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About this Page -- This is a discussion on Liberal "tolerance". within the forum Politics. Tolerance fails T-shirt test By John Kass Chicago Tribune Columnist 12:12 PM EST, November 13, 2008 As the media keeps ...

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Old 11-14-2008, 10:36 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Liberal "tolerance"

Tolerance fails T-shirt test

By John Kass

Chicago Tribune Columnist

12:12 PM EST, November 13, 2008

As the media keeps gushing on about how America has finally adopted tolerance as the great virtue, and that we're all united now, let's consider the Brave Catherine Vogt Experiment.

Catherine Vogt, 14, is an Illinois 8th grader, the daughter of a liberal mom and a conservative dad. She wanted to conduct an experiment in political tolerance and diversity of opinion at her school in the liberal suburb of Oak Park.

She noticed that fellow students at Gwendolyn Brooks Middle School overwhelmingly supported Barack Obama for president. His campaign kept preaching "inclusion," and she decided to see how included she could be.

So just before the election, Catherine consulted with her history teacher, then bravely wore a unique T-shirt to school and recorded the comments of teachers and students in her journal. The T-shirt bore the simple yet quite subversive words drawn with a red marker:

"McCain Girl."

"I was just really curious how they'd react to something that different, because a lot of people at my school wore Obama shirts and they are big Obama supporters," Catherine told us. "I just really wanted to see what their reaction would be."

Immediately, Catherine learned she was stupid for wearing a shirt with Republican John McCain's name. Not merely stupid. Very stupid.

"People were upset. But they started saying things, calling me very stupid, telling me my shirt was stupid and I shouldn't be wearing it," Catherine said.

Then it got worse.

"One person told me to go die. It was a lot of dying. A lot of comments about how I should be killed," Catherine said, of the tolerance in Oak Park.

But students weren't the only ones surprised that she wore a shirt supporting McCain.

"In one class, I had one teacher say she will not judge me for my choice, but that she was surprised that I supported McCain," Catherine said.

If Catherine was shocked by such passive-aggressive threats from instructors, just wait until she goes to college.

"Later, that teacher found out about the experiment and said she was embarrassed because she knew I was writing down what she said," Catherine said.

One student suggested that she be put up on a cross for her political beliefs.

"He said, 'You should be crucifixed.' It was kind of funny because, I was like, don't you mean 'crucified?' " Catherine said.

Other entries in her notebook involved suggestions by classmates that she be "burned with her shirt on" for "being a filthy-rich Republican."

Some said that because she supported McCain, by extension she supported a plan by deranged skinheads to kill Obama before the election. And I thought such politicized logic was confined to American newsrooms. Yet Catherine refused to argue with her peers. She didn't want to jeopardize her experiment.

"I couldn't show people really what it was for. I really kind of wanted to laugh because they had no idea what I was doing," she said.

Only a few times did anyone say anything remotely positive about her McCain shirt. One girl pulled her aside in a corner, out of earshot of other students, and whispered, "I really like your shirt."

That's when you know America is truly supportive of diversity of opinion, when children must whisper for fear of being ostracized, heckled and crucifixed.

The next day, in part 2 of The Brave Catherine Vogt Experiment, she wore another T-shirt, this one with "Obama Girl" written in blue. And an amazing thing happened.

Catherine wasn't very stupid anymore. She grew brains.

"People liked my shirt. They said things like my brain had come back, and I had put the right shirt on today," Catherine said.

Some students accused her of playing both sides.

"A lot of people liked it. But some people told me I was a flip-flopper," she said. "They said, 'You can't make up your mind. You can't wear a McCain shirt one day and an Obama shirt the next day.' "

But she sure did, and she turned her journal into a report for her history teacher, earning Catherine extra credit. We asked the teacher, Norma Cassin-Pountney, whether it was ironic that Catherine would be subject to such intolerance from pro-Obama supporters in a community that prides itself on its liberal outlook.

"That's what we discussed," Cassin-Pountney said about the debate in the classroom when the experiment was revealed. "I said, here you are, promoting this person [Obama] that believes we are all equal and included, and look what you've done? The students were kind of like, 'Oh, yeah.' I think they got it."

Catherine never told us which candidate she would have voted for if she weren't an 8th grader. But she said she learned what it was like to be in the minority.

"Just being on the outside, how it felt, it was not fun at all," she said.

Don't ever feel as if you must conform, Catherine. Being on the outside isn't so bad. Trust me.

jskasstribune.com

Copyright © 2008, South Florida Sun-Sentinel
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Old 11-14-2008, 11:48 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Tolerance fails T-shirt test

By John Kass

Chicago Tribune Columnist
That is truly pathetic. The reactions of 8th graders are now the litmus test for liberal tolerance? The only adult quoted in that article expressed disagreement in a reasonable manner. Wonder how an Obama t-shirt would go over in a McCain stronghold in Alabama.

