Common Core

#1
Chris4Vols22

Chris4Vols22

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#1
I randomly started researching Common Core mathematics after hearing many complaints about it. I had a hypothesis in my head as to why there were so many complaints, and it has held true so far in my research. The fact that my hypothesis seems to be true makes me a little upset, and I believe it exposes a lot of hypocrisy in our educational society.

Let's get one thing out of the way: Common Core is more complex and time-consuming than the traditional pedagogic techniques. No question about it. However, in the LIMITED research I did, I see why the system is condoned. The best way I can describe it is that it is a more thorough and comprehensive presentation of the mathematical concepts and techniques. From what I have come across, it seems like CC heavily integrates place-value in virtually every kind of arithmetic procedure. Does this make it more complicated than it has to be? Yes. Can you not get the same correct answer with less algorithms and essentially less work? Yes. However, I do believe that the extra steps and drastically different techniques will lead to a much better and more comprehensive knowledge of mathematics in general. It's really easy for someone not currently in grade school to condemn the CC system because it's more work and more complex to get to the same correct answer, but if you actually try to understand it, it is very easy (just like anything else in grade school). You just have to consider that you were taught the traditional way your whole life; it WILL be considerably more difficult for you to pick up this system than a child who is starting with a blank slate. I certainly haven't seen the entirety of CC math, but from what I have seen, I think it will benefit those who practice it all the way through school.

When I was an undergrad and master student, I worked in the music theory department tutoring students (as music theory is one of my specialties). In my time there, I discussed several issues in teaching the material, as several different techniques could potentially be used to explain certain concepts to certain students. Even though there were intense debates about what works best, we all agreed that it's on the student to understand what they're doing. The student has to be willing to grind out the work and make a sincere and conscious effort to actually understand the concepts. In the end, it was EXTREMELY easy to see which students understood the concepts, and which students knew the procedures to get an answer, but they didn't understand the concepts. But the bigger issue in my department was that the students that were struggling were the ones who weren't willing to put forth the effort to understand. End of story.

So, as I was reading all the complaints, I hypothesized the CC system actually makes sense, and that people are upset because it makes them do more work and use their brains more. That's what I think the case is, for the most part. It makes me upset because people are always complaining about how our education system sucks, how kids are dumb, how we can't keep up with the rest of the world, etc. How the hell do you think you can get ahead without working harder? Has anything good ever come easy? If you're going to complain about education system, don't whine about school work being more difficult. That's so hypocritical and insane. Furthermore, if you're going to critique the CC system, provide some tangible evidence as to why you don't like it, and more importantly, try to understand how CC works before you write it off. If you don't even know how it works, how can you say it's wrong? The most damning evidence that supported (not confirmed) my hypothesis was an anti-CC blog that posted photos of a student's graded worksheets. Many answers were marked as incorrect, and the student was penalized for not showing the work. The blogger made it out to be that CC doesn't make any sense, and that the questions were impossible to answer with the information given. In every example he posted (minus one that was a legit typo), the correct answer was available, and the instructions were very clear. It was blatantly obvious the blogger did not understand the concepts, and effectively exposed his ignorance and lost credibility.

So, from what I have researched, I see many potential benefits of CC at the expense of harder work. Like I said, I have not researched the entirety of it, and even though I like the ideas of CC, I have come across some concepts and procedures that seem overly tedious. So, I'm not saying it's a perfect system by any means, however, I do fully believe kids will be better off in the long run with pedagogy that evokes more abstract and critical thought.

So I know I'm super late to the party, but now that CC has been in place for a couple years, what are everyone's thoughts on it now?

TL;DNR:
- Common core makes sense and provides a better understanding of the concepts IMO
- Kids will need to work harder to succeed, but the reward is worth it
- It's hypocritical that so many people say our education system sucks, but then complain when efforts are made to improve it via new pedagogy that calls for harder work
- If you don't even know how CC works, don't slam it
- What do you think of CC now that it has been in place for a couple years?
 
#2
#2
Chris4Vols22 said:
I randomly started researching Common Core mathematics after hearing many complaints about it. I had a hypothesis in my head as to why there were so many complaints, and it has held true so far in my research. The fact that my hypothesis seems to be true makes me a little upset, and I believe it exposes a lot of hypocrisy in our educational society.

