Trump just solved health care

#203
#203
DinkinFlicka said:
What was the excuse for healthcare costs BEFORE the ACA? Not advocating for UHC, but your premise is really vague.

Healthcare has always been ridiculously expensive here. My EKG is Colombia cost me 10 bucks. Here, it's gonna run at around 75 on virtually the exact same equipment.

While government sponsored healthcare sucks, it is possible for a totally privatized healthcare system to **** over the public.
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Why would a 20 something year old need an EKG? Should I start to gather ingredients for the haggis, moppet ?
 
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#204
#204
W.TN.Orange Blood said:
He's not going to be impeached so your wet dream will not come true.
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He will if any of the following occur:

1) Dems take back the House.

(I would list if the Russian investigation shows collusion, financial fraud or criminal activity by Trump, or the like, but the GOP House would be too afraid of backlash from their base to act on those things even if they come to pass.)
 
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#205
#205
W.TN.Orange Blood said:
He's not going to be impeached so your wet dream will not come true.
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Calm down, the comment was made tongue in cheek with regards to him yanking the legislatures health care insurance.

That said, if tax reform can't get passed - I really can't imagine a scenario where having trump hanging around will help the GOP legislature agenda. I'd say all bets are off after that tax reform issue is settled.
 
#207
#207
LouderVol said:
then why did costs go up?
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1) The cost of care itself is going up. None of the plans address that, including the ACA. Fact is, we want our cake and to eat it, too. We want intensive effort made at prolonging life and improving quality of life, maybe more than anything else in our list of priorities. It costs a lot to do that. There is no mechanism to make that cheaper.

2) There are a LOT of industries and individuals with their hands in the health care till. Not just insurers, but administrators, accountants, lawyers, etc. The number of satellite industries that have grown up around healthcare -- that have nothing to do with actually delivering care -- is simply staggering. Again, because we will pay what it costs.
 
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#208
#208
LouderVol said:
then why did costs go up?
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?

Costs have always gone up, with or without ACA - insurance premiums would continue to rise. How much and why remains arguable. From bad intel on the numbers that would sign up, to the cost of insuring those with preexisting conditions, to the sickest buying heavily subsidized but very comprehensive and expensive care. There are lots of reasons and as trumpo discovered, it's a complex subject.

Before the ACA you were paying for the rising cost of healthcare though your premiums and indirectly through your taxes for the under and un-insured. You realized that, right?
 
#209
#209
Septic said:
?

Costs have always gone up, with or without ACA - insurance premiums would continue to rise. How much and why remains arguable. From bad intel on the numbers that would sign up, to the cost of insuring those with preexisting conditions, to the sickest buying heavily subsidized but very comprehensive and expensive care. There are lots of reasons and as trumpo discovered, it's a complex subject.

Before the ACA you were paying for the rising cost of healthcare though your premiums and indirectly through your taxes for the under and un-insured. You realized that, right?
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yes, but I was paying a lot LESS then. again ACA has cost me 7200 over 3 years. That is for a single person, not a family, and not even a person that actually uses it.

and thats the delta, not the total of what I am paying.

I have 5 years of data that I can look at for myself. 2 without ACA, 3 with.

delta between year 1 & 2? about 4%, inflation and cost going up as has been brought up.

2&3? 114% IIRC, yay ACA. but that was just a one time jump right? nope. 3 & 4, about 151% increase. 4&5 its about a 60% increase. the jumps have been astronomical. haven't changed providers or plans, because really I don't have a choice in the matter.

there is no rationalizing the cost increases I have faced. the government effed me to pay for a bad plan. No way cost of business jumps that much.
 
#210
#210
LouderVol said:
yes, but I was paying a lot LESS then. again ACA has cost me 7200 over 3 years. That is for a single person, not a family, and not even a person that actually uses it.

and thats the delta, not the total of what I am paying.

I have 5 years of data that I can look at for myself. 2 without ACA, 3 with.

delta between year 1 & 2? about 4%, inflation and cost going up as has been brought up.

2&3? 114% IIRC, yay ACA. but that was just a one time jump right? nope. 3 & 4, about 151% increase. 4&5 its about a 60% increase. the jumps have been astronomical. haven't changed providers or plans, because really I don't have a choice in the matter.

there is no rationalizing the cost increases I have faced. the government effed me to pay for a bad plan. No way cost of business jumps that much.
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It's a shell game man, one way or the other you will continue to pay more. If you think that repealing the ACA is going to cause your rates to go down, you're very likely going to be dissapointed. The partisan butchery and blame of the ACA simply shone a light onto a fuqd up system of healthcare that is driven by profit instead of efficiency.
 
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#211
#211
Septic said:
It's a shell game man, one way or the other you will continue to pay more. If you think that repealing the ACA is going to cause your rates to go down, you're very likely going to be dissapointed. The partisan butchery and blame of the ACA simply shone a light onto a fuqd up system of healthcare that is driven by profit instead of efficiency.
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removing government will only help that efficiency. and yeah at this point costs aren't going to go down. We are going to have to live with that ACA spike for the rest of our lives. doesn't mean I want the government in there trying to "fix" things even more.

except for the Patriot Act I can't think of any government action that directly impacted my life as much as ACA. and they were both negative AF.
 
