remember when Graves was a really good player?

#2
#2
I think teams and coaches watching film caught up with her. She still shoots a good percentage but takes way to many shots under pressure that she should throw back out to a guard. Our inability to hit outside shots really clogs up the post and forced shots are never going to get it done.
 
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#3
#3
Darth_Vol said:
What happened???

Might be time to retire the "Beast" nickname....
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Bashaara was never a skilled player. She was a hustle player who got her point on effort.

She needs scorers around her. She can't jump, so she gets swallowed in traffic even against players 5 inches shorter than her. If teams clog the paint, then she is neutralized.

She will never thrive on a team with no outside shooters and where she is a go-to player. Her job is to hit the boards and score on putbacks and free throws. Asking more of her is akin to asking her to be a different person.
 
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#4
#4
Volfan2012 said:
I think teams and coaches watching film caught up with her. She still shoots a good percentage but takes way to many shots under pressure that she should throw back out to a guard. Our inability to hit outside shots really clogs up the post and forced shots are never going to get it done.
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I agree, but I thought she would start playing better when Izzy started getting back to form. She should be better than what she's showing now IMO...
 
#5
#5
Darth_Vol said:
What happened???

Might be time to retire the "Beast" nickname....
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I think that she tries but skill is the big issue. I think she might be tough in a bar fight, even though there she might be at a disadvantage. I think she tries but is certainly not a beast. A for effort but B- for ability. However, within a team full of 5 stars you think that the right combination has to exist.
 
#6
#6
She'll get better as the team chemistry gets better. They'll all be a force to reckon with down the stretch and in the tournament(s). This team will find it's way and Holly will let them all play. It will be very difficult for teams to stay with the Lady Vols from here on out. By the way, there are no more Pat Summits left in the UT stable. :eek:k::eek:k:

GO VOLS!
 
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#7
#7
Darth_Vol said:
I agree, but I thought she would start playing better when Izzy started getting back to form. She should be better than what she's showing now IMO...
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Neither Graves or Izzy are playing at the level that they played last season thus far. They are trying to take to many shots under duress that never works.

Graves 11.1 ppg and 7.9 rebounds per game 46 percent shooting is not good for a post player.
You look at Izzy and she is 11.6 ppg 9 rebounds and 45 percent shooting. Post need to shoot over 50 percent. I think they are trying to make plays when there is not one to be made. It is all because of very poor outside shooting. We'll lose a lot of games if we depend on them to make plays inside without players shooting at least 43 to 45 percent from the perimeter.
Right now were shooting 37 percent and two of the guards playing the most are shooting 31 percent. That is not good enough to win against the top teams. You may tough out a game against a Wichita State.
Last night we shot 11 of 33 out there or 30 percent. That was with Burdick having a 50 percent shooting game. Hike that up to a normal 43 at least another 8 points and posts probably shoot better as well with more open space to operate.
 
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#8
#8
She's the hardest worker on the team. When she gets fouled & shoots FT's she's sweating like she's been in a marathon race. I agree totally w/Amb3096 "she's to hit the boards & score on putbacks and free throws". If she does those three things all game long she will be back in beast mold. I do like the energy & determination she brings to each game too.
 
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#9
#9
RollerVol said:
She'll get better as the team chemistry gets better. They'll all be a force to reckon with down the stretch and in the tournament(s). This team will find it's way and Holly will let them all play. It will be very difficult for teams to stay with the Lady Vols from here on out. By the way, there are no more Pat Summits left in the UT stable. :eek:k::eek:k:

GO VOLS!
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RollerVol: :good!:I pray and hope you are right. I always try to see the Lady Vols if they are near. I am thinking about going to see them against ND. It would sure be nice to see a win or at least a close game. I just hope your vision comes true.
 
#10
#10
I really like Bash and I think she is a wonderful "role" player. She knows her role and she doesn't try to do more than what she is supposed to. Last night at the game I was VERY disappointed in the team around her when she was at the free throw line. She missed a couple and at one point she just bent over in frustration and you can tell she was upset with herself. I think as a team you have to come together for one another and get in their face and let them know it's going to be okay, be supportive for one another. Didn't see that last night :(
Bash has a nice 10 footer though and would like her to shoot that shot more. When Izzy is 100%, the high low game will come back. I rather have Bash shoot the 10 footer than Burd.

