Run Game Misconception

#26
#26
I don't really agree with that either. Either type of running back can be effective, regardless of the running ability of the QB. Look at Travis Stephens for UT. We didn't have a running QB when we he broke the schools single season rushing record, and I would never consider him to be a "power" running back.

that's true stephens wasn't a power runner, but that's the exception, not the rule.

you don't need jamal lewis to have a "power" running game.

but, you do need a guy that hits the hole hard and puts his head down and doesn't go down with a small amount of contact.
 
#27
#27
that's true stephens wasn't a power runner, but that's the exception, not the rule.

you don't need jamal lewis to have a "power" running game.

but, you do need a guy that hits the hole hard and puts his head down and doesn't go down with a small amount of contact.

But thanks to the wonderful laws of physics, can't I get the same "power" from a speed back who hits the hole at full speed?

I agree though, it is important to have a guy who can get that tough yard when you need it.
 
#28
#28
But thanks to the wonderful laws of physics, can't I get the same "power" from a speed back who hits the hole at full speed?

I agree though, it is important to have a guy who can get that tough yard when you need it.

in theory, i am sure you can.

the problem is how many games and how often can you have that dude get hammered during the season.

one of the reasons why i find warrick dunn to be one of the most remarkable players i have ever seen.
 
#29
#29
SEC defense is so strong and fast you have to have a power game to run in the SEC. Look at Oregon stats against LSU last ear they did not get 100 yards rushing. Look at how LSU and Bama running games beats and wears down a defense till they score and pull away by the 4th quarter.
 
#30
#30
1. You don't need an athletic QB to use zone schemes, not all zone teams are zone read teams. Do you remeber John Elway's super bowl season? How about Terrell Davis' 2,000 yard season? See Alabama under Nick Saban example of that.

2. The zone has been around for years. It's not going anywhere, just like isolation or power. It's here to stay.

3. Once again the zone has been around forever. I want to say it started in the 1970's. The Denver Bronco's were def. running it as early as 1995. I believe Alex Gibbs was teaching it as early as the mid 1980's.

4. Any offenensive philosophy that is sound and simple will be effective. I don't care how smart the d coordinator is, he only has 11 men to guard my 11. The option is still effective. The run n shoot offense is still effective. The single wing made a comeback in the form of the wildcat. The only reason SEC teams don't run the option is because elite players want to play in pro style offenses. They know that being an option QB, you will never get drafted number 1.
1. You are confusing zone blocking (which Denver used) with zone read or whatever you want to call what Florida ran. Many of UF's running plays were based on the QB reading what the defensive end did. If the end crashes, the QB pitches the ball, if the DE drifts with the RB, the QB keeps the ball and runs through the hole created by the DE. You absolutely need an athletic QB to run this offense as he is an additional running back. Alabama is not running the same offense UF ran.

2. Never said it was going away, but offenses come and go . Certain aspects will stay around but offenses definitely change with time.

3. So are you saying that if a defense has faced the same type of offense often, they won't be better prepared for it. That is ridiculous, defense is based on reading what an offense is going to do and putting yourselves in the best position to stop it. The more the defense can ascertain what the offense is going to do, the less points the offense will score.

4. The primary reason the option died is because defenses changed drastically from the 70's early 80's. Speed became key in stopping the option. Teams started converting running backs to linebackers and started playing more 3-4 type defenses. If your analysis is correct, then why have you never seen the option in the NFL since they wouldn't have to worry about making recruits happy?
 
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#31
#31
SEC defense is so strong and fast you have to have a power game to run in the SEC. Look at Oregon stats against LSU last ear they did not get 100 yards rushing. Look at how LSU and Bama running games beats and wears down a defense till they score and pull away by the 4th quarter.

Tell that to Alabama, Auburn, and South Carolina. All of them are also zone teams.
 
#32
#32
1. You are confusing zone blocking (which Denver used) with zone read or whatever you want to call what Florida ran. Many of UF's running plays were based on the QB reading what the defensive end did. If the end crashes, the QB pitches the ball, if the DE drifts with the RB, the QB keeps the ball and runs through the hole created by the DE. You absolutely need an athletic QB to run this offense as he is an additional running back. Alabama is not running the same offense UF ran.

