MLS Team in Atlanta

#3
#3
I like Arthur Blank, and I really hope this works out, but the recent expansion into the southeast by mls has been throwing up some major red flags for me.
 
#4
#4
milohimself said:
I like Arthur Blank, and I really hope this works out, but the recent expansion into the southeast by mls has been throwing up some major red flags for me.
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You're right I don't think soccer has the popularity right now to warrant a major expansion of the league. I do think soccer will become a major player in American sports leagues in the years to come however.
 
#5
#5
milohimself said:
I like Arthur Blank, and I really hope this works out, but the recent expansion into the southeast by mls has been throwing up some major red flags for me.
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There's a large Latino population here, some of whom are becoming middle class. I have no idea what MLS ticket prices are like, but if they don't price their biggest potential fanbase out of the stadium then they should do all right. I think the NASL team draws pretty well by the standards of that league.

What worries me is the rapid pace of expansion in general. They managed it so carefully for so long and now they're pretty abruptly doubling the size of the league. I'm glad one of those teams is coming here, but it seems risky.
 
#6
#6
I don't know about Atlanta itself, but people in the area travel and some surrounding states love soccer (NC). I think it could do OK. I try to compare us to the EPL and want to restrict us to 20 teams, but we have 6 times as many people as England and are all spread out. Maybe the answer to growing the sport is expanding and hoping the fans follow rather than waiting for fans to demand it. It worked out that way in Salt Lake. (when I started going to games they were lucky to hit 10,000 and now it's rare that they don't do 18,000).

The MLS has done a pretty good job about keeping costs down and putting a good product on the field. Not a world-class league, but definitely worth paying to watch. Here's to hoping it only gets better.
 
#7
#7
Vercingetorix said:
There's a large Latino population here, some of whom are becoming middle class. I have no idea what MLS ticket prices are like, but if they don't price their biggest potential fanbase out of the stadium then they should do all right. I think the NASL team draws pretty well by the standards of that league.

What worries me is the rapid pace of expansion in general. They managed it so carefully for so long and now they're pretty abruptly doubling the size of the league. I'm glad one of those teams is coming here, but it seems risky.
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The Latino thing is a bit of a red herring. Have you been to Mexico or know much about liga MX? It's a viable league, but la liga is a far bigger product. Mls already made that mistake with Chivas, and they had direct ties to one of the actual big brand names in Mexico.

Mls matches are definitely reasonably priced, but I just don't see anywhere in the Southeast as a viable market. Soccer just doesn't have the cultural relevance to succeed on a level that will move the needle for the league.
 
#8
#8
I've been to Atlanta Silverbacks games and they've been full of Latino fans. The youth league my kid plays in has plenty of Latino kids in it, and I see a bunch of their dads wearing European club jerseys sometimes. When I talk to these guys, they just seem like soccer fans; if there's a quality local product on the field and it's affordable then I think they'll go. I don't think Chivas USA proves that Mexican fans -- and it seems like most of the Latino people I meet around here are not from Mexico anyway -- are too tribal to be interested in any other teams; I think it proves that branding your supposedly major-league team as a JV squad is stupid.

It's not all hayseeds in pickup trucks down here. Atlanta's a big, diverse city within easy driving distance of the entire region. Atlanta supported the hockey team well before terrible ownership torpedoed it; if a soccer team has decent ownership (like Arthur Blank) then I'd expect the city to support them decently too.

I think it's telling that Blank himself is the one pushing it. He wants to own the team; he wants them in the same stadium as the Falcons; he wants to get it done and shut down the talk of the Silverbacks moving up from the NASL. I'd guess he sees it as a long-term play for the future and a hedge against the uncertainty of American football and its injury concerns. I expect to see heavy football/futbol cross-promotion with the Falcons. With him owning the team, I'd expect MLS to do well here.
 
