2 +2 + ?

[gsvol]

Thailand

Insurgents have killed and beheaded at least 45 people, mostly civililans, since 2004.

Percent of all non-muslim grievance groups who engage in beheading: 0% - other: 100%

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam. That's not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace. These terrorists don't represent peace. They represent evil and war.

George W. Bush, September 17th, 2001

 

[kptvol]

A much better thing for him to do would have been to blame Islam for all our problems and advise everyone to murder any dark-skinned person they encounter.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

A much better thing for him to do would have been to blame Islam for all our problems and advise everyone to murder any dark-skinned person they encounter.

Sarcasm? :unsure:

 

[gsvol]

Sarcasm? :unsure:

I'm guessing it's more just plain 'liberal piety.'

 

[therealUT]

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/024940.phpPercent of all non-muslim grievance groups who engage in beheading: 0% - other: 100%

http://www.rightsidenews.com/200807...som-forcing-mexican-s-to-flee-to-the-u.s.html

Mexican Drug Cartels Using Terrorist Beheading Tactics

BLNZ: Mexican army vows crackdown after soldiers beheaded

USBorderWatch.com - MORE BEHEADED BODIES IN MEXICO - U.S. Border Watch - News

Once again, you are wrong, GSVol.

 

[gsvol]

George W. Bush, September 17th, 2001

He loved Big Brother.

 

[gsvol]

Once again, you are wrong, GSVol.

Nope, you are the one who is wrong, as per usual.

The drug cartels aren't 'grievance groups' they are criminal conspiracies who have adopted beheadings from the islamo/fascist for it's shock value.

It was first noted in Nicaragua when the Kerry/Harkin/democrat party supported Ortega brought in outside help in his power grab that was resisted by the Reagan administration.

Argentina has issued around 70,000 (or more) false passports to mideasterners, giving them latin sounding names.

Chavez is tight with the jihadists as well.

I was wrong forty years ago when I read Quigley's forecast that there would be a coming coalition between the arabic and spanish speaking worlds, I didn't think that could happen so quickly.

 

[therealUT]

Feel free to play your game of semantics all day long. Your outlook on Islam is perverse.

 

[gsvol]

Feel free to play your game of semantics all day long. Your outlook on Islam is perverse.

So then you are saying 2 + 2 = 5??

I got your perverse.

Islam is perverse not my view of it, your dhimmi view is the only perverse part of the equation.

(AP) Febuary, 17, 2009: The crime drips with brutal irony: a woman decapitated, allegedly by her estranged husband, in the offices of the television network the couple founded with the hope of countering Muslim stereotypes.



Norwegian Authorities Are Covering Up Muslim Rapes

4/11/2007; There has been a spike in the number of rape charges in Scandinavia in recent years. It has reached near epidemic proportions in Sweden. Although there are indications of a very high percentage of Muslim immigrants on the statistics, as it is with other kinds of crime, immigration is a non-issue for the political establishment a few weeks ahead of the Swedish national elections.

In neighboring Norway, there is an unprecedented rape wave in the capital city of Oslo. “We have to be realistic. A series of rapes have made Oslo unsafe during the summer,” says Brit Opjordsmoen from DIXI, support centre for rape victims. “When we know that there are rapists on the loose in Oslo, we have to listen to advice from the police. They are right in warning women against going home alone at night.”

The ultimate in liberal thinking:

Unni Wikan, a professor of social anthropology at the University of Oslo, in 2001 said that “Norwegian women must take their share of responsibility for these rapes” because Muslim men found their manner of dress provocative. The professor’s conclusion was not that Muslim men living in the West needed to adjust to Western norms, but the exact opposite: “Norwegian women must realize that we live in a Multicultural society and adapt themselves to it.”


An Islamic mufti in Copenhagen has sparked a political outcry after publicly declaring that women who refuse to wear headscarves are "asking for rape."

"The German journalist Udo Ulfkotte told in a recent interview that in Holland, you can now see examples of young, unveiled Moroccan women with a so-called "smiley". It means that the girl gets one side of her face cut up from mouth to ear, serving as a warning to other Muslim girls who should refuse to wear the veil. In the Muslim suburb of Courneuve, France, 77 per cent of the veiled women carry veils reportedly because of fear of being harassed or molested by Islamic moral patrols."

The phenomenon of gang rape in France has become banal. It occurs - how often is unknown - in the concrete wastelands built as cheap housing for immigrants on the outskirts of France's big cities.

The neighborhood butcher, from Algeria, spoke as if the suburb was a world apart. "If a girl goes out, she's going to get into trouble, especially with Arabs and blacks, because they are not used to seeing girls outside," he said. "The boys have needs. Where I come from, it's not normal that a girl goes out at night. If I tell my sister not to go out, she obeys me. This world is not like France."
--------------------------------

The man who stopped the evangelists, calling their preaching a “hate crime,” was Naeem Naguthney, a police community support officer (PCSO), and a Muslim. Granted, a PCSO is not a full police officer, and has only limited powers of law enforcement. But which law was he enforcing? It looks suspiciously like Sharia.

The choice of words — “Muslim area” — is significant. Non-Muslims are not merely told that their behavior might upset or anger Muslims, but that they themselves are on Muslim soil, where such behavior is forbidden.

Do the young Muslimahs in the picture below look pious? Or are they belligerently defending their turf?

Each niqab allowed in the workplace, each new mosque, each “hate-speech law” is, as London’s new Mayor Boris Johnson put it, “another yard of territory in the kulturkampf of modern Britain.”

Alum Rock has, in accordance with the tenets of jihad, been claimed for the Dar al-Islam. And once Islam has claimed an area, that area cannot be taken back without a fight.

----------------------------------

London's No-Go Zones

Now, however, Londoners are faced by the threat of the jihadi generation. Whether they are carrying out high profile terrorism or low-level intimidation, these young Islamists are determined to create "facts on the ground" by establishing areas where only Muslims of their own stripe can live.

That is what the Anglican Bishop Nazir-Ali of Rochester meant when he spoke of "no-go areas" in many British cities where non-Muslims no longer felt safe — remarks for which he was threatened with death and cold-shouldered by his fellow bishops. Not one spoke up in his defense — least of all the archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, the foremost advocate of Shariah law.

