Muhammad Ali -vs- Joe Louis

[kidbourbon]

Originally Posted by n_huffhines

Frazier kicked Ali's ass twice. He just happened to win only one of them (he beat Ali to a pulp, and then his one good eye sealed shut and he fought blind for the last 3 or 4 rounds). Frazier was a damn warrior.

Ali was hospitalized for a couple hours after the first fight. Frazier was hospitalized for two weeks.

Ali kicked his ass royally in the second fight.

They both whupped up each other in the third fight. but there is a very good reason Eddie Futch stopped it before the 15th round: his fighter was defenseless and that is how fighters die in the ring.

Frazier was a damn warrior, sure.* But if Ali fights Frazier in 1968 or 1969 (assuming Ali never got his license revoked), he beats Frazier easily. Way more easily than he beat him the second fight.

*So was Ali

[kidbourbon]

Originally Posted by NochNoch

Yeah, he did, but a lot of them wouldn't make me think he was a better man.

He deserves most of all the praise he gets as a boxer, it's the mythology about the man himself that has always baffled me.

I agree.

I love Ali as a sportsman, but he gets romanticized way too much for the stuff outside the ring. Nothing that he did was of his own volition. It was Elijah Muhammad. Ali was puppet.

I would urge everybody to read "Ghosts of Manilla"

[kidbourbon]

Originally Posted by shelbyvillevol

Level of competition is the one variable, when discussing which boxer was better, that is hardest to gauge.

Ali v. Louis is easy to gauge. It would have been a mismatch. The Ali in his prime '64-'67 would have thoroughly dominated Joe Louis.

Ali moved significantly better.
Ali had significantly faster hands.
Ali was a significantly larger man (height, weight, and reach)
Ali was a better boxer.

It wouldn't have been an even fight at all.

Jack Johnson in his prime would have also dominated Louis.

[kidbourbon]

This is Ali and Cus D'Amato talking about this very subject. Good stuff.

Muhammad ALI vs Joe Louis & Cus D'Amato - YouTube




YouTube Link

How does one embed a youtube clip?

[Edit] figured it out

[kidbourbon]

Originally Posted by shelbyvillevol

Ali was the greatest talker of All-Time, but not the greatest boxer.

I'd take Marciano over wither one of them. Don't forget he beat Joe Louis.

You know nothing about boxing then. Seriously. Saying that Marciano would beat Ali is silly, and can't even be taken seriously.

Ali would have made Marciano look like an amateur. Do you really think that a 5-10 188lb man could beat Ali in a boxing match? Keeping in mind that this 5-10 188lb man is also *appreciably* slower than Ali. He would have had difficulty landing a solid punch. Watch Ali v. Chuvalo and then imagine Ali fighting a smaller version of Chuvalo. That's what it would look like.

Ali was 6-3 1/2 and 214 and moved better than any heavyweight before or since.

Also, Marciano never fought any better worth a crap. His best win was against Walcott. When he fought Joe Louis, Louis was 123 years old.

[Crew]

I'd feel stupid for picking anyone but Ali.

[kidbourbon]

Originally Posted by n_huffhines

Agreed. It's impossible to compare talent levels over time. I hate it when people say, "This is a down year for pro _______."

So you would disagree that professional tennis was much much worse in 2001-2005 than it has been between 2008-present? Or you would think it is impossible to say?


Because you would be wrong. It is very possible to make that comparison and subsequent statement. The evidence supports it fully. I hope I dont' have to take time to show all the evidence. I hope you would concede that an era where andy roddick and lleyton Hewitt were the two best players was an exception weak area. Miles weaker than an era where Roger Federer, Rafa Nadal, and Novak Djokovic are the best players.

[kidbourbon]

Originally Posted by Crew

I'd feel stupid for picking anyone but Ali.

The only guy in history that might be able to beat Ali in his prime is Lennox Lewis in his prime.

Ali fought a ton of guys that were as big as Lewis. But he never fought a guy as big as Lewis that was as good a boxer as Lewis. I'm not saying that Lewis is the 2nd best heavyweight of all time. I just think he would present Ali with some matchup problems.