2. Never said it was going away, but offenses come and go . Certain aspects will stay around but offenses definitely change with time.

3. So are you saying that if a defense has faced the same type of offense often, they won't be better prepared for it. That is ridiculous, defense is based on reading what an offense is going to do and putting yourselves in the best position to stop it. The more the defense can ascertain what the offense is going to do, the less points the offense will score.

4. The primary reason the option died is because defenses changed drastically from the 70's early 80's. Speed became key in stopping the option. Teams started converting running backs to linebackers and started playing more 3-4 type defenses. If your analysis is correct, then why have you never seen the option in the NFL since they wouldn't have to worry about making recruits happy?

1. The blocking of inside zone is exactly the same as inside zone read. The only difference is that you run the read out of the shotgun and let your qb read the DE. Under center, you still leave the DE but you use the bootleg fake by the QB to hold the DE.

2. You still don't know what you're talking about because the play you are describing is speed option. You don't "pitch" on a typical zone read play. You either keep or give.

Alabama did use the same blocking scheme as Florida. Florida ran more outside zone and Alabama uses more inside zone, but both are zone running teams. Sure they are not completely alike, but that's because one team runs pro style zone (like Denver) and the other runs the spread zone read version. Still the exact same blocking scheme though.

3. Yes, a defense does get better at defending an offense the more they see it, but if the offense is based on sound principles and has proper constraint plays built in to prevent a defense from overplaying, then it doesn't matter how often a defense has seen it.

4. They don't run the option in the NFL because of how expensive Qbs are. You don't sign a 100 million dollar contract with a guy, and then run the option with him. The option never died. Look at Air Force and Georgia Tech. It is not as widely used as it was, but that comes back to the NFL and QB contracts, along with improved rules to help the vertical passing game.
 
#33
#33
1. The blocking of inside zone is exactly the same as inside zone read. The only difference is that you run the read out of the shotgun and let your qb read the DE. Under center, you still leave the DE but you use the bootleg fake by the QB to hold the DE.

2. You still don't know what you're talking about because the play you are describing is speed option. You don't "pitch" on a typical zone read play. You either keep or give.

Alabama did use the same blocking scheme as Florida. Florida ran more outside zone and Alabama uses more inside zone, but both are zone running teams. Sure they are not completely alike, but that's because one team runs pro style zone (like Denver) and the other runs the spread zone read version. Still the exact same blocking scheme though.

3. Yes, a defense does get better at defending an offense the more they see it, but if the offense is based on sound principles and has proper constraint plays built in to prevent a defense from overplaying, then it doesn't matter how often a defense has seen it.

4. They don't run the option in the NFL because of how expensive Qbs are. You don't sign a 100 million dollar contract with a guy, and then run the option with him. The option never died. Look at Air Force and Georgia Tech. It is not as widely used as it was, but that comes back to the NFL and QB contracts, along with improved rules to help the vertical passing game.

I know as much as you do. I played college football and have coached football for many years.

We are talking about two different items. I was referring to the spread option that UF ran where you were referring to zone blocking. The QB rides the RB with the ball in his gut and reads the DE and decides what to do based on the DE. My bad on saying pitch. Although there are plays where he has an option to pitch the ball. You absolutely need a athletic QB to run the spread option - that is what I was referring to. Of course you don't need a athletic QB to hand off the ball. Let's get on the same page - zone blocking vs. spread option. That is what I was referring to.

Never said Alabama didn't use the same blocking scheme as UF - I was referring to the overall offense, not blocking schemes.

Of course the option is not completely dead, but my reference to dead was in relation to the number of teams that ran 30 years ago compared to now.
 
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#34
#34
I know as much as you do. I played college football and have coached football for many years.