This week, however, disturbing evidence to support Bishop Nazir-Ali came to light. It has emerged that on March 5 the Anglican parish priest of St. George's, Canon Michael Ainsworth, was horribly assaulted in his own churchyard by two Muslims.

Asked politely by the 57-year-old priest to turn down their music, the two young men unleashed an unprovoked assault, while taunting him about his religion. They left Mr. Ainsworth badly injured in his churchyard, where he was later found and taken to hospital, where he remained for 12 days.

Nor was this an isolated incident. A former police officer, Nick Tolson, who is the founder of National Churchwatch, an organization recently established to protect priests against assault, said that faith hate attacks on clergy are rising. "The harassment is usually coming from young Asian men — often, but not exclusively, Muslim," he told the Times.

Even more disturbing is that the authorities are not treating these attacks as motivated by jihadi ideology. "The police and prosecutors will classify an attack on a mosque or Muslim as a hate crime but not if it is a church or a vicar."

In older inner cities, where there are high concentrations of churches in what are now largely Muslim neighborhoods, Christian clergy are often isolated and vulnerable. Jews have long since abandoned areas with large Muslim populations, such as the East End, but significant numbers of Christians remain. So the priests must stay to minister to their parishes — and risk becoming martyrs.

Last year, bricks were thrown through the windows of St. George's during the service on Good Friday, one of the most solemn days of the Christian calendar. Church windows are smashed "two or three times a month," Mr. Ramanoop said.

Jihadi literature is widely available at local Islamic bookshops, including one next to the East London Mosque, the largest in the capital. Its chairman, Mohammed Abdul Bari, also is the leader of the Muslim Council of Britain, which claims to be the country's largest Islamic umbrella organization.

When Mr. Bari was mentioned in a report by the think tank, Policy Exchange, for allowing incendiary propaganda to be disseminated, Mr. Bari's response was to sue the Times for reporting the allegation.

Mr. Bari received an abject apology from the newspaper, because he was not, he claimed, responsible for what was sold in the bookshop.

------------------------------

“Muslim Gangs Have Turned Britain’s Oldest Park into No Go Zone for non-muslims".

August 28, 2008, There have been at least seven violent incidents in the park, which has the distinction of being Britain’s first public park, dating back to 1840. The majority of victims have been from the local white community, although one black and one Sikh have also been attacked.

Bizarrely, the park, whose adjoining councillors are all Pakistani in origin, was recently given a national Green Flag safety award. Crime victims are furious at the award, which flies in the face of the reality of the situation,


The Arboretum was Britain’s first public park and was the model for New York’s Central Park.
---------------------------------------

You my friend are the one playing semantics in this discussion.

 

[therealUT]

Islam is perverse not my view of it

Compared to what? To make such a statement you must compare Islam to like institutions.

Is Islam in dogma, doctrine, and history perverse compared to Christianity? No. Judaism? No.

Does Islam, in 2009, resemble theo-political organizations of the Middle Ages? Yes.

You may continue to post pictures and an absurd number of words pointing out certain facts. However, the conclusions that those facts draw are not as you say.

You would have a much easier time making the argument that all religious organizations are perverse, as compared to most civil institutions, than you are going to have in making the argument that Islam is perverse in comparison to Christianity and Judaism.

You should learn how to think for yourself and draw logical conclusions from facts. I think that would help everybody.

 

[JTrainDavis]

[
You may continue to post pictures and an absurd number of words pointing out certain facts. [

Really. gs,you may have your points, but the narratives don't help you. Brief, clear, and concise works.

On the beheading point, i don't see how realUTs examples aren't on par with your own...

 

[gsvol]

Really. gs,you may have your points, but the narratives don't help you. Brief, clear, and concise works.

On the beheading point, i don't see how realUTs examples aren't on par with your own...

I could produce pages of photos of jihadists in the former Yugolavia posing with the heads of slain Serbs, would that help??.

Reportedly the President of Bosnia sent 23 Serbian heads to Tehran to proclaim the muslim victory.

You have to lend some credence to Carla Del Ponte, who was the chief war crimes prosecutor in the former Yugoslavia!

(I'm not to high on the Guradian as a source, I have about another half dozen links, some going into much greater detail about these horrible crimes by the muslim forces.)

Del Ponte, now a Swiss ambassador, has been ordered to keep silent by the Swiss government.

@\/ax2u5/22yu5hzq;,ra..f,`EO"u .
(oops my key scrambler has been penetrated)

What do we know about the KLA? We know that Joe Biden was one of their first friends on Washington, we know that after Clinton/Albright/Holbrooke removed them from the terrorist list that Joe Lieberman called them 'our fellow freedom fighters' (fighting for what freedoms?), we know that the KLA said of McCain; "he has done everything we asked of him." We know that Bush visited Albania to receive accolades of 'our' victory.

Briefly;

Life in the lands of Islam:

Saudi Arabia - Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death. Bibles are illegal. Churches are illegal. Easter celebrations are illegal. It is punishable by death for a non-mulsim to enter the “holy” muslim cities of Medina and Mecca.

Yemen - Bans proselytizing by non-Muslims and forbids conversions. The Government does not allow the building of new non-Muslim places of worship.

Kuwait - Registration and licensing of religious groups. Members of religions not sanctioned in the Koran may not build places of worship. Prohibits organized religious education for religions other than Islam.

Egypt - Islam is the official state religion and primary source of legislation. Accordingly, religious practices that conflict with Islamic law are prohibited. Muslims may face legal problems if they convert to another faith (up to and including death). Requires non-Muslims to obtain what is now a presidential decree to build a place of worship.

Northern Cyprus - About 133 churches, chapels and monasteries have been converted to military storage facilities, stables and night-clubs. Seventy-eight churches have been converted to mosques, and dozens more are used as military facilities, medical storage facilities, or stockyards or hay barns, according to statistics from The Republic of Cyprus. Agia Anastasia Church in Lapithos was converted into a hotel and casino, while the Sourp Magar Armenian monastery – founded in the medieval period – was converted into a cafeteria.

Algeria - The law prohibits public assembly for purposes of practicing a faith other than Islam. Non-Islamic proselytizing is illegal, and the Government restricts the importation of non-Islamic literature for distribution. The country has passed the “Regulation of Religious Practice” law, which stipulates a punishment of two to five years’ imprisonment and heavy fines for anyone convicted of urging a Muslim to change his religion.

