Identifying Player Roles

#1

mlindsay

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#1
Good Win over Rutgers but I am getting frustrated because we have a Final Four Team (Talent Wise) but will probably be put out in the second round because of coaching/stubborness. For the life I me I can't see why Holly is so loyal to some (Burdick, Massengale, Graves) and not to others (Nared, Moore, Tucker). Based on the way the players have played as of late a lot of changes needs to be made and roles need to be given. At no time should Reynolds and Carter be in the backcourt together because neither wants to shoot. I also think Jasmine has been outplaying Graves as of late (I could do without the turnovers) but I feel as though she really wants it and should be rewarded, she isn't afraid to throw her body in there and attack the rim, nor is she afraid to take the shot (even if its a bad one). Moving forward players need to be told their roles and be made to stick to that, the only thing they can do outside of their role is rebound/get on the floor for the ball.

Roles are as such
Burdick should rebound only (only time she scores if she's wide open, she hasn't shown that she could be a consistent scorer so why does it seem like she is still trying to fill the stat sheet)? Also why is she playing so many minutes, this is her final year and she is taking away time from the younger players (Nared, Dunbar, Middleton, Tucker) that we could be developing.

Massengale shoot the ball (we saw her hit 5 3s in a row in the first half of a game this season and we need more of that, stop trying to drive to the basket, come off the screen and be our assassin, this is also her last year why are we devoting so much time to her when we could be developing others)

Moore Rebound, Block Shots, Run the floor. We really need her on the floor and for the life of me I can't see how she can't get on the floor? She is no worst that Stokes in UConn and although Stokes finds herself in Geno's dog house he knows he can't leave her there because he never knows when he'll need her.

Izzy Dominate, there aren't many ladies in the NCAA that can jump and play with her when she comes to play, she has to open her mouth and demand the ball. Our last Championship we had a Superstar (Parker) who knew when she could allow her supporting cast to do work but when it was time to take over, she took over.

The Beast Graves has lost some of her confidence imo, Her rookie year she was dominant could it be holly's short lease? IDK but we need her back to Freshman form which means she must also demand the ball and stop putting it on the floor on the offensive rebound. It needs to got straight back up.

Jasmine Jones
She is the key imo to if we will be able to contend. She brings the energy and everything that Nicky Anosike brought us. I remember Anosike guarding PG in the open floor in her Junior and Senior year and Jasmine is a lot stronger and more athletic than Anosike was. She has stepped up offensively and she needs to be told to try to limit her turnovers.

Reynolds
I want the Reynolds from the SEC tournament and the early portion of the NCAA tournament. In a stretch when we couldn't score, she took over (especially in the SC game). She has to be told to attack the rim and try to score, dish if the layup isn't available.

I would also make adjustments to my starting lineup

Starters/Bench
PG-Reynolds/Carter
SG-Middleton/Massengale
SF-Nared/Tucker/Dunbar
PF-Jones/Graves/Burdick
C-Harrison/Moore

Burdick should only see limited minutes unless there is foul trouble.
 
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#2
#2
Good grief. Blah, Blah, Blah!!!!!!!!!!!! We need a committee of some smart VN posters to coach this team. They know more much more about winning than the coaching staff.
 
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#3
#3
mlindsay
I agree with a lot of what you said except your analysis about Moore.
She can score against the cupcakes but her defense is non existent against capable teams.
It was because of her defense that Holly pulled her early in a couple of the games that Izzy didn't play in. She is a real liability on that end of the floor. Also, The way Holly values defense, if Stokes was on the team she would start at center at Izzy would play the 4.
 
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#4
#4
Good grief. Blah, Blah, Blah!!!!!!!!!!!! We need a committee of some smart VN posters to coach this team. They know more much more about winning than the coaching staff.

I know how you feel but it's just a concerned Lady Vol fan expressing his/her concern with the team. Everybody has an opinion and this is a forum.
 