[n_huffhines]

Originally Posted by kidbourbon

Ali was hospitalized for a couple hours after the first fight. Frazier was hospitalized for two weeks.

Ali kicked his ass royally in the second fight.

They both whupped up each other in the third fight. but there is a very good reason Eddie Futch stopped it before the 15th round: his fighter was defenseless and that is how fighters die in the ring.

Frazier was a damn warrior, sure.* But if Ali fights Frazier in 1968 or 1969 (assuming Ali never got his license revoked), he beats Frazier easily. Way more easily than he beat him the second fight.

*So was Ali

Decades later Ali can't even function. That's attributed to Frazier, mostly.

Royally kicked his ass? He won, but one judge scored it 6-5-1. It wasn't all that one-sided.

I agree they needed to stop the third fight, but this is exactly why I think Frazier is the better fighter. With only one good eye he kicked the supposed GOAT's ass, and the GOAT couldn't even finish him when he was down to 0 good eyes.

There's no way to know who would have won if a fight happened in 1968. Pure speculation.

[n_huffhines]

Originally Posted by kidbourbon

So you would disagree that professional tennis was much much worse in 2001-2005 than it has been between 2008-present? Or you would think it is impossible to say?


Because you would be wrong. It is very possible to make that comparison and subsequent statement. The evidence supports it fully. I hope I dont' have to take time to show all the evidence. I hope you would concede that an era where andy roddick and lleyton Hewitt were the two best players was an exception weak area. Miles weaker than an era where Roger Federer, Rafa Nadal, and Novak Djokovic are the best players.

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. You are looking at just the top 2 or 3 players, and making the comparison. Yeah maybe the guys in spots 1-3 sucked in 2002, but how do you know the players ranked 10-50 aren't way better than the guys today?


Also, we can compare Roddick to Feder because they've played each other. What we can't do is compare Roddick to Arthur Ashe. There's no way to know who would win.

[Slydell]

Originally Posted by kidbourbon

I agree.

I love Ali as a sportsman, but he gets romanticized way too much for the stuff outside the ring. Nothing that he did was of his own volition. It was Elijah Muhammad. Ali was puppet.

I would urge everybody to read "Ghosts of Manilla"

I'll just stick with my opinion of Ali. Thanks.

[Vols520]

Originally Posted by Slydell

I'll just stick with my opinion of Ali. Thanks.

Stop being a baby. It's a message board.

[Slydell]

Originally Posted by Vols520

Stop being a baby. It's a message board.

I really have no idea what you mean. Honestly. Maybe, you don't either. I don't know.

[shelbyvillevol]

Originally Posted by kidbourbon

You know nothing about boxing then. Seriously. Saying that Marciano would beat Ali is silly, and can't even be taken seriously.

Ali would have made Marciano look like an amateur. Do you really think that a 5-10 188lb man could beat Ali in a boxing match? Keeping in mind that this 5-10 188lb man is also *appreciably* slower than Ali. He would have had difficulty landing a solid punch. Watch Ali v. Chuvalo and then imagine Ali fighting a smaller version of Chuvalo. That's what it would look like.

Ali was 6-3 1/2 and 214 and moved better than any heavyweight before or since.

Also, Marciano never fought any better worth a crap. His best win was against Walcott. When he fought Joe Louis, Louis was 123 years old.

You can say that all day, but that's simply not true. Marciano's measureables is not what made him great.

Take Clay's fight with Chuck Wepner and multiply Wepner's ability by about 50x and you get Marciano. if Wepner can get the best of Ali for even 1 knockdown, Marciano would have had alot more success.

[NochNoch]

Originally Posted by shelbyvillevol

Take Clay's fight with Chuck Wepner and multiply Wepner's ability by about 50x and you get Marciano. if Wepner can get the best of Ali for even 1 knockdown, Marciano would have had alot more success.

Wepner probably weighed somewhere between 220 and 230 when he fought Ali.