Syria - The constitution requires the president to be a Muslim and specifies that Islamic jurisprudence is a principal source of legislation. Sharing your Christian faith is discouraged as “posing a threat to the relations among religious groups” and carries a penalty of up to life in prison. A Christian is not allowed to proselytize – ever. Churches who want to hold an extra service must get a government permit. Sermons are routinely monitored, as is church fundraising.

Jordan - Has the death penalty for any Muslim selling land to a Jew.

Sudan - Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death.

Pakistan - Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death. Bans proselytizing by non-Muslims. Christians regularly put in prison for charges of blasphemy. Islam is the state religion, and in a court of law the testimony of a Christian carries less weight than that of a Muslim. Section 295(c) of the Penal Code calls for a death sentence for anyone who defiles the name of the Prophet Muhammad and requires the testimony of four Muslims for a conviction. This fosters an environment in which Muslims can feel free to use intimidation and violence against religious minorities for personal gain. Also, if any criminal Muslim rape with any Christian female and then take plea that she has accepted Islam and marry with him. Such person is not culpable under Pakistani criminal law

Qatar - Islamic instruction is compulsory in public schools. The government regulates the publication, importation, and distribution of non-Islamic religious literature. The government continues to prohibit proselytizing of Muslims by non-Muslims.

Malaysia - Under Malaysian law, any convert to Christianity must apply to a shariah (Muslim law) court to legally renounce Islam. Many Christians prefer to remain silent converts rather than take their battle to the shariah courts, where apostasy or conversion out of Islam is punishable by whipping, fines, imprisonment and—in the most extreme application—death. In a country where Muslims account for more than half of the population, conversion from Islam is punished with a 5-year prison sentence and a $3,000 fine. A Malaysian Muslim who marries a non-Muslim and who converts the non-Muslim to Islam is rewarded with an apartment, a car, a one-time payment of $2,700, and a monthly stipend of $270.

The Maldives - In the island paradise visited by tens of thousands of tourists each year, Christianity is simply not tolerated. While local Christians – said to number around 300 out of a total population of 300,000 – do get together to worship, they do so at the risk of imprisonment or worse if discovered by the Muslim authorities. Bibles are banned, and tourists can be arrested for trying to bring them into the country.

Indonesia - There is much persectution of Christians by the muslim majority.

Kosovo - Since the Clinton aided muslim takeover of that country, roughly 1,000+ churches, monasteries and Christian cemeteries have been destroyed or desecrated, all Jews, Roma and most Christians have fled for their lives.

England - Bradford, Yorkshire, UK. Pop. 300,000 - 20% Islamic. Local police required to tell community elders the location of girls who run away to escape arranged marriages.

Bars and liquor stores in the Lumb Lane / Manningham Lane area of the city ‘requested’ to close on Fridays. Schools, colleges, and health clinics have to have separate areas for women, with a copy of the Koran available.

Public critcism of Islam or it’s adherents, such as letters to the local paper, emails to friends, speeches etc, can and has led to criminal charges ‘Using words intentionally and willfully to cause fear, hate, or distress.

Christmas decorations not to be put up, as this may make the moslims feel ‘culturally overshadowed’. Shops ‘requested’ not to display easter eggs for the same reason.

The term ‘requested’ means not legally enforceable but local police warn that they cannot intervene if your premises get ‘damaged’ somehow.

Local councillors and MPs have encouraged all this for the past 15 years. Bradford Northwest MP Ann Cryer regularly appears with long sleeves and her head covered. She once stated that women in Islam are properly liberated and that Islam is an example to us all.

(A world of other examples are available in Europe)

Meanwhile, in the United States in 2007, several school districts removed pork products from their cafeteria offerings. Dearborn, Mich., schools banned pork completely to avoid the possibility that muslims students might unknowingly eat it. The district later added special halal foods to its menu to cater to the demands of its Muslim population.

An elementary school in San Diego that offers Arabic, single-gender classes and muslim-only organized prayer, no longer offers pork to any of its students. And in Oak Lawn, Ill., where the administration is debating elimination of Christmas holiday celebrations, pork has already been banished from the school lunchroom.

(Thousands more concession made daily in America, and for what you ask?? Peace??)

Thanks for your advice, ask me some specific questions and I promise to be succinct and precise.

 

[gsvol]

Then give me your view of islam!

Compared to what? To make such a statement you must compare Islam to like institutions.

No, I must decipher what islamic leaders are saying.

Examples:

Some examples:

[QUOTE[
* Omar Abdel Rahman - the blind sheikh
later convicted of planning a "day of rage"
by blowing up New York buildings and
architecture - in 1991 called on Muslims
to "conquer the land of the infidels."

* A native-born American who converted
to Islam and helped fight the Soviets in
Afghanistan, then proclaimed that "it is
the duty of all Muslims to complete the
march of jihad [holy war] until we reach
America and liberate her."

* Isma'il Al-Faruqi, the first academic
theorist of a United States-made-
fundamentalist-Muslim, argued in 1983
that "Nothing could be greater than this
youthful, vigorous, and rich continent [of
North America] turning away from its past
evil and marching forward under the banner
of Allahu Akbar [God is great]."

* Siraj Wahaj, the first imam to deliver
a Muslim prayer for the U.S. House of
Representatives, holds that if Muslims
unite, they could elect their own leader
as president; "take my word, if 6-8 million
Muslims unite in America, the country will
come to us."

* Zaid Shakir, formerly the Muslim
chaplain at Yale University, believes the
Koran "pushes us in the exact opposite
direction as the forces at work in the
American political spectrum" and from
this argues that Muslims cannot accept
the legitimacy of the existing order.

* Masudul Alam Choudhury, a Canadian
professor of business, matter-of-factly
advocates the "Islamization agenda in
North America." Ahmad Nawfal, a Jordanian
who spoke often at American rallies a few
years ago, says that if fundamentalist
Muslims stand up, "it will be very easy for
us to preside over this world once again."

* Shamim A. Siddiqi wrote a book on
establishing "Islamic rule" in the United
States, with the goal of Muslims creating
"a strong lobby in Washington for the
promotion of Islam in this country as well
as elsewhere in the world."[/QUOTE]

I can produce thousands of more such statements from muslim leaders, where are your statements portraying any such arguments by any other political force??

What we have is a concerted effort to overthrow the government of the United States, we need to prosecute an program destroy those elements.