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#5
#5
mlindsay
I agree with a lot of what you said except your analysis about Moore.
She can score against the cupcakes but her defense is non existent against capable teams.
It was because of her defense that Holly pulled her early in a couple of the games that Izzy didn't play in. She is a real liability on that end of the floor. Also, The way Holly values defense, if Stokes was on the team she would start at center at Izzy would play the 4.
But my question is, is Moore's defense any worst than Burdick who seems to always be getting blown by on the dribble or Massengale who can't guard a soul? I just wonder why the lease for some is longer than the lease for others? Because there's gonna come a stretch this season where we're going to need that 6'3" size (South Carolina to be exact) and Playing Burdick or Graves at the backup 5 in those games could get us destroyed.
 
#6
#6
But my question is, is Moore's defense any worst than Burdick who seems to always be getting blown by on the dribble or Massengale who can't guard a soul? I just wonder why the lease for some is longer than the lease for others? Because there's gonna come a stretch this season where we're going to need that 6'3" size (South Carolina to be exact) and Playing Burdick or Graves at the backup 5 in those games could get us destroyed.

Burdick and Massengale played pretty good defense yesterday, IMO. That's the kind of game where playing Burdick alot doesn't hurt them. She was active in the zone, and she was physical with Rutgers' post players and kept them off the glass and out of the lane.

Massengale has to play by default, because she's the only reliable outside shooter on the team. Carter and Reynolds can't/won't shoot; Middleton/Nared can shoot, but their shot has been off so far this season. Until 2 of these players start providing reliable scoring relief for the inside players, Massengale needs to be on the court.

I don't know about Moore. She has height and length, but lacks physicality. I hate to say it, but Burdick would be more effective than Moore against SC, because at least she has some girth. Ibiam/Coates will plow right through Moore.
 
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#7
#7
Good grief. Blah, Blah, Blah!!!!!!!!!!!! We need a committee of some smart VN posters to coach this team. They know more much more about winning than the coaching staff.
Its just about voicing our opinion for which we all have and for some of us we may have played the game at a high level or coached at a level (not just rec, travel or AAU) and we question what she is doing with the talent she has. We aren't the first to do so and wont be the last. For many of us it is frustration from seeing our once dominant Lady Vols fall to mediocracy. We are a storied franchise and it is no reason we should be a Final Four contender every year like UConn! Pat set a standard here and I am not for accepting anything below the standards she's set and that is just my right as a fan. Call it what you want but that's how I feel.
 
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#8
#8
Pat set a standard here and I am not for accepting anything below the standards she's set and that is just my right as a fan. Call it what you want but that's how I feel.

Pat was 0-3 in Final Fours for her last 3 seasons with arguably a more talented group of players. If she was the coach, would you be calling for her head also?
 
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#9
#9
I know how you feel but it's just a concerned Lady Vol fan expressing his/her concern with the team. Everybody has an opinion and this is a forum.

I agree volnation, if you disagree with someone's opinion, so be it. This is a forum and if you expect everyone to agree with everything you say than you are in another world that does not exist. A few of us have coached at some level and certainly are not at Holly's level, however, good, bad, indifferent or whatever the case, we all have opinions. However, why low rate someone just because they love or hate the coaching or does not agree with your opinion? When it is all said and done, frustrated or not, we are all Lady Vol fans. That is the one common thread that ties us together. We are like fighting sisters and brothers we fight within the family but we join together when outsiders try to break in. I have retaliated in the past because someone disagreed with me, however, I am going to try and take the high road. In reality no matter what any of us think, or say, life and the Vols will go on. If you are like me, win, lose, or draw I will always love the Lady Volunteers. Go lady Vols!!!!!
 
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#10
#10
Pat was 0-3 in Final Fours for her last 3 seasons with arguably a more talented group of players. If she was the coach, would you be calling for her head also?
No I wouldn't because her winning in the Past gives her at least a few more seasons as well as the benefit of the doubt. What has Holly done to even warrant getting the position besides being Pat's assistant for 20 plus years? Was she really the best candidate? And I am not calling for Holly's head (Yet) but I would like to see more in your face demand of excellence from her players (not saying that her methods aren't effective) but its like when they win they did everything she asked them to but when we lose its a bunch of excuses. And Holly (imo) has far more talent now than Pat had after losing her last players who have won a title. Pat just ensured that players knew their role or they played the role Pat told them to play without question and if they didn't Pat wasn't afraid to take away things (the good locker room) if they wasn't performing up to task. Trust me I would love nothing better than to see Holly succeed but until she shows that she can beat the teams that have reached the status we once were (ND, Louisville, Stanford, Maryland) and not lose games to teams we should destroy her benefit of the doubt will continue to slowly diminish.
 