#9
#9
We'll see. That's been done twice so far with the cross promotion of an NFL team: Seattle sounders and new England revolution. Obviously mixed results. Long term I agree with blank that football might be in jeopardy, and that an mls franchise might be a good hedge against that. But that's a long term perspective, and we're realistically looking at the near term here. The recent template for mls success has been organic growth in lower leagues with legitimate grass roots support (not necessarily just patronage) for the brand itself and not just the sport.
 
#10
#10
milohimself said:
We'll see. That's been done twice so far with the cross promotion of an NFL team: Seattle sounders and new England revolution. Obviously mixed results. Long term I agree with blank that football might be in jeopardy, and that an mls franchise might be a good hedge against that. But that's a long term perspective, and we're realistically looking at the near term here. The recent template for mls success has been organic growth in lower leagues with legitimate grass roots support (not necessarily just patronage) for the brand itself and not just the sport.
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Why is the shortsighted view the only "realistic" view? It seems pretty clear that soccer viewership is finally coming to America. Normal American bars -- even down here in the south -- frequently put major soccer events on their TVs. The JCPenny at the mall sells Barcelona and Arsenal jerseys. Maybe some of that will rub off on MLS and maybe it won't, but thanks to the confluence of his new stadium and MLS's desire to expand, right now Arthur Blank has a chance to buy into that future for relatively small change. You don't get to be a billionaire by thinking only in terms of the immediate future.

MLS's biggest challenge continues to be that they're perceived as a minor league. (Especially now that NBC has made the entire Premier League available in the US for free.) Adding 10 new teams isn't going to help that at all. That's the biggest problem facing the league, not where they're putting the teams.
 
#11
#11
One huge hurdle is going to be making the stadium look and feel the part. No freaking lines on the field. It needs to be the home for the football club, not just borrowing the Falcons stadium. If done right, it be a very smart move due to location. I think the southeast is going to suprise a lot of people.
 
#12
#12
orange parmejohn said:
One huge hurdle is going to be making the stadium look and feel the part. No freaking lines on the field. It needs to be the home for the football club, not just borrowing the Falcons stadium. If done right, it be a very smart move due to location. I think the southeast is going to suprise a lot of people.
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It's been reported from the beginning that the stadium was being designed specifically with soccer in mind. I'm going to assume that they're smart enough to figure out how to handle lines on the field.

and-soccer.jpg
 
#13
#13
It is, unfortunately, going to be artificial turf. And if I were in charge of MLS that would be a disqualifier. But they're hellbent to expand the league for some reason and it's probably hard for them to pass up an opportunity where there's an existing stadium deal in place.
 
#14
#14
Vercingetorix said:
Why is the shortsighted view the only "realistic" view? It seems pretty clear that soccer viewership is finally coming to America. Normal American bars -- even down here in the south -- frequently put major soccer events on their TVs. The JCPenny at the mall sells Barcelona and Arsenal jerseys. Maybe some of that will rub off on MLS and maybe it won't, but thanks to the confluence of his new stadium and MLS's desire to expand, right now Arthur Blank has a chance to buy into that future for relatively small change. You don't get to be a billionaire by thinking only in terms of the immediate future.

MLS's biggest challenge continues to be that they're perceived as a minor league. (Especially now that NBC has made the entire Premier League available in the US for free.) Adding 10 new teams isn't going to help that at all. That's the biggest problem facing the league, not where they're putting the teams.
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Presence of European football viewers does not translate to mls ratings. Even here in Portland, crossover is marginal at best. I go to the major premiership bars, and most of the guys take a passing interest in the timbers at best. Likewise, People I talk to at timbers games take a passing interest in Europe.

You mentioned part of the problem -- mls is still widely regarded as a mediocre league. There is some truth to that. The athleticism is on par with almost any league in the world, but the actual footballing talent isn't there. When you look at the successful mls clubs, the common thread is the establishment of genuine community support. Sometimes it's done outside of mls (Portland, Orlando) others, it's done once mls is there. (Seattle, Kansas city).