"The timid, civilized world has found nothing with which to oppose the onslaught of a sudden revival of barefaced barbarity, other than concessions
and smiles."
---Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Is Islam in dogma, doctrine, and history perverse compared to Christianity? No. Judaism? No.

You have to be out of your gourd to make such an asinine statement.

Does Islam, in 2009, resemble theo-political organizations of the Middle Ages? Yes.

Islam in 2009 is identical to it's bloodthirsty beginnings.

Who cares?? What matters is the islamo/fascist threat today.

You may continue to post pictures and an absurd number of words pointing out certain facts. However, the conclusions that those facts draw are not as you say.

Your conclusions are just what??

Do you find the facts disturbing??

Where are my facts and conclusions in conflict, specifically???

You would have a much easier time making the argument that all religious organizations are perverse, as compared to most civil institutions, than you are going to have in making the argument that Islam is perverse in comparison to Christianity and Judaism.

I'm not buying into your moral relativity arguments, I'm saying islam is perverse and I produce plenty of evidence to prove just that.

What facts do you dispute??

You should learn how to think for yourself and draw logical conclusions from facts. I think that would help everybody.

I know how to do just that.

Perhaps you should learn it yourself.

I have no idea if it would help anyone else but it might help you.

 

[therealUT]

I could produce pages of photos of jihadists in the former Yugolavia posing with the heads of slain Serbs, would that help??.

No.

I can produce thousands of more such statements from muslim leaders, where are your statements portraying any such arguments by any other political force??

Feel free to look research statements made and actions taken by Christian leaders during the Anglican Reformation, the Protestant Reformation, the Crusades, and the French Revolution. I have no doubt you will respond simply by throwing up "thousands of more such statements from Muslim leaders". This depresses me. Apparently, you have a job where people count on your ability to think. Sad.

What we have is a concerted effort to overthrow the government of the United States, we need to prosecute an program destroy those elements.

I do not disagree with this statement. I do not disagree that the people who are behind the effort are certain Muslims, either.

You have to be out of your gourd to make such an asinine statement.

No.

Islam in 2009 is identical to it's bloodthirsty beginnings.

The history of Islam has shown to be no more bloodthirsty than the history of Judaism and Christianity.

What matters is the islamo/fascist threat today.

The threat is with Islamo-fascists. Agreed. The threat is not from the whole of Islam. You, unfortunately, do not know how to separate the two. I, probably due to plenty of actual interface with Muslims, do.

I'm not buying into your moral relativity arguments, I'm saying islam is perverse and I produce plenty of evidence to prove just that.

Your evidence only leads to the conclusion that certain Muslims are perverse. In no way has your evidence shown that the dogma and doctrine of the religion itself is perverse. Again, I am quite sure that this will be followed by pages of quotes from contemporary Muslim jihadists.

 

[gsvol]

No.

You mentioned 'perverse.' One of the most perverse things in recent history is the fact that the vast majority of the American people think of the Serbians as evil aggressors and the muslims as peaceful victims in the recent Balkan wars when nothing could possibly be farther from the truth.

Feel free to look research statements made and actions taken by Christian leaders during the Anglican Reformation, the Protestant Reformation, the Crusades, and the French Revolution. I have no doubt you will respond simply by throwing up "thousands of more such statements from Muslim leaders".

I'm aware of that history, however you are cherry picking periods of unrest and struggles for political power and those statements are irrelevant today, in that they have been renounced and are no longer practiced, we see on the other hand islamic leaders continuing to preach violent jihad in our current times fairly unchanged over a 1400 year period of history and sadly this hate speech is allowed in the mosques in America.

And never forget, the Crusades were in response to islamic aggressions, war is brutal, there is no doubt about that.

A good for instance of what the crusaders were responding to was a village in southern Italy that was besieged prior to the Christian Crusades, the muslim forces weren't in a position to stay long enough to starve out the inhabitants, so they rounded up 20,000 peasants from the surrounding area and beheaded them before the walls of the town.

The best thing to come out of the Crusades was that the forces of islam were less aggressive in eastern and southern Europe for a couple of centuries and even were more respectful of Christians living in lands at the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea.

This depresses me. Apparently, you have a job where people count on your ability to think. Sad.

Apparently (as per usual) you have not the first clue about that which you so glibly and ignorantly expound.

You must work in an environment where everyone must pay lip service to politically correct group think, no wonder you feel depressed.

Bottom line on that statement is you must think you are losing some sort of debate and so you take a cheap personal shot at me. Bad form old chap.

I do not disagree with this statement. I do not disagree that the people who are behind the effort are certain Muslims, either.

Well only a radical muslim apologist would not agree on that.

Unfortunately I'm not sure America's top law enforcer Eric Holder would agree.

Holder might just be more likely to blame it on poverty and evil white discrimination and say that when we are able to overcome those things then the problem will go away.

No.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on your statement, unfortunately far too many people believe your politically correct statement to be the truth when it obviously isn't.

The history of Islam has shown to be no more bloodthirsty than the history of Judaism and Christianity.

Your statement is patently false.

"Jihad destroyed a Christian Middle East and a Christian North Africa. Soon it was the fate of the Persian Zoroastrian and the Hindu to be the victims of jihad.
Half of Christianity was lost.

Around 60 million Christians were slaughtered during the jihadic conquest. Where ever possible all evidence that there had been a Christian presence was erased.

Half of the glorious Hindu civilization was annihilated and 80 million Hindus killed.

The first Western Buddhists were the Greeks descended from Alexander the Great's army in what is now Afghanistan. Jihad destroyed all of Buddhism along the silk route. About 10 million Buddhists died.

Zoroastrianism was eliminated from Persia. The Jews became permanent dhimmis throughout Islam.

In Africa over 120 million Christians and animists have died over the last 1400 years of jihad.

Approximately 270 million nonbelievers died over the last 1400 years for the glory of political Islam. These are the Tears of Jihad which are not taught in any school."

In the twentieth century 2 million Christian Armenians were slaughtered in Turkey, 3/4 of a million Assyrian Christians were killed in Iraq and about 2 1/4 million black African Christians and animists have been killed so far in the Sudan.

Modern day slavery in the lands of Islam:

"A captured slave knows freedom, so to keep him you have to chain him," says Mr Messaoud.

