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About this Page -- This is a discussion on Muhammad Ali -vs- Joe Louis Page 5. within the forum Sports Forum. Originally Posted by n_huffhines Why do you think that's fair? Do you have any justification, or it just sounds good? ...

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Old 05-01-2012, 10:25 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Why do you think that's fair? Do you have any justification, or it just sounds good?

They never fight anybody outside of the top 10.
I think I may have misinterpreted what you were asking when I wrote the above response. Let me try this again.

You question is: why do I think it is fair to assume that the 10-50 fighters do not deviate substantially from generation to generation? Am I understanding that right?

Because this is essentially akin to saying; "I'll tell you what, these minor league baseball players these days, they just ain't what they used to be".

I mean, how in the heck would that happen? With fighters, the 10-50 are the middle of the bell curve. The only way that the quality of those guys is going to be either appreciably better or worse from generation to generation is as a result of either a massive increase or decrease in the number of young people going into the sport.

So, if it turns out that baseball participation in the little leagues and up through middle school is 50% less now than it was was 30 years ago, then you would see a consequent general decline in the quality of play of minor league baseball players. This would make perfect sense because some percentage among the pool of kids that played another sport instead baseball are better athletes than the kids that played baseball. And because that better athlete isn't playing, a worse athlete has to fill that spot in the minor leagues.

But in the absent of general increase of decrease in participation in the sport at the youth level, I can't come up with anything that would explain why your average fighters would be different from era to era.

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Old 05-02-2012, 08:53 AM   #62 (permalink)
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This one of those things where everybody has a different story. And the version that says he wasn't getting off his stool come from Frazier's camp. I'm not buying it. I saw an interview with Ferdie Pachecho where he said emphatically that Ali would have fought the 15th.
I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything because I still have no clue if it's true or not but the stories saying that Ali wasn't going to fight the 15th don't all come from the Frazier camp. According to Thomas Hauser, one of the guys in Ali's corner (unidentified who specifically) said that Ali was yelling to "cut 'em off" after 14.

Like you said, it wouldn't have been the first time that Dundee had pushed Ali out of the corner when he didn't want to go so he probably does go out if it continued. I do, however, think there's enough stories out there that lend credence to the fact that he seriously wanted to quit that fight. For his own good, Frazier needed to quit but there's no one from either side that says he wanted to quit the fight, even if it cost him his other eye.
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Old 05-04-2012, 10:47 PM   #63 (permalink)
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I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything because I still have no clue if it's true or not but the stories saying that Ali wasn't going to fight the 15th don't all come from the Frazier camp.

(1)
According to Thomas Hauser, one of the guys in Ali's corner (unidentified who specifically) said that Ali was yelling to "cut 'em off" after 14.

Like you said, it wouldn't have been the first time that Dundee had pushed Ali out of the corner when he didn't want to go so he probably does go out if it continued. I do, however, think there's enough stories out there that lend credence to the fact that he seriously wanted to quit that fight.

(2)
For his own good, Frazier needed to quit but there's no one from either side that says he wanted to quit the fight, even if it cost him his other eye.
(1)
Interesting. I still think he would have fought the 15th round -- again, even if it was Dundee pushing him out there -- if the fight hadn't been stopped. But that's interesting. I've never heard Hauser say that.

(2)
I can't disagree with this. Frazier definitely definitely wanted to go on. You can watch him in the corner arguing with Eddie Futch. Frazier actually remained angry at Futch for years for stopping the fight. But I've never heard anybody question Futch's decision to stop it. And Futch himself always said he would do the same thing again.

I hate that fight, btw. It isn't fun for me to watch.

I mentioned it before, but "Ghosts of Manilla" is a book I would recommend reading. Here is a Bill Simmons essay on the book and the fight.

Bill Simmons breaks down the epic book Ghosts of Manila, on a legendary battle between boxers - Grantland
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Old 05-06-2012, 12:24 AM   #64 (permalink)
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Probably go with Joe Louis
How Joe Louis Would have Beaten Muhammad Ali
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