Let's get one thing out of the way: Common Core is more complex and time-consuming than the traditional pedagogic techniques. No question about it. However, in the LIMITED research I did, I see why the system is condoned. The best way I can describe it is that it is a more thorough and comprehensive presentation of the mathematical concepts and techniques. From what I have come across, it seems like CC heavily integrates place-value in virtually every kind of arithmetic procedure. Does this make it more complicated than it has to be? Yes. Can you not get the same correct answer with less algorithms and essentially less work? Yes. However, I do believe that the extra steps and drastically different techniques will lead to a much better and more comprehensive knowledge of mathematics in general. It's really easy for someone not currently in grade school to condemn the CC system because it's more work and more complex to get to the same correct answer, but if you actually try to understand it, it is very easy (just like anything else in grade school). You just have to consider that you were taught the traditional way your whole life; it WILL be considerably more difficult for you to pick up this system than a child who is starting with a blank slate. I certainly haven't seen the entirety of CC math, but from what I have seen, I think it will benefit those who practice it all the way through school.

When I was an undergrad and master student, I worked in the music theory department tutoring students (as music theory is one of my specialties). In my time there, I discussed several issues in teaching the material, as several different techniques could potentially be used to explain certain concepts to certain students. Even though there were intense debates about what works best, we all agreed that it's on the student to understand what they're doing. The student has to be willing to grind out the work and make a sincere and conscious effort to actually understand the concepts. In the end, it was EXTREMELY easy to see which students understood the concepts, and which students knew the procedures to get an answer, but they didn't understand the concepts. But the bigger issue in my department was that the students that were struggling were the ones who weren't willing to put forth the effort to understand. End of story.

So, as I was reading all the complaints, I hypothesized the CC system actually makes sense, and that people are upset because it makes them do more work and use their brains more. That's what I think the case is, for the most part. It makes me upset because people are always complaining about how our education system sucks, how kids are dumb, how we can't keep up with the rest of the world, etc. How the hell do you think you can get ahead without working harder? Has anything good ever come easy? If you're going to complain about education system, don't whine about school work being more difficult. That's so hypocritical and insane. Furthermore, if you're going to critique the CC system, provide some tangible evidence as to why you don't like it, and more importantly, try to understand how CC works before you write it off. If you don't even know how it works, how can you say it's wrong? The most damning evidence that supported (not confirmed) my hypothesis was an anti-CC blog that posted photos of a student's graded worksheets. Many answers were marked as incorrect, and the student was penalized for not showing the work. The blogger made it out to be that CC doesn't make any sense, and that the questions were impossible to answer with the information given. In every example he posted (minus one that was a legit typo), the correct answer was available, and the instructions were very clear. It was blatantly obvious the blogger did not understand the concepts, and effectively exposed his ignorance and lost credibility.

So, from what I have researched, I see many potential benefits of CC at the expense of harder work. Like I said, I have not researched the entirety of it, and even though I like the ideas of CC, I have come across some concepts and procedures that seem overly tedious. So, I'm not saying it's a perfect system by any means, however, I do fully believe kids will be better off in the long run with pedagogy that evokes more abstract and critical thought.

So I know I'm super late to the party, but now that CC has been in place for a couple years, what are everyone's thoughts on it now?

TL;DNR:
- Common core makes sense and provides a better understanding of the concepts IMO
- Kids will need to work harder to succeed, but the reward is worth it
- It's hypocritical that so many people say our education system sucks, but then complain when efforts are made to improve it via new pedagogy that calls for harder work
- If you don't even know how CC works, don't slam it
- What do you think of CC now that it has been in place for a couple years?
Click to expand...

Yes it's meant for comedy, but some fantastic points made here.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6lyURyVz7k[/youtube]
 
#4
#4
Forcing common core methodology is the issue and it improves nothing. Some of their methods are beyond idiotic. It's not simply about finding new ways to work a problem which should be what a good teacher does anyways.
 
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#5
#5
The math aspect of it isn't even the bad part though. One of the biggest flaws (dangers) with Common Core is what will be taught with American History and our Constitution. It is being changed on purpose so that we will have a generation that doesn't understand the importance of why the country was founded and the essence of the Amendments to the Constitution.
 
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#6
#6
TNsnyper20 said:
Common Core Base 10 Way To Add 9 + 6 Takes 54 Seconds | The Daily Caller

In my opinion, this is no different than a child using their fingers to understand why 9+6 is 15. This just makes it more complicated.