"But a Mauritanian slave, whose parents and grandparents before him were slaves, doesn't need chains. He has been brought up as a domesticated animal." There are an estimated 90,000 Black Africans enslaved by Berbers in Mauritania.

The threat is with Islamo-fascists. Agreed. The threat is not from the whole of Islam. You, unfortunately, do not know how to separate the two. I, probably due to plenty of actual interface with Muslims, do.

Do you understand the meaning of the word; 'taqqiyah?'

I'll make it easy for you;

The word "al-Taqiyya" literally means: "Concealing or disguising one's beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies at a time of eminent danger, whether now or later in time, to save oneself from physical and/or mental injury." A one-word translation would be "Dissimulation."[1] But it may be clearer to call it lying. Taqiyyah is uttering with the tongue what one does not believe in the heart.[2]

What are their thoughts on renouncing Islam?

What are their thoughts on the 'Muslim Brotherhood?'

Muslim Brotherhood memo on organizing Muslims in North America said that all members "must understand their work in America is a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within, and 'sabotaging' its miserable house by their hands and the hands of believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions."

Your evidence only leads to the conclusion that certain Muslims are perverse. In no way has your evidence shown that the dogma and doctrine of the religion itself is perverse. Again, I am quite sure that this will be followed by pages of quotes from contemporary Muslim jihadists.

You introduced the word 'perverse' and attached it to my view of islam, I am only trying to present the facts as they exist today and it really isn't my job to classify or characterize islam, in a free world each person is free to do that for themselves, here is the dogma and doctrine of islam.

Islam is not only a religion, it is also a political ideology.

Muslims have typically divided the world into two spheres, known as the Dar al-Islam—the "house of Islam" or "house of submission" to God—and the
Dar al-Harb, or "house of war"—those who are at war with God.

This means that Muslims believe themselves to have a "manifest destiny." Since God must win in the end, the Dar al-Harb must be brought under the control of Muslim government and made part of the Dar al-Islam.

Since the Dar al-Harb by its nature is at war with God, it is unlikely that it will submit to God without a fight. Individual groups might be convinced to lay down their arms and join the Muslim community by various forms of pressure—economic or military—that fall short of war.

In history some groups have become Muslim in this way, either fearing Muslim conquest, desiring Muslim military aid against their own enemies, or aspiring to good trade relations with the Muslim world.

Islam proscribes a duty is known as jihad (Arabic, "struggle, fight"). Although it is binding on all Muslims.

Only by continual jihad could the manifest destiny of Islam to bring the world into submission to God be fulfilled.

Fear of the jihad has not entirely vanished even now, particularly among peoples who have known Muslim domination." Muslims conducted raids to capture slaves as far west as England and Ireland. They attacked Iceland, taking 800 slaves back to Africa and they plunged deep into Europe and even attacked and took slaves from North America.

They captured Sicily and invaded the Italian mainland. "Naples, Genoa, Ravenna, Ostia, and even Rome itself were all for a time pillaged or occupied by the Saracens.

Regarding violence against Jews and Christians, the Quran says, "Fight against those to whom the Scriptures were given as believe in neither God nor the last day, who do not forbid what God and his messenger have forbidden, and who do not embrace the true faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued"
(Surah 9:29).

 

[therealUT]

Regarding violence against Jews and Christians, the Quran says, "Fight against those to whom the Scriptures were given as believe in neither God nor the last day, who do not forbid what God and his messenger have forbidden, and who do not embrace the true faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued"
(Surah 9:29).

Have you ever read the Bible? Once again, please show me why that passage is worse than similar passages that can be found from Exodus through Joshua.

Any way, for anybody else who is interested, the following is a letter from Ali to Maalik. The Shia highly regard Ali and I find this letter, written while Islam was in its infancy, relevant to the conversation.

IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE BENEFICENT, THE MERCIFUL.​

These are the orders issued by the creature of Allah, Ali, the son Abu Taalib (a) to Maalik, the son of Ashtar when he appointed Maalik as the Governor of Egypt to collect Zakat there, to combat the enemies of Islam and Egypt, to work for the welfare of its people and to look after its prosperity.


I order you, Maalik, always to keep the fear of Allah in your mind, to give priority to His worship and to give preference to obeying His Commands over every other thing in life, to carefully and faithfully follow the commandments and interdictions as are given by the Holy Book and the traditions of the Holy Prophet (s) because the success of a man to attain happiness in this world and in the next depends upon these qualities, and a failure to achieve these attributes brings about total failure in both the worlds.


I order you to use your head, heart, hands and tongue to help the creatures of Allah because the Almighty Allah holds Himself responsible to help those who sincerely try their best to help Him. Allah has further ordered you to keep your desires under control, to keep yourself under restraint when extravagant and inordinate yearnings and cravings try to drive you towards vice and wickedness because usually your 'self' tries to incite and drag you towards infamy and damnation unless the Merciful Lord comes to your help.


Let it be known to you, Maalik, that I am sending you as a governor to a country which has seen many regimes before this. Some of them were benign, sympathetic and good, while others were tyrannical, oppressive and cruel. People will judge your regime as critically as you have studied the activities of other regimes and they will criticize you in the same way as you have censured or approved other rulers.

 

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You must know that a good and virtuous man is known and recognized by the good that is said about him and the praise which Allah has destined him to receive from others. Therefore, make your mind the source and fountain-head of good thoughts, good intentions and good deeds. This can only be attained by keeping a strict control on your desires and yearnings, however much they may try to incite and coerce you. Remember that the best way to do justice to your inner self and to keep it out of harm is to restrain it from vice and from things which the 'self' inordinately and irrationally desires.


Maalik! You must create in your mind kindness, compassion and love for your subjects. Do not behave towards them as if you are a voracious and ravenous beast and as if your success lies in devouring them.
Remember, Maalik, that amongst your subjects there are two kinds of people: those who have the same religion as you have; they are brothers to you, and those who have religions other than that of yours, they are human beings like you. Men of either category suffer from the same weaknesses and disabilities that human beings are inclined to, they commit sins, indulge in vices either intentionally or foolishly and unintentionally without realizing the enormity of their deeds. Let your mercy and compassion come to their rescue and help in the same way and to the same extent that you expect Allah to show mercy and forgiveness to you.