At the end of the day, Atlanta is just not a great sports town. I really hope blank builds something, but I'm skeptical.
 
#15
#15
Vercingetorix said:
It's been reported from the beginning that the stadium was being designed specifically with soccer in mind. I'm going to assume that they're smart enough to figure out how to handle lines on the field.

and-soccer.jpg
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Seattle and New England havent figured it out. that rendering is pretty sweet. heard on a podcast that red and yellow being mentioned as possible team colors.
 
#16
#16
milohimself said:
Presence of European football viewers does not translate to mls ratings. Even here in Portland, crossover is marginal at best. I go to the major premiership bars, and most of the guys take a passing interest in the timbers at best. Likewise, People I talk to at timbers games take a passing interest in Europe.

You mentioned part of the problem -- mls is still widely regarded as a mediocre league. There is some truth to that. The athleticism is on par with almost any league in the world, but the actual footballing talent isn't there. When you look at the successful mls clubs, the common thread is the establishment of genuine community support. Sometimes it's done outside of mls (Portland, Orlando) others, it's done once mls is there. (Seattle, Kansas city).

At the end of the day, Atlanta is just not a great sports town. I really hope blank builds something, but I'm skeptical.
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I'm not entirely sure this is true. For a city that consists of so many transplant citizens, they support the Falcons, Braves, Hawks, UGA and Georgia Tech all reasonably well. When you're dealing with a city largely inhabited by people who don't have generational ties to these teams, I think they actually turn out pretty nicely. However, trying to get down to Turner Field for a 7:00 weekday game in rush hour traffic can be a hellish experience. Also, the Braves numbers aren't THAT terrible, they simply play in a massive stadium compared to a lot of other MLB parks. Once they get in the stadium in Cobb County that has a 40,000ish capacity, I think it'll look a lot better.

As for putting an MLS team there, I'm pretty excited. I'm a huge EPL fan, but even the other leagues in Europe don't draw a lot of interest on my part. I've never even come close to having any interest in MLS, mainly because it is a sub-standard product, but also because there's never been a team even remotely close to me. I think if there's a semi-local team that I can follow, and also occasionally attend games for, that will go a long way towards helping draw my attention to the league.

The idea of having them share a stadium with the Falcons is a bit concerning to me. It seems like the best environments in the MLS (aside from Seattle) are the soccer only stadiums that have an appropriate number of seats for the amount of people who are likely to show up. A crowd of 15-20k looks pretty good in a stadium that seats about that many, but looks pathetic when they sparsely populate an 80k seat NFL stadium.
 
#17
#17
milohimself said:
Presence of European football viewers does not translate to mls ratings. Even here in Portland, crossover is marginal at best. I go to the major premiership bars, and most of the guys take a passing interest in the timbers at best. Likewise, People I talk to at timbers games take a passing interest in Europe.

You mentioned part of the problem -- mls is still widely regarded as a mediocre league. There is some truth to that. The athleticism is on par with almost any league in the world, but the actual footballing talent isn't there. When you look at the successful mls clubs, the common thread is the establishment of genuine community support. Sometimes it's done outside of mls (Portland, Orlando) others, it's done once mls is there. (Seattle, Kansas city).

At the end of the day, Atlanta is just not a great sports town. I really hope blank builds something, but I'm skeptical.
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If MLS can't even market themselves to existing American soccer fans, then that's a problem. There's no reason why an American fan couldn't support both a European team and an MLS team, like millions of football fans root for both a college and pro team. There's very little overlap and no conflict of interest.

But if MLS can't catch the interest of the millions of Americans who already watch other soccer leagues, and they can't survive in markets without extensive "genuine community support" -- and if you don't mean youth soccer and you don't mean support for an existing lower-level club, then I have no idea what you even mean by that -- then they're stuck being a minor league and yeah, all this expansion (including into Atlanta) is probably doomed. At some point the league has to stand on the product it puts on the field rather than being a function of the local Rotary Club.
 