#11
#11
Good Win over Rutgers but I am getting frustrated because we have a Final Four Team (Talent Wise) but will probably be put out in the second round because of coaching/stubborness. For the life I me I can't see why Holly is so loyal to some (Burdick, Massengale, Graves) and not to others (Nared, Moore, Tucker). Based on the way the players have played as of late a lot of changes needs to be made and roles need to be given. At no time should Reynolds and Carter be in the backcourt together because neither wants to shoot. I also think Jasmine has been outplaying Graves as of late (I could do without the turnovers) but I feel as though she really wants it and should be rewarded, she isn't afraid to throw her body in there and attack the rim, nor is she afraid to take the shot (even if its a bad one). Moving forward players need to be told their roles and be made to stick to that, the only thing they can do outside of their role is rebound/get on the floor for the ball.

Roles are as such
Burdick should rebound only (only time she scores if she's wide open, she hasn't shown that she could be a consistent scorer so why does it seem like she is still trying to fill the stat sheet)? Also why is she playing so many minutes, this is her final year and she is taking away time from the younger players (Nared, Dunbar, Middleton, Tucker) that we could be developing.

Massengale shoot the ball (we saw her hit 5 3s in a row in the first half of a game this season and we need more of that, stop trying to drive to the basket, come off the screen and be our assassin, this is also her last year why are we devoting so much time to her when we could be developing others)

Moore Rebound, Block Shots, Run the floor. We really need her on the floor and for the life of me I can't see how she can't get on the floor? She is no worst that Stokes in UConn and although Stokes finds herself in Geno's dog house he knows he can't leave her there because he never knows when he'll need her.

Izzy Dominate, there aren't many ladies in the NCAA that can jump and play with her when she comes to play, she has to open her mouth and demand the ball. Our last Championship we had a Superstar (Parker) who knew when she could allow her supporting cast to do work but when it was time to take over, she took over.

The Beast Graves has lost some of her confidence imo, Her rookie year she was dominant could it be holly's short lease? IDK but we need her back to Freshman form which means she must also demand the ball and stop putting it on the floor on the offensive rebound. It needs to got straight back up.

Jasmine Jones
She is the key imo to if we will be able to contend. She brings the energy and everything that Nicky Anosike brought us. I remember Anosike guarding PG in the open floor in her Junior and Senior year and Jasmine is a lot stronger and more athletic than Anosike was. She has stepped up offensively and she needs to be told to try to limit her turnovers.

Reynolds
I want the Reynolds from the SEC tournament and the early portion of the NCAA tournament. In a stretch when we couldn't score, she took over (especially in the SC game). She has to be told to attack the rim and try to score, dish if the layup isn't available.

I would also make adjustments to my starting lineup

Starters/Bench
PG-Reynolds/Carter
SG-Middleton/Massengale
SF-Nared/Tucker/Dunbar
PF-Jones/Graves/Burdick
C-Harrison/Moore

Burdick should only see limited minutes unless there is foul trouble.

Pat...is that you? :):)

GO VOLS!
 
#12
#12
Pat was 0-3 in Final Fours for her last 3 seasons with arguably a more talented group of players. If she was the coach, would you be calling for her head also?

In Pat's last 3 seasons, she was stuck with the last 6-pack who were all a bust except for one, and a bunch of chronically injured players. Not a fair comparison to Holly's current roster.
 