#212
#212
LouderVol said:
removing government will only help that efficiency. and yeah at this point costs aren't going to go down. We are going to have to live with that ACA spike for the rest of our lives. doesn't mean I want the government in there trying to "fix" things even more.

except for the Patriot Act I can't think of any government action that directly impacted my life as much as ACA. and they were both negative AF.
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So do you believe people who can't afford the high cost of health care should be denied?
 
#213
#213
tumscalcium said:
Move to Colombia and live off their wages.
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Are you advocating scaling healthcare costs with national wage averages?

Tsk, tsk, tsk... that's awfully socialist of you.

Also, it's funny you say that because one of my five year plans is opening up a hostel outside Cartagena which will involve me living there for significant portions of the year.
 
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#214
#214
Septic said:
So do you believe people who can't afford the high cost of health care should be denied?
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not necessarily. If the government can figure out a way to have two systems. Can't afford your own care you go to the government run facilities (VA), good luck. If you can afford health care you don't have to buy in to the government one as well.

I believe Medicare and the like are already in place.

so its the flip of your question. Do you believe people who can afford good health care should be denied so that more have less?

you can argue they are still double dipping, but now under ACA they are essentially triple dipping to pay for the same thing.
 
#215
#215
LouderVol said:
not necessarily. If the government can figure out a way to have two systems. Can't afford your own care you go to the government run facilities (VA), good luck. If you can afford health care you don't have to buy in to the government one as well.

I believe Medicare and the like are already in place.

so its the flip of your question. Do you believe people who can afford good health care should be denied so that more have less?

you can argue they are still double dipping, but now under ACA they are essentially triple dipping to pay for the same thing.
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I don't follow, you want to not pay for it via taxes and you want them to have it paid for by the government.

It's one or the other.

Either tax payers pay for the uninsured or tax payers don't pay for the uninsured. If we don't, poor people are denied care.
 
#216
#216
Septic said:
I don't follow, you want to not pay for it via taxes and you want them to have it paid for by the government.

It's one or the other.

Either tax payers pay for the uninsured or tax payers don't pay for the uninsured. If we don't, poor people are denied care.
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under ACA our taxes covering medicare didn't go down. so I am saying that is still paid via taxes and we pay for our individual if you can. So I am paying twice.

right now I am paying the up charge on ACA to cover them, I am paying for my self, and I am paying for Medicare.

where is my moral/ethical obligation to provide for someone at a direct negative impact to myself and mine? life choices have impacts, you make bad ones you suffer, you make good ones you prosper. What we have is those who make good choices end up suffering for the bad, while the bad choices prosper. its a race to bottom. for the rest there is medicare.
 
#217
#217
LouderVol said:
under ACA our taxes covering medicare didn't go down. so I am saying that is still paid via taxes and we pay for our individual if you can. So I am paying twice.

right now I am paying the up charge on ACA to cover them, I am paying for my self, and I am paying for Medicare.

where is my moral/ethical obligation to provide for someone at a direct negative impact to myself and mine? life choices have impacts, you make bad ones you suffer, you make good ones you prosper. What we have is those who make good choices end up suffering for the bad, while the bad choices prosper. its a race to bottom. for the rest there is medicare.
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medicare is a completely separate scheme I never contemplated in my response.

Regarding your moral and ethical obligations? Whatever you have to tell yourself to sleep at night - bad things sometimes happen to good, hard working people. Too bad for them?

As an American, I sure would have a hard time believing a society that lets its poorest suffer make a case for being even remotely 'the best country on earth' or hell - even a civilized society.
 
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#218
#218
Septic said:
medicare is a completely separate scheme I never contemplated in my response.

Regarding your moral and ethical obligations? Whatever you have to tell yourself to sleep at night - bad things sometimes happen to good, hard working people. Too bad for them?

As an American, I sure would have a hard time believing a society that lets its poorest suffer make a case for being even remotely 'the best country on earth' or hell - even a civilized society.
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I don't know about anyone else, but I have a rather limited amount of money. I can't provide for everyone. that doesn't make me, or society lesser for it. We are talking lasting harm, not that I can't go out and buy another Ralph Lauren polo.

the simplest way I can think of it is this. the boat we are on somewhat works for 300 million of our 330 million. yet if we pile on the extra 30 million suddenly that boat works for no one. We are in debt past our eyeballs, anything, and I mean anything, that adds to that is sinking our boat and isn't a good thing. It won't happen all at once, but it is happening.

I won't define our nation by its ability to care for those too stupid (common sense) or lazy to care for themselves. This isn't a free ride. Should we care for those who honestly can't provide for themselves, yes. but that is not what is happening.