I cannot get behind common core.
Click to expand...

I completely understand your stance on it, and I agree with you to an extent. I think the idea is that the CC method serves as a connective tissue between counting concrete objects (15 fingers) and writing 9 + 6 = 15 on paper.

Also keep in mind that this particular problem is extremely simple, so the CC will definitely seem unnecessarily long and tedious relative to the simplicity of the problem. They have to grind it out on this whimpy addition problem in order to learn the ideas they'll use later on with more complicated problems. When the student gets older and into more advanced math classes, the method isn't as long relative to the difficulty of the problem.

It's really like learning a new language. Easy to do as kids, difficult as adults. It's hard for us as adults to understand it since it's so different than what we've been taught our whole lives. If you really look at a few different ways to apply it, you can see how it incorporates a true understanding of the arithmetic instead of regurgitating memorized formulas that, by themselves, would be equally as indecipherable. IMO.
 
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#7
#7
utvolpj said:
Forcing common core methodology is the issue and it improves nothing. Some of their methods are beyond idiotic. It's not simply about finding new ways to work a problem which should be what a good teacher does anyways.
Click to expand...

Have you really examined the methodology? Just give up when it was too hard?
 
#12
#12
davethevol said:
The math aspect of it isn't even the bad part though. One of the biggest flaws (dangers) with Common Core is what will be taught with American History and our Constitution. It is being changed on purpose so that we will have a generation that doesn't understand the importance of why the country was founded and the essence of the Amendments to the Constitution.
Click to expand...

Have you been to the Politics forum lately? Were most of the middle aged posters there exposed to Common Core? Because you have a lot of people that dont have an understanding of what freedom is.
 
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#13
#13
We were once ahead of everybody else, and we did not fall behind because of CC. If one kid can count on his fingers why 2+2=4 in 5 seconds, and another can do it in 15 steps and 5 minutes. It does not mean the later will be more successful in life. I made A's all through school in math. I have to sit and watch my kids get frustrated because they'll know the answer in their head, but if they don't do it in all the CC steps its wrong. Its not about doing more work, heck if that's the case why do schools even have computers? Make them go back to encyclopedias and the Dewey decimal system like I had. That's work, and using your brain. CC from a math standpoint is dumb, and has no outcome later in life for kids. It just stresses a lot of them (and parents), and makes them not have a desire to do it. JMO
 
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#14
#14
I hate Math and I have always hated Math. I don't have much experience with CC but I have seen some of my niece's math homework. She is in the second grade. Its crazy some of the steps they have to go through to find the correct answer.

They were debating about taking CC out of the school system here in Chattanooga. I'm not sure if they did end up taking it out or not.
 
#15
#15
It's ok to teach multiple strategies. It's stupidto pretend like the answer is incorrect if it's correct just because a student prefers to use a different method
 
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#16
#16
I really haven't looked much into CC but it is something I should start researching as my 4 year old will be starting school in 2016.

My sister (a 9th grade English teacher) has two elementary age kids and what astounds me is how much homework they have every single night. There is barely any time in the day left for extracurricular activities such as sports, karate, gymnastics, music lessons, etc.

I'm not opposed to a little homework but after 6-7 hrs in the classroom there is no reason a kid should have to spend another 2 to 3 hours doing homework every night. it's really got my wife and I considering homeschooling our kids.
 
#17
#17
I'd suggest it doesn't matter if I "think" CC is better or worse. It doesn't matter if I have a hypothesis it is better or worse.

What does the pedogogical research say? Are the learning outcomes better and for who?

My opinion is meaningless unless I know what the research says.

That said, I believe a lot of the resistance is the "one size fits all" approach for a nation of 320 million people.
 
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#19
#19
Good input guys, I appreciate it.

Has anyone here had enough experience with it to have a firm grasp of it? The only people I've seen that know it well are teachers that are proponents, so I'd like to hear the other side from someone who knows it and opposes it.
 
#20
#20
Chris4Vols22 said:
I completely understand your stance on it, and I agree with you to an extent. I think the idea is that the CC method serves as a connective tissue between counting concrete objects (15 fingers) and writing 9 + 6 = 15 on paper.

Also keep in mind that this particular problem is extremely simple, so the CC will definitely seem unnecessarily long and tedious relative to the simplicity of the problem. They have to grind it out on this whimpy addition problem in order to learn the ideas they'll use later on with more complicated problems. When the student gets older and into more advanced math classes, the method isn't as long relative to the difficulty of the problem.

