Muhammad Ali -vs- Joe Louis

[shelbyvillevol]

Originally Posted by NochNoch

Wepner probably weighed somewhere between 220 and 230 when he fought Ali.

Very true, but that and the ability to take a punch was all he had going for him. He was a below average puncher. You take somebody who could take punishment in the capacity that Wepner could, and add top-notch punching power, and you get Marciano.

[volinreallife]

Rocky Marciano all day everyday.

[NochNoch]

Originally Posted by shelbyvillevol

Very true, but that and the ability to take a punch was all he had going for him. He was a below average puncher. You take somebody who could take punishment in the capacity that Wepner could, and add top-notch punching power, and you get Marciano.

Except for the part where you have to subtract close to 40 pounds to make that equation accurate. Nine times out of ten, significantly smaller fighters will get overwhelmed throughout the course of a fight. Nine times out of ten, slower fighters will get overwhelmed throughout the course of a fight. In a fight with Ali, Marciano would have been the smaller fighter and the slower fighter. Not good odds.

[volinreallife]

Originally Posted by NochNoch

Except for the part where you have to subtract close to 40 pounds to make that equation accurate. Nine times out of ten, significantly smaller fighters will get overwhelmed throughout the course of a fight. Nine times out of ten, slower fighters will get overwhelmed throughout the course of a fight. In a fight with Ali, Marciano would have been the smaller fighter and the slower fighter. Not good odds.

And the main thing you left out is, Heart. Rocky had enough of that for ten people. We all know Ali is one of the best skilled fighters, but sometimes that will not carry you to the win.

[Coach Grizz]

Coming to America - Barbershop Boxers - YouTube

[shelbyvillevol]

Originally Posted by NochNoch

Except for the part where you have to subtract close to 40 pounds to make that equation accurate. Nine times out of ten, significantly smaller fighters will get overwhelmed throughout the course of a fight. Nine times out of ten, slower fighters will get overwhelmed throughout the course of a fight. In a fight with Ali, Marciano would have been the smaller fighter and the slower fighter. Not good odds.

I think Marciano's weight was partly due to the size of his competition. I assume he probably would have packed on some weight had he felt the need to, although his 5'11" frame probably would not have allowed him to gain too much. I think he did fight in the low 190's at least a couple times.

[NochNoch]

Originally Posted by volinreallife

And the main thing you left out is, Heart. Rocky had enough of that for ten people. We all know Ali is one of the best skilled fighters, but sometimes that will not carry you to the win.

This is actually strange for me because I am the one defending Ali and I would have never rooted for him if I'd been around to see his fights, but you make it sound like heart was something Ali didn't also possess.

Maybe nobody else to ever get in the ring could've gone through those fights with Frazier and somehow come out with 2 wins (albeit, baaaarrrreeelllyyy). Not to mention taking out Foreman when he was thought to be invincible and people were more concerned if his opponents would survive rather than if they had a chance to win.

[n_huffhines]

Originally Posted by NochNoch

This is actually strange for me because I am the one defending Ali and I would have never rooted for him if I'd been around to see his fights, but you make it sound like heart was something Ali didn't also possess.

Maybe nobody else to ever get in the ring could've gone through those fights with Frazier and somehow come out with 2 wins (albeit, baaaarrrreeelllyyy). Not to mention taking out Foreman when he was thought to be invincible and people were more concerned if his opponents would survive rather than if they had a chance to win.

It's a great win, but if Buster Douglas can beat the invincible Mike Tyson, why is it such a surprise that the supposed GOAT beat the invincible Foreman when he came in unready to go past 4 rounds?

[volinreallife]

Originally Posted by NochNoch

This is actually strange for me because I am the one defending Ali and I would have never rooted for him if I'd been around to see his fights, but you make it sound like heart was something Ali didn't also possess.

Maybe nobody else to ever get in the ring could've gone through those fights with Frazier and somehow come out with 2 wins (albeit, baaaarrrreeelllyyy). Not to mention taking out Foreman when he was thought to be invincible and people were more concerned if his opponents would survive rather than if they had a chance to win.

He was smarter than Foreman. Rocky knocked out Joe Louis, so if anybody has a shot at Ali it is Rocky

[volinreallife]

Originally Posted by n_huffhines

It's a great win, but if Buster Douglas can beat the invincible Mike Tyson, why is it such a surprise that the supposed GOAT beat the invincible Foreman when he came in unready to go past 4 rounds?

Foreman was ready for more than 4 he just punched himself out in the first 3. He thought he was doing way more damage than he was.

[n_huffhines]

Originally Posted by volinreallife

Foreman was ready for more than 4 he just punched himself out in the first 3. He thought he was doing way more damage than he was.

Maybe he was ready for more than 4, but if you can punch your way out in 3 rounds, you were in no condition to go close to the distance.

[NochNoch]

Originally Posted by n_huffhines

It's a great win, but if Buster Douglas can beat the invincible Mike Tyson, why is it such a surprise that the supposed GOAT beat the invincible Foreman when he came in unready to go past 4 rounds?

George Foreman circa the early 1970's was fighting 3 or 4, and, except for Ali, beating, tougher fighters than Tyson ever fought when he was supposedly "dominant". The watered down heavyweight division of the 1980's made Tyson look a lot more invincible than he ever really was, or at least ever proved by who was beating.

[n_huffhines]

Originally Posted by NochNoch

George Foreman circa the early 1970's was fighting 3 or 4, and, except for Ali, beating, tougher fighters than Tyson ever fought when he was supposedly "dominant". The watered down heavyweight division of the 1980's made Tyson look a lot more invincible than he ever really was, or at least ever proved by who was beating.

K, I get all that, but if you are the GOAT, I don't think any of your victories that came during your prime should be considered shocking. People seem to still be amazed by it 40 years later.

And Mike Tyson is a lot closer to Foreman (if not better) than Buster Douglas is to Ali. Like I said, if Buster can do it, I'd expect it from the GOAT.

[DeepSpringsVol]

Give me the BROWN BOMBER.

[NochNoch]

Originally Posted by n_huffhines

And Mike Tyson is a lot closer to Foreman (if not better) than Buster Douglas is to Ali. Like I said, if Buster can do it, I'd expect it from the GOAT.

I get what you're saying about the comparison but I think that the Foreman that walked into the ring with Ali in that fight woul absolutely walk through Tyson at his peak.