Maalik! You must never forget that if you are a ruler over them than the caliph is the ruler over you and Allah is the Supreme Lord over the caliph. And the reality is that He has appointed you as the governor and tested you through the responsibility of this rulership over them.
Never think of raising yourself to such a false prestige that you can declare war against Allah because you cannot ward off His Wrath and you can never be free from the need of His Mercy and Compassion.


Do not feel ashamed to forgive and forget. Do not hurry over punishments and do not be pleased and do not be proud of your power to punish. Do not get angry and lose your temper quickly over the mistakes and failures of those over whom you rule. On the contrary, be patient and sympathetic with them. Anger and desire of vengeance are not going to be of much help to you in your administration.


Never say to yourself, "I am their Lord, their ruler and all in all over them and that I must be obeyed submissively and humbly" because such a thought will unbalance your mind, will make you vain and arrogant, will weaken your faith in religion and will make you seek support of any power other than that of Allah . If you ever feel any pride or vanity on account of your sway and rule over your subjects then think of the supreme sway and rule of the Lord over the Universe, the extent of His creations, the supremacy of His Might and Glory, His Power to do things which you cannot even dream of doing and His control over you which is more dominating than that which you can ever achieve over anything around you. Such thoughts will cure your mental weakness, will keep you away from vanity and rebellion (against Allah), will reduce your arrogance and haughtiness and will take you back to the sanity which you had foolishly deserted.

 

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Take care never to think of bringing yourself at par with Allah, never to think of matching your power with Him and contesting His Glory and ever to pretend that you possess might and power like Him because the Mighty Lord will always humble pitiless tyrants and will degrade all pretenders of His Power and Might.


So far as your own affairs or those of your relatives and friends are concerned take care that you do not violate the duties laid down upon you by Allah and do not usurp the rights of mankind, be impartial and do justice to them because if you give up equity and justice then you will certainly be a tyrant and an oppressor. And whoever tyrannizes and oppresses the creatures of Allah, will earn enmity of Allah along with the hatred of those whom he has oppressed; and whoever earns the Wrath of Allah loses all chances of salvation and he has no excuse to offer on the Day of Judgement.


Every tyrant and oppressor is an enemy of Allah unless he repents and gives up oppression. Remember, Maalik! that there is nothing in this world more effective to turn His Blessings into His Wrath quicker than to insist upon oppression over His creatures because the Merciful Allah will always hear the prayers of those who have been oppressed and He will give no chance to oppressors.
You must always appreciate and adopt a policy which is neither too severe nor too lenient, a policy which is based upon equity will be largely appreciated. Remember that the displeasure of common men, the have-nots and the depressed persons more overbalances than the approval of important persons, while the displeasure of a few big people will be excused by the Lord if the general public and the masses of your subjects are happy with you.


Remember, Maalik! that usually these big personages are mentally the scum of the human society, they are the people who will be the worst drag upon you during your moments of peace and happiness, and the least useful to you during your hours of need and adversity, they hate justice the most, they will keep on demanding more and more out of the State resources and will seldom be satisfied with what they receive and will never be obliged for the favour shown to them if their demands are justifiable refused, they will never accept any reasonable excuse or any rational argument and when the time changes, you will never find them staunch, faithful and loyal.


While the common men, the poor and apparently the less important section of your subjects are the pillars of Islam, they are the real assemblage of Muslims and the power and defensive force against the enemies of Islam. Keep your mind on their affairs, be more friendly with them and secure their trust and goodwill.

 

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But be careful in forming your contacts (whether with the most important persons or the commoners); keep such people away from you and think them to be the enemy of the State who are scandal-mongers and who try to find fault with others and carry on propaganda against them because everywhere people have weaknesses and failings and it is the duty of the government to overlook (minor) shortcomings. You must not try to go in search of those weaknesses which are hidden from you, leave them to Allah, and about those weaknesses which come to your notice, you must try to teach them how to overcome them. Try not to expose the weaknesses of the people and Allah will conceal your own weaknesses which you do not want anybody to know.


Do not give cause to the people to envy each other (man against man, tribe against tribe or one section of the society against the other). Try to alleviate and root out mutual distrust and enmity from amongst your subjects.
Be fair, impartial and just in your dealings with all, individually and collectively and be careful not to make your person, position and favours act as sources of malice. Do not let any such thing or such person come near to you who does not deserve your nearness and your favour. Never lower your dignity and prestige.


Remember that backbiters and scandal-mongers belong to a mean and cunning group, though they pretend to be sincere advisers. Do not make haste to believe the news they bring and do not heed to their advice.


Do not accept the advice of misers, they will try their best to keep you away from acts of kindness and from doing good to others. They will make you frightened of poverty.
Similarly do not allow cowards to act as your advisers because they will make you timid in enforcing your orders, will scare you from handling important affairs boldly and will make your enterprises and invasions timid and timorous attempts. At the same time avoid greedy and covetous persons who would aspire to the position of acting as your counsellor because he will teach you how to exploit the community and how to oppress people to get their wealth. Remember that miserliness, cowardice and greed appear to be different wicked qualities but they all arise from the same evil mentality of having no faith and no trust in Allah.


Your worst ministers will be the men who had been ministers to the despotic rulers before you and who had been a party o atrocities committed by them. Such persons should not be taken into your confidence and should not be trusted because they have aided sinners and have assisted tyrants and cruel rulers.

 

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In their stead you can comfortably find persons who are equally wise and learned but who have not developed sinful and criminal mentalities, who have neither helped the tyrants in their tyrannies nor have they assisted them to carry on their sinful deeds. Such persons will prove the least troublesome to you. They will be the most helpful. They will sincerely sympathise with you. If you take them in your confidence they will sever their connections with your opponents. Keep such people with you as your companions in your informal company as well as in official gatherings in audience. From amongst such honest and humane companions and ministers some would receive your fullest confidence and trust. They are those who can always speak out the bitter truth to you and unreservedly and without fear of your status, can refuse to assist you or associate with you in the deeds which Allah does not like His good creatures to commit.
Select honest, truthful and pious people as your companions. Train them not to flatter you and not to seek your favour by false praises because flattery and false praises create vanity and conceit and they make a man lose sight of his real self and ignore his duties.


You should not treat good and bad people alike because in this way you will be discouraging good persons and at the same time emboldening the wicked to carry on their wickedness. Everyone should receive the treatment which his deeds make him deserve.


