Who really wants government controlled health care??

[gsvol]

Common sense.

"I was not intimidated during J. Edgar Hoover’s FBI hunt for reporters like me who criticized him. I railed against the Bush-Cheney war on the Bill of Rights without blinking. But now I am finally scared of a White House administration."
Nat Hentoff

"No, being a eugenicist can’t be all gravy. Just ask Ezekiel Emanuel: not only must one take on the responsibility of deciding who lives and who dies; one must also keep straight the endless lies, rationalizations, and equivocations."
Ray Harvey

Chief Heathcare Advisor to Obama and brother of Rahm Emanuel.

Democrats are generally slow on the uptake as they have been taught in their leftist schools to not use their minds and eyes and ears but rather to trust their loving government.

One has but to study history to see the error of such blind trust in mankind as governments throughout history have murdered more innocent people than any given human institution.
anon

[gsvol]

The American people are awakening as a result of the health care plan and are angry...and tired of being the patsy for all of the marxistic, socailistic, fascistic, destructive, initiative-robbing, liberty-destroying, un-American, and unconstituional actions of the DNC, Dems, left, MSM, and RINOs.

[orangeblooded2]

I'm still not buying what the corporate and Republican shills are selling. I also hope that Pelosi and Reid don't ram a non consensus program down our throats. Get something started and tweak it as we go. Which is what Obama has stated he would do from the start with any of his initiatives.

[KB5252]

Originally Posted by orangeblooded2

I'm still not buying what the corporate and Republican shills are selling. I also hope that Pelosi and Reid don't ram a non consensus program down our throats. Get something started and tweak it as we go. Which is what Obama has stated he would do from the start with any of his initiatives.

This is exactly why we have been stuck with such crappy programs from our government over the years.

That is the last thing we need to do. We need to have a clear plan set with clear definitions as to the scope of government involvement and it's restrictions.

We need reform but it the sky isn't going to fall tomorrow if we don't get it passed. Our elected representatives need to hammer everything out before anything is signed.

[allvol123]

Originally Posted by orangeblooded2

I'm still not buying what the corporate and Republican shills are selling. I also hope that Pelosi and Reid don't ram a non consensus program down our throats. Get something started and tweak it as we go. Which is what Obama has stated he would do from the start with any of his initiatives.

What are they selling? Would you be more willing to buy it if the government mandated someone else pay for it?

Yea, "get something started and tweak it as we go." Marvelous plan. Don't let perfect stand in the way of good.

[orangeblooded2]

From my perspective tweaking it as we go is the lesser of two evils. History is wrought with programs that have be discussed thoroughly and the kinks Ironed out before hand and written in a language that does not allow for change and/or makes it very difficult to achieve. Why not take the opposite approach and have very clear language in place to allow for adaptability. With the understanding that it's core initiative of health care for all Americans can't be touched. Unless it's about not treating non-American Citizens.

[KB5252]

Originally Posted by orangeblooded2

From my perspective tweaking it as we go is the lesser of two evils. History is wrought with programs that have be discussed thoroughly and the kinks Ironed out before hand and written in a language that does not allow for change and/or makes it very difficult to achieve. Why not take the opposite approach and have very clear language in place to allow for adaptability. With the understanding that it's core initiative of health care for all Americans can't be touched. Unless it's about not treating non-American Citizens.

Language like this keeps the "single payer" health care opposition alive and is the single biggest reason for public opposition. We have seen the results and the majority of Americans don't want it.

We can all agree we need reform we just disagree on whether or not government should provide it (health care). That is an obstacle that can't be addressed as you go along it has to be hammered out before hand.

[vols4sure]

Originally Posted by orangeblooded2

From my perspective tweaking it as we go is the lesser of two evils. History is wrought with programs that have be discussed thoroughly and the kinks Ironed out before hand and written in a language that does not allow for change and/or makes it very difficult to achieve. Why not take the opposite approach and have very clear language in place to allow for adaptability. With the understanding that it's core initiative of health care for all Americans can't be touched. Unless it's about not treating non-American Citizens.