How many fouls did she draw? She attempted 9 free throws, that is at least 5 fouls she drew alone. That is productive, 5-9 free throw is not.
 
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#12
#12
Why do fans keep asking why Graves isn't playing like she did as a freshman??? She is! The problem is that she's NOT PLAYING ANY BETTER than she did as a freshman. She has not developed any new skills. She is a fairly athletic rebounder who--for some reason--cannot do much more than rebound. She gets points--but nearly all of them are from offensive rebounds or free throws. She has NO real offensive skills--and our coaches apparently have not taught her any in three years. I mean, I'm not sure I've ever seen her perform a basic turnaround jumper in the paint, though maybe she's tried a handful over the years. We don't have a conventional offense, in the sense that players are in motion, setting screens and passing, which might help her a little. Instead, our offense consists in trying to get the ball to Harrison, and if that doesn't work somebody outside will go into free-lance mode, with usually ugly results.

Graves plays hard, so there is that, and rebounding is important--but it seems like she should be better and more of a force than she is. But that is also true for Massengale and Carter and most everybody. They are all victims of UT's poorly coached offense. If Graves could do more, she could take some of the pressure off Hamilton, but we don't see it and I doubt we will see it. I would like to see Jones playing the 4 spot instead of Graves, frankly, because Jones DOES have some skills and will shoot the ball. Jones playing the 4, might do what Graves can't--take a little pressure off Izzy. Instead, we have Jones playing outside at the 3 spot--which isn't good because Jones is NOT a good ball handler and she many times makes bad decisions with the ball. Exhibit: 6 turnovers, 0 assists against Wichita State. If you put Jones INSIDE, I predict her turnovers would go down and she might help us more: She could just get the ball, turn and shoot. No decisions, no dribbling, no turnovers! Or maybe we keep Jones at the 3 and just get her closer to the basket--but that doesn't seem to be the way our offense is conceived.
 
#14
#14
armchair said:
Why do fans keep asking why Graves isn't playing like she did as a freshman??? She is! The problem is that she's NOT PLAYING ANY BETTER than she did as a freshman. She has not developed any new skills. She is a fairly athletic rebounder who--for some reason--cannot do much more than rebound. She gets points--but nearly all of them are from offensive rebounds or free throws.
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She's actually not athletic. She can't jump, but she's strong as hell. She's a workhorse who can use her body to box out, and grab rebounds solely on positioning, not some of the crazy, acrobatic one hand grabs that Izzy or Jones can get. Coaching is not going to fix her basic problem, which is that she has no lift.

armchair said:
She has NO real offensive skills--and our coaches apparently have not taught her any in three years. I mean, I'm not sure I've ever seen her perform a basic turnaround jumper in the paint.
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What do you envision with Bashaara? Jump shot? Guards can block that because she doesn't jump. Turnaround? She'll never get the elevation off her feet or her shot to not get the ball sent right back to her. Why try to make her into something she's not?

armchair said:
Graves plays hard, so there is that, and rebounding is important--but it seems like she should be better and more of a force than she is.
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I like her in the role where she boxes out, rebounds, and hits the offensive boards hard. Izzy can be the low post scorer, Bashaara can clean up the misses.

armchair said:
I would like to see Jones playing the 4 spot instead of Graves, frankly, because Jones DOES have some skills and will shoot the ball. Jones playing the 4, might do what Graves can't--take a little pressure off Izzy. If you put Jones INSIDE, I predict her turnovers would go down and she might help us more: She could just get the ball, turn and shoot. No decisions, no dribbling, no turnovers!
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Jones has more upside because she has crazy athleticism. I think playing her inside will help make her more effective and limit her turnovers, but I'm not sure she has the post physicality that Bashaara has. If there are multiple scorers on the floor, Bashaara is very effective. If not, then Jones can provide more offensive options when she's playing the high post.
 
#17
#17
I just don't think holly will take us to a championship,theres something missing.
The girls are playing hard but can't seem to beat good teams.
 
#18
#18
Not sure she has regressed, skill-wise. I think the main problem is that she has been scouted and teams know her tendencies. They know that if you box her out, you basically shut her down. She hasn't expanded her game, and quite frankly, that's on her. She still doesn't have any kind of a perimeter shot and has limited post moves.
 