It's really like learning a new language. Easy to do as kids, difficult as adults. It's hard for us as adults to understand it since it's so different than what we've been taught our whole lives. If you really look at a few different ways to apply it, you can see how it incorporates a true understanding of the arithmetic instead of regurgitating memorized formulas that, by themselves, would be equally as indecipherable. IMO.
Click to expand...


You're right, the example I have is extremely simple. That's why we teach this scenario of counting with our fingers to younger children. But why continue that same style as they get older? You've already taught the reason why the numbers get the result they do. Note move on and show how to simplify the formulas to get the results you need.

If I'm hiring you for a position. I could care less if you can tell me how you can get to the result. I just want to see you get to the result. CC is going to set them up for failure by over complicating things.
 
#22
#22
If they are teaching you a method then you need to follow the method. thats what they are testing on not if you can solve what 2+2 is. anybody with a full hand can figure that out, and as was pointed out this is a simple step. you get used to the complicated methods with easy stuff so when you get to more difficult issues the method isn't a stumbling block at that point. once you know the method it doesn't matter what the numbers are because you can figure it out through the method. granted I don't know exactly how CC works but i don't see an issue teaching a method and not rote memorization like I learned. its a completely different level but in my college structure classes I did terrible when trying to figure out the answer and not paying attention to the professors methods (where numbers came from). then the next year i paid attention to the methods, where the numbers came from, why we did this that and the other and half the time didn't even write down the final answer because it was irrelevant to the process. I did a lot better in the class after that. should 1st graders have to learn such complications, where do you draw the line??? there is a difference in having the right answer and knowing the right answer, not that the old method was teaching incorrectly but neither is CC imo.

history and other stuff are different issues.
 
#23
#23
burntorangeVOLffle said:
I really haven't looked much into CC but it is something I should start researching as my 4 year old will be starting school in 2016.

My sister (a 9th grade English teacher) has two elementary age kids and what astounds me is how much homework they have every single night. There is barely any time in the day left for extracurricular activities such as sports, karate, gymnastics, music lessons, etc.

I'm not opposed to a little homework but after 6-7 hrs in the classroom there is no reason a kid should have to spend another 2 to 3 hours doing homework every night. it's really got my wife and I considering homeschooling our kids.
Click to expand...

I've always thought homework was redundant. If you can't teach it in the time frame given, then you don't need to be teaching it.

Assignments, essays, research papers.. OK I understand. But there are several teachers who assign homework just to assign homework.
 
#24
#24
TNsnyper20 said:
I've always thought homework was redundant. If you can't teach it in the time frame given, then you don't need to be teaching it.

Assignments, essays, research papers.. OK I understand. But there are several teachers who assign homework just to assign homework.
Click to expand...

Both of my SILs are elementary teachers, they say there is so much homework now is due to all the other BS they have to cover in the classroom.
 
#25
#25
TNsnyper20 said:
You're right, the example I have is extremely simple. That's why we teach this scenario of counting with our fingers to younger children. But why continue that same style as they get older? You've already taught the reason why the numbers get the result they do. Note move on and show how to simplify the formulas to get the results you need.

If I'm hiring you for a position. I could care less if you can tell me how you can get to the result. I just want to see you get to the result. CC is going to set them up for failure by over complicating things.
Click to expand...

Again, if you judge the entirety of CC off of your frustration with that particular problem, you're not really giving it a fair chance. Think of how many kids struggle with long division or algebra. That's where it really makes more sense because everything is so much more organized and coherent. If you do a problem like 27 x 32, you probably know you have to add two numbers together to get the final product after the first couple steps. If you really look at all the steps up until that point, they are pretty random and you can't really explain why you do them, you just know it's the rule. When you see the problem worked out the tradional way and CC way side-by-side, it's glaringly obvious to see how that would make more sense to a student who is learning this level of multiplication for the first time.

I highly doubt there are as many people who share the sentiment of not caring about means to an end as you think.

If the kids are taught this stuff from the beginning, they'll be much better at intermediate and advanced math classes than we ever were IMO. Of course, the simple stuff is overcomplicated, and no one is ever going to go through all those steps in a real-world situation, but you have to grind it out to understand the more complicated stuff down the road.
 
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