Try carefully to realize that a ruler can create goodwill in the minds of his subjects and can make them faithful and sincere to him only when he is kind and considerate to them, when he reduces their troubles, when he does not oppress them and when he never asks for things which are beyond their power.


These are the principles which you should keep in mind and act upon. Let your attitude be such that they do not lose faith in you because a good faith on their part will reduce many troubles of administration and will relieve you of many worries and anxieties. And so far as your confidence and trust is concerned, let it rest with those people whom you have tested in difficulties and whom you have befriended, but you should always mistrust those people whom you have wronged or who have proved themselves undeserving, inefficient or unfaithful.
Do not give up those practices and do not break those rules which good Muslims have evolved or introduced before you, which have created unity and amity among the various sections of the society and which have benefited the masses.


Do not break them and do not introduce innovations because if you do away with those good rules and traditions, the reward of having introduced them will go to those who evolved them and the punishment of having despoiled them will be your lot.

 

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You must know, Maalik, that the people over whom you rule are divided into classes and grades and the prosperity and welfare of each class of the society individually and collectively are so interdependent upon the well-being of the other classes that the whole set-up represents a closely woven net and reciprocal aspect. One class cannot exist peacefully, cannot live happily and cannot work without the support and good wishes of the other.


Amongst them there are the soldiers of the army of Allah who defend His cause, the next class is that of the secretaries of the State to whom duties of writing out and issuing special or general orders are assigned, the third group is of the judges and magistrates to administer justice, the fourth is of officers who maintain law and order and guard the peace and prosperity of the country. Then there are common men, the Muslims who pay the taxes levied by the government, and non-Muslims who pay the taxes levied by the government, and non-Muslims who pay tribute to the State (in lieu of taxes). Then comes the class of men who carry on various professions and trades and the last but not the least are the poor and the have-nots who are considered as the lowest class of the society. The Merciful Allah has fixed rights and duties of each one of them. They have been either mentioned in His Book or explained through the instructions of the Holy Prophet (s). A complete code of them is preserved with us.


As far as the soldiers are concerned, they are by the commands of Allah a fortress and stronghold to guard and defend the subjects and the State. They are the ornaments of the ruler and the country. They provide power and protection to the religion. They propagate and preserve peace among mankind. In fact, they are the real guardians of peace and through them good internal administration can be maintained. The upkeep and maintenance of an army depends upon the taxes collected by the State out of which Allah has fixed for them a share. With this amount they provide for their requirements, maintain themselves and their arms in sound position to defend the religion and the cause of justice.


The army and the common men (common citizens who pay taxes or tributes) are two important classes, but in a Welfare State their well-being cannot be guaranteed without proper functioning and preservation of the other classes, the judges and magistrates, the secretaries of the State and the officers of various departments who collect various revenues, maintain law and order as well as preserve peace and amity among the diverse classes of the society. They also guard the rights and privileges of the citizens and look to the performances of various duties by individuals and classes. And the prosperity of this whole set-up depends upon the traders and industrialists. They act as a medium between the consumers and the suppliers. They collect the requirements of the society. They exert to provide goods. They open up shops, markets and trading centres. Thus providing the consumers with their necessities, they relieve the citizens of the need of running after their requisites of life.


Then comes the class of the poor and the disabled persons. It is absolutely necessary that they should be looked after, helped and well-provided for. The Merciful Allah has explained the ways and means of maintaining and providing for each of these classes. And everyone of this class has the right upon the ruler of the State that at least minimum necessities for its well-being and contented living are provided.

 

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Remember, Maalik that Almighty Allah will not absolve any ruler from his obligations unless he sincerely tries his best to discharge his duties, invokes Allah to help him in their performance, remains steadfast and diligent on the path of truth and justice and bears all this whether the performance of these duties is congenial or hateful to him.


So far as the army is concerned its chief and commander should be a person who is most sincere and faithful to Allah, to the Holy Prophet (s) and to your Imam who is most pious, who is famous for his forbearance, clemency and gentleness, who is neither short-tempered nor does he get angry quickly, who sympathetically treats sincere excuses and accepts apologies, who is kind and compassionate with the weak, but severe against the strong and the powerful, who has no vindictiveness which might lead to violence or any inferiority complex or weak-mindedness which makes them helpless and dejected. To find and select such persons you should have contacts with pious and noble families with high ideals and exalted traditions, families well-known for their bravery and courage and generosity and magnanimity. They are the people who may be considered as sources of magnificence and sublimity of character and fountain-heads of piety and good deeds.


When you have found and selected such persons then keep an eye over them and watch them as parents watch their children so that you may find out if there appears any change in their behaviour. Treat them kindly and sympathetically. Do not grudge highest considerations to them (if they rightly deserve) and do not refuse small mercies. This kind of treatment will create reciprocal tendencies in them and they will trust you and will be faithful to you. Under the impression that you have paid enough attention to their major necessities and wants, do not close your eyes to their minor requirements and needs because small favours often bear better fruits though careful attention to major necessities is very important. Among the military officers those should receive your highest respect and consideration who pay most attention to the needs of the soldiers under their command who come forward to help the soldiers with their personal means and property so that the soldiers may lead a happy and contented life and may have full confidence of the future of their families and children.


If the soldiers are thus satisfied and are free from anxieties and care then they will bravely and wholeheartedly face the conflicts. Your constant attention towards the officers and soldiers will make them love you more and more.


The thing which should most gladden the heart of a ruler is the fact that his State is being ruled on the principles of equity and justice and that his subjects love him. And your subjects will only love you when they have no grievance against you. Their sincerity and loyalty will be proved if they gather around you to support your government, when they accept your authority without considering it an unbearable burden on their heads and when they do not secretly wish your rule to come to an end. So let them have as many justifiable hopes in you as they can and fulfil as many as you reasonably can. Speak well of those who deserve your praise. Appreciate the good deeds done by them and let these good actions be known publicly.


The correct and timely publicity of noble actions and golden deeds creates more zeal in the minds of the brave and emboldens the cowards and the weaklings. You must know and realize the good deeds done by every single individual so that the credit of noble deeds done by one may not be given to another. Do not underestimate and underpay the good work done. Similarly do not overpay a work simply because it has been done by a very important person and do not let his position and prestige be the cause of overvaluation of the merit of his work and at the same time do not undervalue a great deed if it is done by a very ordinary person or a commoner. Let equity, justice and fairplay be your motto.