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#13
#13
No I wouldn't because her winning in the Past gives her at least a few more seasons as well as the benefit of the doubt. What has Holly done to even warrant getting the position besides being Pat's assistant for 20 plus years? Was she really the best candidate? And I am not calling for Holly's head (Yet) but I would like to see more in your face demand of excellence from her players (not saying that her methods aren't effective) but its like when they win they did everything she asked them to but when we lose its a bunch of excuses. And Holly (imo) has far more talent now than Pat had after losing her last players who have won a title. Pat just ensured that players knew their role or they played the role Pat told them to play without question and if they didn't Pat wasn't afraid to take away things (the good locker room) if they wasn't performing up to task. Trust me I would love nothing better than to see Holly succeed but until she shows that she can beat the teams that have reached the status we once were (ND, Louisville, Stanford, Maryland) and not lose games to teams we should destroy her benefit of the doubt will continue to slowly diminish.

This Tennessee team looks exactly like all of the previous Tennessee teams. They're big, they rebound, they prioritize defense over offense, and they have a sh!tty offensive execution that relies on one-on-one play, putbacks and steals. When they have a player of a Parker or Holdsclaw caliber, then they win National Championships. When they don't, then they definitely will lose against teams with the star player and could possibly lose against teams with less collective "Hoopgurlz" talent, but more cohesive coaching.

That is what Tennessee basketball always has been. Happened with Pat, it's happening with Holly. No better, no worse. Things didn't change under Pat; they won't change under Holly.
 
#14
#14
In Pat's last 3 seasons, she was stuck with the last 6-pack who were all a bust except for one, and a bunch of chronically injured players. Not a fair comparison to Holly's current roster.

Bjorklund is atop the school records for 3 pt shooting. She would have had even more, but Pat never designed any plays for Angie to score. It was always inside-outside.

Stricklen was the SEC player of the year and a collegiate All American.

Glory was Glory.

Those three alone should have been enough for a FF, let alone all of the complementary pieces they had.

Holly's been criticized for never taming Simmons; when you look back, you'll see that Pat never did that with her 2 years with Meighan either.
 
#15
#15
In Pat's last 3 seasons, she was stuck with the last 6-pack who were all a bust except for one, and a bunch of chronically injured players. Not a fair comparison to Holly's current roster.

We can voice our opinions all we want, and hope for the "good old days" when Pat coached. But the fact is that women's BB has many more very good teams now than during Pat's career. Not taking anything from her, but the competition is much better now. Holly is no Geno, and does not cheat like he does, but her job is tougher than it would have been a few years ago.
 
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#16
#16
Roles are as such
Burdick should rebound only (only time she scores if she's wide open, she hasn't shown that she could be a consistent scorer so why does it seem like she is still trying to fill the stat sheet)? Also why is she playing so many minutes, this is her final year and she is taking away time from the younger players (Nared, Dunbar, Middleton, Tucker) that we could be developing.

Burdick should only see limited minutes unless there is foul trouble.


Given that Burdick hit some clutch shots down the stretch, I am sure glad that the coaching staff won't be taking this sage advice.

The anti-Burdick sentiments on this board never cease to amaze. Yes, Cierra makes some mistakes on the court and misses shots. And which person on the team does not fit that description. However, she generally makes good decisions, knows her role and is a physical presence. The freshman are being brought along correctly, more in minutes against weaker teams and blow out. They are not ready for the BIG games. Nared and Middleton were lost on the floor. And that is not an indictment, it is a fact of being freshman. Their
time will come.
 
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#17
#17
In Pat's last 3 seasons, she was stuck with the last 6-pack who were all a bust except for one, and a bunch of chronically injured players. Not a fair comparison to Holly's current roster.

It is like everything in sports you have down cycles and I believe that Pat and her staff recruited five stars who appeared to be what they needed, with the exception of a Glory Johnson, but were not as good as advertised. Another thing that happened to Pat,at the end of her career, is she no longer had the pick of the chosen ones. Other schools woke up and decided if you are going to beat Pat, you needed to recruit and play like Pat. I also believe that some coaches began to break the recruiting rules, which I do not believe that Pat ever lowered herself to get in the mud with them. I know she believed that Meighan was the shooting guard she needed, however, sometimes and sometimes not. We have to remember that error prone Massengale was recruited by UCONN and she certainly is not who we though she was. Just my opinion but now I think we have the right pieces to make a run in the tournament, they just need to be placed in positions that give the Lady Vols a better chance to win.

