mean by calling it how you see it!

 

[Volfan2012]

Coaching is about putting a team on the floor that plays efficiently. Considering that we, according to the recruiting rating services out talent most teams that we play. The reason for the inefficient play both on defense and offense has to be because of coaching. If we have so much talent then we should beat less talented teams unless our preparation and system is at fault. I saw a team last year that were the victim of too many unforced turnovers and horrible perimeter shooting. If you can't make shots outside then you have to make adjustments to take the ball to the basket or get it inside. We seem to just dribble out the clock on a lot of possessions which is why our offense is so terrible.
We were not exactly defensive dynamos either if you re-watched any of our games you would see we were very ineffective in running three point shooter on other teams off the line or making them give up the ball to another player. We also allowed to many easy layups with many of our perimeter players easily getting beat to the basket.
To say many of us continue to complain about the coaching is because it is obvious to any experienced basketball fan with knowledge of the game that last year we were not a well coached team. If the truth hurts then don't read these post no reason to lie we were awful. Getting to the elite eight was a great finish and coaches should get some credit for that, but should be just as thankful that neither of those two teams didn't slap a zone on us because then we might have seen more of the same we saw during the season.

 

[LadyVol1908]

Some I'm assuming you all think Holly tells these girls to turn the ball over...make ill advised passes into the post while 8 people are guarding the post player....dribble aimlessly around the court...stand around until someone decides to TRY and score....brick layups...brick mid range shots...air ball 3 pointers...allow every guard to blow pass you on the perimeter.

I'm not in the practices nor in the huddles but I'm DAMN sure Holly doesn't implement these things in any scenario. Holly can run every single drill Geno or Muffet runs in their practices and I doubt it would still make a difference with the players we have. IF WE DON'T HAVE PLAYERS THAT CAN MAKE SHOTS, our offense will continue to look horrid at best.

 

[FightingArtichoke]

Some I'm assuming you all think Holly tells these girls to turn the ball over...make ill advised passes into the post while 8 people are guarding the post player....dribble aimlessly around the court...stand around until someone decides to TRY and score....brick layups...brick mid range shots...air ball 3 pointers...allow every guard to blow pass you on the perimeter.

I'm not in the practices nor in the huddles but I'm DAMN sure Holly doesn't implement these things in any scenario. Holly can run every single drill Geno or Muffet runs in their practices and I doubt it would still make a difference with the players we have. IF WE DON'T HAVE PLAYERS THAT CAN MAKE SHOTS, our offense will continue to look horrid at best.

Holly is in charge of recruiting as well, so she bears the responsibility for either recruiting young women who are not very coachable, or for recruiting eager learners but then not being able to help them develop. Back when she took over for Pat, you could argue that those players were not her own, but now that excuse isn't plausible.

Perhaps the question to ask is how are the players developing under Holly. Izzy Harrison definitely got better at Tennessee, but Bashara Graves did not. I'm having difficulty thinking of more players who developed well, and I can think of more players who did not seem to progress, so I think that's something upon which Holly and her staff need to improve.

 

[kamoshika]

Some I'm assuming you all think Holly tells these girls to turn the ball over...make ill advised passes into the post while 8 people are guarding the post player....dribble aimlessly around the court...stand around until someone decides to TRY and score....brick layups...brick mid range shots...air ball 3 pointers...allow every guard to blow pass you on the perimeter.

These are all basketball fundamentals and if a player is either lacking in a key area or executing poorly, it's the coaching staff's responsibility to address these deficiencies. Not everyone is capable of becoming a well-rounded player, of course, but all are capable of giving their best effort...and I'm not sure how good this staff is at getting that from individuals or the team as a whole on a consistent basis.

 

[Orange_Mamba]

Can you guys create another thread for whatever it is your going on about. I keep clicking the thread thinking its some new recruiting news, but it's filled with irrelevant stuff that has nothing to do with recruits.

 

[golf437]

Can you guys create another thread for whatever it is your going on about. I keep clicking the thread thinking its some new recruiting news, but it's filled with irrelevant stuff that has nothing to do with recruits.

You can just ignore the thread.

 

[CannonVol80]

Some people apparently misunderstood my comments regarding Holly being out-coached. My comments were specifically addressing the limited issue of whether Quinton Hillsman "out-coached" Holly Warlick, and that I do not believe to be true. Had I been discussing the quality of the coaching that was seen during that game, my comments would have been more critical, especially with regard to the Tennessee sideline. However, I don't see any particular benefit to continual and public criticism of the coaching staff, particularly when we are entering a crucial recruiting phase!

Jim

 

[armchair]

I like how people just discount the unforced turnovers in the Syracuse game as if there is nothing to be done about them. This is the same attitude our coaching staff has.

The truth is that stupid, sloppy, timorous play is the hallmark of our program now and has been for quite some time. We have improved a bit at being more aggressive, but the shooting and turnovers are systemic and are why we will not be an elite program until there are drastic changes made in how we coach these girls.

So, unless you believe it is just flat out impossible to teach these girls to hang onto the ball and shoot better, then you have to say that coaching was the major factor in our loss just like it is year in and year out. And we all know if we swapped squads with Geno or lots of other coaches these problems would get cleared up rather than lingering on no matter who is on the team.

Sure, Syracuse was hot from the 3 pt line in our game and sometimes that will happen. Assuming you have already tried the appropriate moves on defense, you win those games by being efficient on offense yourself and that is something we are incapable of doing against good competition on any sort of consistent basis because our offense consists of riding unicycles around the perimeter and randomly tossing the ball into the paint when the panic of seeing the clock running down kicks in.

for 10 years! We are not well coached, and we have not been well coached for a long time going back into PS's last several years. We've made it to three elite 8s, it is true--but that is a little misleading as we still have fairly strong talent, and if you have strong talent you should win your first two NCAA tourney games without too much difficulty, and that leaves you to win only your first sweet 16 game to get to the Elite 8. We have to be a lot better in every way--starting with recruiting.