We are talking about two different items. I was referring to the spread option that UF ran where you were referring to zone blocking. The QB rides the RB with the ball in his gut and reads the DE and decides what to do based on the DE. My bad on saying pitch. Although there are plays where he has an option to pitch the ball. You absolutely need a athletic QB to run the spread option - that is what I was referring to. Of course you don't need a athletic QB to hand off the ball. Let's get on the same page - zone blocking vs. spread option. That is what I was referring to.

Never said Alabama didn't use the same blocking scheme as UF - I was referring to the overall offense, not blocking schemes.

Of course the option is not completely dead, but my reference to dead was in relation to the number of teams that ran 30 years ago compared to now.

I'm refering to zone blocking because Florida ran a ton of outside zone read when they had Tebow. They also ran something called bash. Which is outside zone read, except the RB goes opposite to hold the DE. Then if the DE goes with the RB, Tebow would keep it.

You are right though, they would run a triple option look off of the zone read. Rich Rod and Chip Kelly use that a lot too.

My entire reasoning behind including Florida, Alabama, and Oregon all in the same category is because my original post was about zone blocking as opposed to man, power, or gap schemes. All three of those teams, although they all ran it a bit different, were zone based attacks.

I don't know if offenses really die due to the defense. I think it has more to do with a popularity contest. Everyone wants to run the hottest newest offense (even though everything is just recycled, look at the single wing/wildcat for an example). When someone else does something they perceive as newer and more popular, I think there's a lot of coaches in the country who believe their team has to try and fit in.
 
#35
#35
John Elway was not used in the running game. Denver did not use zone read with Elway. They used bootleg plays from under center, the same way most pro style zone teams do. Look at the Texans. All they run is zone. Schaub isn't a statue, but they are using him for his feet in that offense. Look at Alabama. None of Saban's Qbs have been athletic.

John Elway wasn't used in the running game? Do you have a clue what you are talking about or do you just try and act like it? If Elway wasn't used in the running game is that why he ranks 1st all time in rushing attempts by a qb (774) and 6th in all time in rushing yards by a qb (3417)? He is considered one of the best running quarterbacks in the history of the NFL so I think you may be confused.
 
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#36
#36
Tell that to Alabama, Auburn, and South Carolina. All of them are also zone teams.

True, but they all utilize power backs. Zone blocking is most effective when you can use it to confuse the defense as to where the play is headed. Having a road-grading OLine and a power back makes the job easier once you've got the D off balance.
 
#37
#37
True, but they all utilize power backs. Zone blocking is most effective when you can use it to confuse the defense as to where the play is headed. Having a road-grading OLine and a power back makes the job easier once you've got the D off balance.

Debatable, but the entire point of my argument is that zone blocking is in no way inferior to other schemes.
 
#38
#38
John Elway wasn't used in the running game? Do you have a clue what you are talking about or do you just try and act like it? If Elway wasn't used in the running game is that why he ranks 1st all time in rushing attempts by a qb (774) and 6th in all time in rushing yards by a qb (3417)? He is considered one of the best running quarterbacks in the history of the NFL so I think you may be confused.

Over Elway's last four years of his career (the years with Alex Gibbs), he averaged 11.51 rushing yards per game. He was not a major part of that running game. Sure, maybe he would keep the ball on one or two bootlegs a game, or take off when nothing was open downfield, but I don't think you can consider 11.51 yards per game to be a significant portion of the running game.

Just because Elway had wheels, didn't mean they used em a lot. Big Ben can run, Steve Young could run, Aaron Rogers can run, but none of them have/had significant roles in their teams rushing attacks.
 
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#40
#41
#42
#42
John Elway was not used in the running game. Denver did not use zone read with Elway. They used bootleg plays from under center, the same way most pro style zone teams do. Look at the Texans. All they run is zone. Schaub isn't a statue, but they are using him for his feet in that offense. Look at Alabama. None of Saban's Qbs have been athletic.

you don't have a clue what you're talking about, and even if you did, you're boring. call this the " i'm gonna use big words and pretend to be a coach " thread.

why can't you just tell made up stories about running into players at wal-mart like everyone else??
 