Even with insurance we are still in the same boat as those who can't afford it at all. I have insurance but not an infinite amount of money. someone was bringing up 150k medical bills. even if insurance covered 80-90% of that I still couldn't afford it. I would have a better chance of affording it if I got to keep more of my money. but thats not what is happening.
 
#219
#219
its like the college tuition situation. Scholarships are great, helps kids get to college. until colleges react and increase costs. same thing going on with health care. free money/insurance isn't going to decrease actual costs and actually make anything more affordable.
 
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#220
#220
LouderVol said:
I don't know about anyone else, but I have a rather limited amount of money. I can't provide for everyone. that doesn't make me, or society lesser for it. We are talking lasting harm, not that I can't go out and buy another Ralph Lauren polo.

the simplest way I can think of it is this. the boat we are on somewhat works for 300 million of our 330 million. yet if we pile on the extra 30 million suddenly that boat works for no one. We are in debt past our eyeballs, anything, and I mean anything, that adds to that is sinking our boat and isn't a good thing. It won't happen all at once, but it is happening.

I won't define our nation by its ability to care for those too stupid (common sense) or lazy to care for themselves. This isn't a free ride. Should we care for those who honestly can't provide for themselves, yes. but that is not what is happening.

Even with insurance we are still in the same boat as those who can't afford it at all. I have insurance but not an infinite amount of money. someone was bringing up 150k medical bills. even if insurance covered 80-90% of that I still couldn't afford it. I would have a better chance of affording it if I got to keep more of my money. but thats not what is happening.
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Not everyone is asking for a "free ride", that's a straw man argument designed (I imagine) to help you rationalize and justify why you shouldn't or couldn't be held morally accountable. Whatever you have to tell yourself to justify it.

Treating healthcare like a commodity is great when one has the means. I hope you never fall on hard times where you'd have to choose between paying for rent, food or health insurance premiums. Many people do.
 
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#221
#221
Septic said:
Not everyone is asking for a "free ride", that's a straw man argument designed (I imagine) to help you rationalize and justify why you shouldn't or couldn't be held morally accountable. Whatever you have to tell yourself to justify it.

Treating healthcare like a commodity is great when one has the means. I hope you never fall on hard times where you'd have to choose between paying for rent, food or health insurance premiums. Many people do.
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I don't think we should be paying for any of rent, food or healthcare.

Give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach a man to fish he has food for life, give a man a check for nothing and he learns to do nothing.

life sucks get a helmet, gone through some hard times already, choosing rent over food best diet I have ever been on. the government is taking away options, now if I face that same scenario I am having to choose 2 of 3 things to lose. and oh yeah I can now be fined/taxed if I give up one of the three.

I believe getting people to care for themselves, even if it takes some rough patches and loss along the way is better than giving them a crutch. its better for them, and society. what we have now is good for the individual but bad for society.
 
#222
#222
LouderVol said:
removing government will only help that efficiency. and yeah at this point costs aren't going to go down. We are going to have to live with that ACA spike for the rest of our lives. doesn't mean I want the government in there trying to "fix" things even more.

except for the Patriot Act I can't think of any government action that directly impacted my life as much as ACA. and they were both negative AF.
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Both were knee jerk reactions; therefore, neither was well planned or executed.

The Patriot Act in addition to limiting privacy combined several agencies under a single umbrella. That actually means they added another layer of bureaucracy while claiming a fictitious reduction in duplication - for government that's always duplicitous because government has never streamlined anything - doesn't know how.

ACA just threw gas on a raging fire. It didn't address cost containment or reduction; it simply added to demand. Increase demand, and cost will also increase. Subsidize the entry fee for those who "couldn't" participate and you have the makings of the mother of all infernos. Remember part of the "concept" was that by making people healthier, costs would decrease - that's one reason why you include younger people. Unfortunately the people who actually think that believe in fairies and unicorns dancing under a rainbow.
 
#223
#223
Septic said:
So do you believe people who can't afford the high cost of health care should be denied?
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You know, that's actually one of the reasons for education/training aimed toward a career. Of course, that's also somewhat predicated on having the initiative to work and support yourself - including being able to afford medical care.

Perhaps it's the real difference between "I'm here to do something productive with my life" vs "I'm here, you owe me."
 
#224
#224
DinkinFlicka said:
Are you advocating scaling healthcare costs with national wage averages?

Tsk, tsk, tsk... that's awfully socialist of you.

Also, it's funny you say that because one of my five year plans is opening up a hostel outside Cartagena which will involve me living there for significant portions of the year.
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Of course not. Nice red herring.
 
#225
#225
So there was a bipartisan deal earlier today to trade restoring the subsidies for some state flexibility in obtaining waivers.

At first, Trump said that he would support it. Now, apparently, he has been jumped on by some conservatives and is starting to waffle.

Funny thing is, I bet you that tonight at the Heritage Foundation meeting he is going to claim all sorts of credit for doing a great job in reforming Healthcare, LOL!
 
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