When you are faced with problems which you cannot solve or with a difficult situation from which you cannot escape or when uncertain and doubtful circumstances confuse and perplex you, then turn to Allah and the Holy Prophet (s) because Allah has thus ordered those whom He wants to guide. The way to turn to Allah is to act diligently according to the clear and explicit orders given in His Holy Book and to the turn to the Holy Prophet (s) means to follow those of his orders about which there is no doubt and ambiguity and which have been generally accepted to be correctly recorded.

 

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So far as dispensing of justice is concerned, you have to be very careful in selecting officers for the same. You must select people of excellent character and high calibre and with meritorious records. They must possess the following qualifications: Abundance of litigations and complexity of cases should not make them lose their temper.


When they realize that they have committed a mistake in judgement they should not insist on it by trying to justify it. When truth is made clear to them or when the right path opens up before them, they should not consider it below their dignity to correct the mistake made or to undo the wrong done by them. They should not be corrupt, covetous or greedy. They should not be satisfied with ordinary enquiry or scrutiny of a case, but should scrupulously go through all the pros and cons, they must examine every aspect of the problem carefully, and whenever and wherever they find doubtful and ambiguous points, they must stop, go through further details, clear the points, and only then proceed with their decisions. They must attach the greatest importance to reasoning, arguments and proofs. They should not get tired of lengthy discussions and arguments. They must exhibit patience and perseverance in scanning the details, in testing the points presented as true, in sifting facts from fiction and when truth is revealed to them they must pass their judgements without fear, favour or prejudice.


They should not develop vanity and conceit when compliments and praises are showered upon them. They should not be mislead by flattery and cajolery. But unfortunately they are few persons having such characteristics. After you have selected such men to act as your judges, make it a point to go through some of their judgements and to check their proceedings. Pay them handsomely so that their needs are fully satisfied and they are not required to beg or borrow or resort to corruption. Give them such a prestige and position in your State that none of your courtiers or officers can overlord them or bring harm to them. Let judiciary be above every kind of executive pressure or influence, above fear or favour, intrigue or corruption. Take every particular care of this aspect because before your appointment this State was under the sway of corrupt, time-serving and wealth-grasping opportunists who were lewd, greedy and vicious and who wanted nothing out of a State but a sinful consent of amassing wealth and pleasures for themselves.


Then come the officers of your State. You must supervise their work. They must be appointed after a careful scrutiny of their capabilities and characters. These appointments must be made originally on probation without any kind of favouritism being shown or influence being accepted otherwise tyranny, corruption and misrule will reign in your State. While selecting your officers take care to select experienced and honourable persons, members of respectable families who had served Islam during its early days because these are usually of noble character and good repute. They are not greedy and cannot be easily bribed. They mostly have before them the ultimate result of their thoughts and their deeds. Keep them also well-paid so that they may not be tempted to lower their standard of morality and may not misappropriate the cash of the State which they hold in their trust and if after being paid handsomely they prove dishonest, then you will be right to punish them. Therefore keep a careful watch over their system of work and rule.


You may also appoint trustworthy and honest men to keep a watch over the activities of these officers. The knowledge that they are being watched secretly will keep them away from dishonesty, misrule, malpractice and tyrannizing the subjects. Protect your government from dishonest officers. If you find any of them dishonest and your confidential intelligence service submits acceptable proofs of his dishonesty, then you must punish him. This may be corporal punishment besides dismissal from service and taking back from him all which he has dishonestly collected. He must be humiliated and must be made to realize the infamy of his wicked deeds. His humiliation and punishment must be given publicly so that it may serve as a lesson and a deterrent to others.
So far as collection of land revenues and taxes are concerned you must always keep in view the welfare of the tax-payers which is of primary importance than the taxes themselves because these taxes and the tax-payers are the original sources on which the welfare of your State and its subjects depend.


A State really lives upon the revenues collected from the tax-payers. Therefore, more importance should be attached to the fertility of land than to the collection of taxes because actual taxable capacity of people rests upon the fertility of the land. The ruler, who does not pay attention to the prosperity of his subjects and fertility of the land but concentrates only on collection of revenues, lays waste the land and consequently ruins the State and brings destruction to the creatures of Allah. His rule cannot last for long.

 

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If the tax-payers complain to you of the heavy incidence to taxation, of any accidental calamity, of the vagaries of the monsoons, of the recession of the means of irrigation, of floods or destruction of their crops on account of excessive rainfall and if their complaints are true, then reduce their taxes. This reduction should be such that it provides them opportunities to improve their conditions and eases them of their troubles.


Decrease in State-income due to such reasons should not depress you because the best investment for a ruler is to help his subjects at the time of their difficulties. They are the real wealth of a country and any investment on them even in the form of reduction of taxes, will be returned to the State in the shape of the prosperity of its cities and improvement of the country at large. At the same time you will be in a position to command and secure their love, respect and praises along with the revenues. Will that not be a lasting happiness?


Not only this, but your benign rule and humane treatment will so affect them that they will come to your help at the time of your difficulties and you will be able to rely on their support. Your kindness, your clemency and your justice will be a kind of moral training to them, and the contented, happy and prosperous life, for which they will be grateful to you, will be the best support, strongest protection and the greatest treasury for you.


Later if such circumstances arrive that you find yourself in need of their support, their help, their confidence, their wealth and their man-power, then they will have no grudge against you.


Remember, Maalik! If a country is prosperous and if its people are well-to-do then it will happily and willingly bear any burden.


The poverty of the people is the actual cause of the devastation and ruination of a country and the main cause of the poverty of the people is the desire of its ruler and officers to amass wealth and possessions whether by fair or foul means. They are afraid of losing their posts or positions and sway or rule and want to make the most during the shortest time at their disposal. They never learn any lesson from the history of nations and never pay any attention to the commands of Allah.
You will also have to be very careful about your secretaries. You should entrust your work only to those who are the best among them.


Specially the affairs which are of confidential nature and which deal with secrets, and the security of the State should be entrusted only to men of noble character because men who are intoxicated with power, position and prestige carry on propaganda and speak against the government in public, they openly misbehave with you and consider themselves so important as to ignore you or your orders in financial transactions essential to the State, they avoid placing necessary papers before you or attending to important correspondence.