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#19
#19
W.TN.Orange Blood said:
She's the hardest worker on the team.
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I'm not sure that you can call someone who obviously doesn't invest the time to improve her game the "hardest worker on the team". Just like how Alicia Manning was called the "hardest worker on the team" at UT, yet she never learned how to shoot, either.
 
#20
#20
I watch Graves on the USA team after her freshman year and thought she was fantastic. The little I have seen of her since, she seems like a shell of that USA player and I am not sure why.
Last year it seemed like a level of frustration crept into her game - she would be working hard to battle for position and then a guard would jack up a shot before even looking inside. She just seemed to be completely out of sorts and disconnected to the other players on the floor.
I do think post players are so dependent on guards offensively that if they are not getting fed the ball it can cause a problem - and it is not just getting a pass, but getting a pass at exactly the right moment and in a spot where they can do something with it. They take a physical beating down low and they need to feel it is worth it.
 
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#22
#22
volcrazy89 said:
Not sure she has regressed, skill-wise. I think the main problem is that she has been scouted and teams know her tendencies. They know that if you box her out, you basically shut her down. She hasn't expanded her game, and quite frankly, that's on her. She still doesn't have any kind of a perimeter shot and has limited post moves.
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Nice post.

She hasn't gotten in the gym, when players game stay the same from year to year it means one thing, they didn't work on it. I thought Graves would expand her game or skill to be like Tasha Humphrey at Georgia, same build. Graves needs to get in the gym, she looking like not draftable player at this point.

I would take freshman Graves over this Graves any day, no confidence.
 
#23
#23
Graves has been my favorite Vol for years. I fell in love with her game watching her on the US national team a few years back alongside Stewart and Tuck. I saw an AA in the making. I know she has it in her. I'm waiting for that talent to reemerge.
 
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#24
#24
UCMiami said:
I watch Graves on the USA team after her freshman year and thought she was fantastic. The little I have seen of her since, she seems like a shell of that USA player and I am not sure why.
Last year it seemed like a level of frustration crept into her game - she would be working hard to battle for position and then a guard would jack up a shot before even looking inside. She just seemed to be completely out of sorts and disconnected to the other players on the floor.
I do think post players are so dependent on guards offensively that if they are not getting fed the ball it can cause a problem - and it is not just getting a pass, but getting a pass at exactly the right moment and in a spot where they can do something with it. They take a physical beating down low and they need to feel it is worth it.
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when low posts are in great position and need to get the ball, and a lot of guards and wings miss that moment--don't pass it at the right time, or they pass it at the wrong time.

That said, while Harrison can do things with the ball in the low post, and we hope Russell when she gets back, you can't throw it to Graves in the low post and expect her to score regularly. She's can't do it. She doesn't really have the height or touch or moves to be a natural low post scorer. If she had a move or two, knew how to get the ball and turn quickly and shoot (without dribbling the ball), or fake one way, pivot the other, turn and shoot (without dribbling the ball), she could--but I'm not sure I've EVER seen her do that. She should be able to do it--it's basketball basics--but, hey...
 
#25
#25
Players need to be evaluated in terms of their individual capacities but also their place in the context of a team as well.

Bashaara is comparable to Glory Johnson

As a freshman, I think Bashaara was more effective than Glory. She lacked the athletic gifts of Glory (sprinter speed and phenomenal jumping ability) but she was stronger and had a much better level of effort. And her footwork in the post was much better than Glory's.

Since then, I agree that Bashaara has not improved her game that much. Her mid-range shot is better but she still is not consistent enough. However, she has not just gone from a good to bad player.

As a freshman, she had Simmons, Miko Williams, and Spani as the keys to the offense. That attack was perimeter oriented so teams (or at least many teams) did not pack the paint against the LVs. That defensive approach allowed Graves to have a lot more space and to face fewer double teams. As the attack has become more centered around Izzy (and Graves), teams are now crowding the lane and daring the LVs to beat them on the perimeter. Under these conditions, as noted by other posters, Bashaara's lack of a consistent go to move and limited hops, makes it hard for her to consistently score down low. All I can say for Bashaara, is develop a jump hook shot and a really good pump fake.

Glory's game did not evolve that much either (though she became more polished as an offensive player) but she was such a phenomenal athlete that she could jump over and blow by defenders, even in a crowd.
 
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