Are you saying that your are opposed to covering illegals and non-US citizens in a public health care bill?

[orangeblooded2]

Originally Posted by vols4sure

Are you saying that your are opposed to covering illegals and non-US citizens in a public health care bill?

Yes, In general. However there are certain exceptions. I don't think as policy we should let anyone die. Also allow for the unforeseen such as a pandemic.

[allvol123]

Originally Posted by orangeblooded2

Yes, In general. However there are certain exceptions. I don't think as policy we should let anyone die. Also allow for the unforeseen such as a pandemic.

So you are all for making sure we cover all of a certain type of people but want to make sure we do not cover another certain type of people? Correct?

[vols4sure]

Originally Posted by orangeblooded2

Yes, In general. However there are certain exceptions. I don't think as policy we should let anyone die. Also allow for the unforeseen such as a pandemic.

I agree, and the part in bold is provided for in the way our health care works now.

However, the way I understand it, the proposed health care bill does not explicitly prevent non-US citizens from receiving govt. subsidized health care under the plan (see the Heller amendment that was rejected by democrats). Democrats say that they will not be provided for, but they won't explicitly put that in the bill in clear language. Thus your "tweak as we go" could allow for this.

I wish everyone could have healthcare, but it is just not reasonable and will bankrupt this country if attempted (especially if we try to provide for people who aren't even US citizens)

[orangeblooded2]

Originally Posted by allvol123

So you are all for making sure we cover all of a certain type of people but want to make sure we do not cover another certain type of people? Correct?

Within the confines of being legal as opposed to illegal, Yes I am.

[allvol123]

Originally Posted by orangeblooded2

Within the confines of being legal as opposed to illegal, Yes I am.

Hmmm. I would think your desire for making sure everyone has healthcare revolves around some desire to make sure people are able to get treatment for being sick. Yet, this desire stops at some legal/illegal line. I don't see why it is my(or anyone else's) responsibility to help the guy down the street get healthcare anymore than it is to help the guy in the next country. You however want some government fix to help people you don't know but this help is supposed to be limited to only people you don't know that are American citizens? Care to explain the rationale? This stuff does not stop. It will only move further to where we are being made responsible to pay for healthcare of people all over the world.

[orangeblooded2]

Originally Posted by allvol123

Hmmm. I would think your desire for making sure everyone has healthcare revolves around some desire to make sure people are able to get treatment for being sick. Yet, this desire stops at some legal/illegal line. I don't see why it is my(or anyone else's) responsibility to help the guy down the street get healthcare anymore than it is to help the guy in the next country. You however want some government fix to help people you don't know but this help is supposed to be limited to only people you don't know that are American citizens? Care to explain the rationale? This stuff does not stop. It will only move further to where we are being made responsible to pay for healthcare of people all over the world.

Legal vs. illegal. What's to explain.

I gave you your chance, just to see from whench you would come. No surprise as to you attack or response.

[gsvol]

Originally Posted by orangeblooded2

I'm still not buying what the corporate and Republican shills are selling. I also hope that Pelosi and Reid don't ram a non consensus program down our throats. Get something started and tweak it as we go. Which is what Obama has stated he would do from the start with any of his initiatives.

But you buy what democrat corporate shills are selling???

I've been 'tweaked' my whole life by dimcrap social programs and I for one, am damned sick and tired of it.

I hope some sort of impasse is reached and nada is passed.

You evidently didn't read the Alinski 'rules for radicals' where he says demand 110% and settle for 30%, you can gradually get the other 70% a little at a time.

It's classical menchevik vs bolshevik ideology, still it ends in classical socialism which is what so many of our forefathers have fought and died to prevent.

You convince me that creating or greatly enlarging 35 federal agencies is going to save money and I'll kiss your sweet ass on the fifty yard line in Neyland Stadium at half time before a sell out crowd.

The very worst thing about allowing bureaucratic control of health care is that some commissar in some office can interpret the rules to his own liking on a case by case basis.