I also believe that Holly is in a recruiting era when recruiting top level women basketball talent is a dog eat dog world, similar to the men's game. Honesty and fair play is out the window. She has to wonder a little why some of the top level 2015 post talent has chosen other programs with two going to Baylor. I doubt if many of us could handle the demands of coaching a storied program, replacing a legend, fan expectations, nay sayers, recruiting demands and day to day coaching. However, to accept such a position you have to accept the fact that the heat is going to be hot in the kitchen. We can only hope and pray that somehow, some way it all comes together.
 
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#18
#18
Given that Burdick hit some clutch shots down the stretch, I am sure glad that the coaching staff won't be taking this sage advice.

The anti-Burdick sentiments on this board never cease to amaze. Yes, Cierra makes some mistakes on the court and misses shots. And which person on the team does not fit that description. However, she generally makes good decisions, knows her role and is a physical presence. The freshman are being brought along correctly, more in minutes against weaker teams and blow out. They are not ready for the BIG games. Nared and Middleton were lost on the floor. And that is not an indictment, it is a fact of being freshman. Their
time will come.

Nared had 6 rebounds (4 were offensive at key stretches of the game and only played 10 minutes) Burdick had 6 rebounds and played 27 minutes. Burdick also shot 3-11 from the field, for a total of 6 points and missed her only free throw attempt. The truth is other players (mainly the freshman and Tucker) aren't given the same amount of time to make the mistakes that Burdick and Massengale are allowed to make, we will never know how well they can help us if they start the game and fail on one defensive assignment and never get back in but Burdick and Massengale can make mistake after mistake and never get pulled out and if they do its only for a short period of time. Oh and massengale was 4-12 shooting last night also and playing some at the point guard only netted 1 assist.
 
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#19
#19
Nared had 6 rebounds (4 were offensive at key stretches of the game and only played 10 minutes) Burdick had 6 rebounds and played 27 minutes. Burdick also shot 3-11 from the field, for a total of 6 points and missed her only free throw attempt. The truth is other players (mainly the freshman and Tucker) aren't given the same amount of time to make the mistakes that Burdick and Massengale are allowed to make, we will never know how well they can help us if they start the game and fail on one defensive assignment and never get back in but Burdick and Massengale can make mistake after mistake and never get pulled out and if they do its only for a short period of time. Oh and massengale was 4-12 shooting last night also and playing some at the point guard only netted 1 assist.

If you are going to use stats, then us stats, rather than cherry picking. With the exception of Jones, all the LVs had a crappy shooting % [including Nared who was a scintillating 0-5]. And no, Massengale and Burdick do not make mistake, after mistake [A missed shot is not a mistake per se]. BTW, the team only had 7 assists all night because of the lousy shooting, Carter and Reynolds each only had one assist, so Massengale does not deserve to be singled out here.

I don't get it. The team won a tough game on the road (against an excellent defensive team) with a gritty, collective effort and all you want to do is carp about the freshman not getting enough minutes.

Honestly, I do trust the coaching staff to read the flow of the game and realize which players need to be on the floor.
 
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#20
#20
Bjorklund is atop the school records for 3 pt shooting. She would have had even more, but Pat never designed any plays for Angie to score. It was always inside-outside.

Stricklen was the SEC player of the year and a collegiate All American.

Glory was Glory.

Those three alone should have been enough for a FF, let alone all of the complementary pieces they had.

Holly's been criticized for never taming Simmons; when you look back, you'll see that Pat never did that with her 2 years with Meighan either.

Do you agree that we need a new approach that fits today's offensive game plans? Pat's style worked because it was innovative at the time, dominate inside and just to keep teams honest take it outside. The landscape has shifted to the inside outside game. You can no longer pay little attention to just one part of the game. If Sunday was an indication, the defense, with the right players, is good, but now is time to come up with an effective offensive game plan. I love Pat but we can no longer play her game style. We may all eat our words if next year Russell starts to dominate the game. I just do not think we saw her possibilities because she was playing with feet issues.
 