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#43
#43
you don't have a clue what you're talking about, and even if you did, you're boring. call this the " i'm gonna use big words and pretend to be a coach " thread.

why can't you just tell made up stories about running into players at wal-mart like everyone else??

Which one of those words was too big for you "Alabama" or "athletic"?
 
#44
#44
You've never heard of the Denver Broncos, have you? They had two fullbacks they converted to RB who ran for 1,000. They drafted T. Davis in the 7th round I believe. They had a constantly revolving door at RB for years, but they always produced.

You're right, they've been successful with a lot of no name backs, but TD was special.. And u see what happens when u put a special back in an offense like that.. If not for injury, he could've been one of the best of all time in that system.
 
#45
#45
You're right, they've been successful with a lot of no name backs, but TD was special.. And u see what happens when u put a special back in an offense like that.. If not for injury, he could've been one of the best of all time in that system.

I def. agree with that. Some of the plays he made were unreal. Few backs have that size speed combo, and such toughness.
 
#46
#46
True, but they all utilize power backs. Zone blocking is most effective when you can use it to confuse the defense as to where the play is headed. Having a road-grading OLine and a power back makes the job easier once you've got the D off balance.

Unless you're Florida or Oregon types and need your pulling lineman and backs a little quicker to get to the edges.
 
#47
#47
Over Elway's last four years of his career (the years with Alex Gibbs), he averaged 11.51 rushing yards per game. He was not a major part of that running game. Sure, maybe he would keep the ball on one or two bootlegs a game, or take off when nothing was open downfield, but I don't think you can consider 11.51 yards per game to be a significant portion of the running game.

Just because Elway had wheels, didn't mean they used em a lot. Big Ben can run, Steve Young could run, Aaron Rogers can run, but none of them have/had significant roles in their teams rushing attacks.

The last four years? He was old.. Of course they didnt want him running as much.. Didn't stop him on a couple of nice bootlegs n his last super bowl.
 
#48
#48
I like zone blocking schemes a lot, mainly because of what the Texans are doing with Arian Foster right now (as well as the Mike Shanahan Broncos teams). That kind of zone running attack is something that a pro-style offense like UT could incorporate, I think people are getting confused by semantics and imagining the OP is just about offenses like Oregon's, Urban Meyer's, and Rich Rodriguez'.

OP's friend was wrong, man blocking is not the most effective way to run. Neither is zone blocking necessarily, it depends on your system and personnel and then of course you just have to execute. I believe Wisconsin is a good example of a man blocking system, just for general reference. Correct me if I'm wrong about that.
 
#49
#49
The last four years? He was old.. Of course they didnt want him running as much.. Didn't stop him on a couple of nice bootlegs n his last super bowl.

Agreed but I am talking about when Alex Gibbs in and they really started running the zone. My point was that I think some people were confusing basic zone schemes and the zone read. They are the same blocking scheme, but you don't have to zone read to run inside and outside zone. Someone had mentioned Tyler Bray as a reason why we couldn't run the zone because he was too slow. My point was that Elway wasn't running zone read, nor are the QBs at Alabama, nor are the Qbs for the Houston Texans, nor are the QBs for the Seattle Seahawks.
 
#50
#50
I like zone blocking schemes a lot, mainly because of what the Texans are doing with Arian Foster right now (as well as the Mike Shanahan Broncos teams). That kind of zone running attack is something that a pro-style offense like UT could incorporate, I think people are getting confused by semantics and imagining the OP is just about offenses like Oregon's, Urban Meyer's, and Rich Rodriguez'.

OP's friend was wrong, man blocking is not the most effective way to run. Neither is zone blocking necessarily, it depends on your system and personnel and then of course you just have to execute. I believe Wisconsin is a good example of a man blocking system, just for general reference. Correct me if I'm wrong about that.

Thanks, I'm glad someone saw the light. I was never proclaiming this was some magical offense that was unstoppable, nor that UT should run in. I'm just saying it isn't inferior, and that plenty of pro style teams run it.
 

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