#18
#18
bleedorange0037 said:
I'm not entirely sure this is true. For a city that consists of so many transplant citizens, they support the Falcons, Braves, Hawks, UGA and Georgia Tech all reasonably well.
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I'm going to have to agree with Milo. It's rare that you see a respectable crowd at Hawks games. Braves have the most volatile attendance in baseball.
 
#19
#19
n_huffhines said:
I'm going to have to agree with Milo. It's rare that you see a respectable crowd at Hawks games. Braves have the most volatile attendance in baseball.
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The Hawks are kind of a tough sell. It feels like they've been mired in mediocrity for as long as I've watched the NBA, which is at least 20 years.

As for the Braves attendance, the majority of their ticket buying fanbase lives in the affluent areas north of town and are forced to fight that hellish rush hour traffic to get down to a crappy part of town that surrounds Turner Field to go to weeknight games. That's the main reason they're moving to Cobb Co.
 
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#20
#20
n_huffhines said:
I'm going to have to agree with Milo. It's rare that you see a respectable crowd at Hawks games. Braves have the most volatile attendance in baseball.
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As I posted earlier in the Predators thread, probably 80 percent of the adult population in Atlanta who can afford to buy tickets to pro sports grew up somewhere else. People here watch and care about pro sports; they just don't watch and care about the local teams. They care about the Pistons and the Indians and the Celtics and the Giants and the Phillies and all the other teams from where they grew up. They didn't switch to the local pro teams when they moved down here any more than I decided to start rooting for UGA football when I did.
 
#22
#22
n_huffhines said:
I'm going to have to agree with Milo. It's rare that you see a respectable crowd at Hawks games. Braves have the most volatile attendance in baseball.
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I have to agree, Atlanta isn't really a great sports town. They've lost 2 NHL teams, the Hawks have terrible crowds, and the Braves and Falcons are supported but even they seem to have trouble filling up. Plus I hate to say it but Atlanta comes off as a really bandwagon city. I know to an extent everywhere is like that, but when the Braves and Falcons are sucking, they don't draw well at all.

As far as Georgia Tech, they don't get near the support they used to. Their football stadium isn't really that big and they still struggle to fill it.

I'm with Milo, I'm highly skeptical an MLS team will succeed there.
 
#23
#23
Vercingetorix said:
As I posted earlier in the Predators thread, probably 80 percent of the adult population in Atlanta who can afford to buy tickets to pro sports grew up somewhere else. People here watch and care about pro sports; they just don't watch and care about the local teams. They care about the Pistons and the Indians and the Celtics and the Giants and the Phillies and all the other teams from where they grew up. They didn't switch to the local pro teams when they moved down here any more than I decided to start rooting for UGA football when I did.
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What difference does it make where they are from if they don't go to the games? Just trying to understand your point.
 
#24
#24
n_huffhines said:
What difference does it make where they are from if they don't go to the games? Just trying to understand your point.
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Why And How Much Atlanta Fans Suck is a frequent topic of discussion -- on this message board, on TV, etc. Almost everyone misses the fundamental dynamic involved.

As far as what difference it makes -- well, it might well make a big difference when you're contemplating how an MLS team might do here. Contrary to popular opinion, this is not a city full of people who don't care about anything but college football. This is a city full of sports fans. A new team in a sport that many Americans are just starting to pay attention to probably has a chance to capture some of Atlanta's transplants in a way that the Hawks and the Falcons and the Braves never did.
 
#25
#25
I might concede some ground there. The timbers has great early grassroots support by locals, but the raucous behemoth that is the current iteration of the timbers army has just as many east Portland (read: transplants) as natives. However, the common thread is the social interaction and alternative culture manifested in sport.

The strength of support for a franchise in Atlanta is going to come from the millennial crowd. I'm not sure what that element is like in Atlanta.
 
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