#21
#21
Do you agree that we need a new approach that fits today's offensive game plans? Pat's style worked because it was innovative at the time, dominate inside and just to keep teams honest take it outside. The landscape has shifted to the inside outside game. You can no longer pay little attention to just one part of the game. If Sunday was an indication, the defense, with the right players, is good, but now is time to come up with an effective offensive game plan. I love Pat but we can no longer play her game style. We may all eat our words if next year Russell starts to dominate the game. I just do not think we saw her possibilities because she was playing with feet issues.

I am sorry but that just is not correct. CPS tried multiple offensive schemes--including working with Phil Jackson to learn about implementing the triangle offense and her long time relationship with Villanova coach Harry Perretta and incorporating his motion offense (which I hated by the way). There were other innovations as well. In fact, if you look toward the end of the CPS tenure, the LVs had some of their highest scoring seasons ever but they melted down against the top flight opponents. The team's ability to match up against the top 5 runs deeper than offensive schemes.
 
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#22
#22
In Pat's last 3 seasons, she was stuck with the last 6-pack who were all a bust except for one, and a bunch of chronically injured players. Not a fair comparison to Holly's current roster.

Not to mention other extenuating circumstances....
 
#24
#24
Do you agree that we need a new approach that fits today's offensive game plans? Pat's style worked because it was innovative at the time, dominate inside and just to keep teams honest take it outside. The landscape has shifted to the inside outside game. You can no longer pay little attention to just one part of the game. If Sunday was an indication, the defense, with the right players, is good, but now is time to come up with an effective offensive game plan. I love Pat but we can no longer play her game style. We may all eat our words if next year Russell starts to dominate the game. I just do not think we saw her possibilities because she was playing with feet issues.

Yes, I agree that the LVs need to run more sophisticated offensive sets. Other teams, namely UConn and ND, are much better at running a crisp offense. However, I don't put the blame squarely at Holly's feet. Tennessee's offense was getting stale even when CPS was still head coach. While CPS did try to incorporate new things, in crunch time, they resorted to old habits quickly (dump the ball to Parker and let her make something happen).

In short, Holly is a 3rd year coach who hasn't yet gotten Tennessee back to the promised land, but hasn't sunk them below where they were when CPS left either. The season is early, and games against ND and Stanford will help provide a more realistic gauge for where this team is than Chattanooga/Texas when playing with an undermanned team.
 
#25
#25
If you are going to use stats, then us stats, rather than cherry picking. With the exception of Jones, all the LVs had a crappy shooting % [including Nared who was a scintillating 0-5]. And no, Massengale and Burdick do not make mistake, after mistake [A missed shot is not a mistake per se]. BTW, the team only had 7 assists all night because of the lousy shooting, Carter and Reynolds each only had one assist, so Massengale does not deserve to be singled out here.

I don't get it. The team won a tough game on the road (against an excellent defensive team) with a gritty, collective effort and all you want to do is carp about the freshman not getting enough minutes.

Honestly, I do trust the coaching staff to read the flow of the game and realize which players need to be on the floor.

Its not about singling her out, what has she done to warrant such loyalty and playing time? She was the 3rd overall prospect coming out and what has she done? I'm looking around the country and freshman as being incorporated in their teams plans and are helping them to victory. They are also being allowed to make mistakes and if they are pulled they are allowed to return into the game. If Burdick and Massengale are pulled they return at the next sub, other players don't have the same luxury and come tournament time the experience the freshmen will be getting will help us tremendously. You wont know what they can do if you don't play them. We know what Burdick and Massengale can do and if thats what she wants to ride with fine but as a fan base we can't get upset when players do not want to come here if they feel as freshman or if they play certain positions they are not coming because of the lack of development or loyalty to some. Players want to play and attend programs to play and not sit, especially if they are high recruits. Geno has the luxury of players transferring for every Top 40 prospect that leaves he rebuild with a Top 3. We get a top 10 lately (They are spose to be game changers) and they leave without a title or final 4 appearance.
 

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