There is really no need to stoop as low as this for support that the left is just as intolerant as the right. There is an abundance of more credible evidence out there.
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Old 11-14-2008, 11:54 AM   #3 (permalink)
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you see ppl wear obama shirts in alabama all the time. i don't say anything, nor do i see others saying anything. i'm a conservative, but everyone is entitled to their opinion
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Old 11-14-2008, 12:06 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Wonder how an Obama t-shirt would go over in a McCain stronghold in Alabama.
I'm guessing the point is that it is the liberal side that is always so very strident in their claims of being the "tolerant" ones. To a liberal, such a reaction to an Obama shirt in your scenario is precisely what is both expected and to be condemned.

They, of course, can act the same way with impunity.
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Old 11-14-2008, 12:10 PM   #5 (permalink)
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you see ppl wear obama shirts in alabama all the time. i don't say anything, nor do i see others saying anything. i'm a conservative, but everyone is entitled to their opinion
You missed my point. These are 8th graders in an Obama stronghold. I'm saying immature 8th graders in a McCain area would probably react the same way to an Obama shirt. You can find plenty of evidence of intolerant liberal adults all over the country. I just thought this article proved very little with regard to liberal intolerance because (1) middle schoolers don't have a clue what their talking about and (2) kids love to say mean things to other kids.
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Old 11-14-2008, 12:17 PM   #6 (permalink)
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They, of course, can act the same way with impunity.
I think that article and this thread suggest otherwise. I'm not arguing the point, mainly making fun of the article and its use of 8th graders' reactions to prove the point. Trust me, I lived in the bastion of liberal intolerance, aka Manhattan (not Kansas), for a number of years.
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Old 11-14-2008, 01:21 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I think that article and this thread suggest otherwise. I'm not arguing the point, mainly making fun of the article and its use of 8th graders' reactions to prove the point. Trust me, I lived in the bastion of liberal intolerance, aka Manhattan (not Kansas), for a number of years.
I'm not trying to be argumentative either, I submitted a story for others to review and take want they want from it. However, I strongly disagree with the dismissal of this by age bias. Having an 8th grader so indoctrinated that they would say those kinds of things (crucify, burn along with your shirt, etc) I find very disturbing. And remember, we're not talking about what they think to themselves, we're talking state outright to her.

Everybody has a right to interpret this sort of thing how they like and we don't seem to see it in exactly the same way, which is fine.
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Old 11-14-2008, 01:42 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I think that this speaks much more to the indoctrination of youth into the divisiveness currently at play in the US than it does to a failure of liberal tolerance. Obviously, 8th graders understand very little about tolerance...about anything. Perhaps 20-something's don't know that much more about it...but to serve it up as an example of liberalism gone wrong would be better made at that age level.

However, I do think that there is an important point to be inferred from the article. The divisiveness and charged political atmosphere that has been brewing in recent years has obviously reached down into the nation's youth as well...which I can't see as a good thing. I'll be honest, I didn't have a clue about democrats and republicans beyond knowing which one was in the white house when I was in 8th grade. I'm sure the country has been divided for....forever?....but I don't know of many of my classmates who would have been this outraged by something political when I was in 8th grade....
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Old 11-14-2008, 02:56 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I'm not trying to be argumentative either, I submitted a story for others to review and take want they want from it. However, I strongly disagree with the dismissal of this by age bias. Having an 8th grader so indoctrinated that they would say those kinds of things (crucify, burn along with your shirt, etc) I find very disturbing. And remember, we're not talking about what they think to themselves, we're talking state outright to her.

Everybody has a right to interpret this sort of thing how they like and we don't seem to see it in exactly the same way, which is fine.
I don't think indoctrination is a left or right thing, more of a human thing. The hate and intolerance exists on each side pretty much equally. I think the young age is relevant because kids, as a general rule, can be very mean and say mean things to each other. I agree that the extent of the abuse is disturbing and we should be teaching them better.

Again, I'd like to point out that the only adult quoted in the article made a reasonable statement of disagreement with the girl's views.
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Old 11-14-2008, 03:01 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Yeah, real scientific and obviously we can generalize from this "experiment" that all liberals everywhere are mean and close minded. I mean, this proves it, right?

Old Fox News running this left and right. I am sure she did not manufacture any part of this or haver her own taint to it, right? Wonder about her parents. Probably Joihn Birch Society types. Got the idea from the lady in my avatar, no doubt.

More fear mongering and made up crap from the right. Do they not get tired of such obvious shenanigans?
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Old 11-14-2008, 03:03 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Yeah, real scientific and obviously we can generalize from this "experiment" that all liberals everywhere are mean and close minded. I mean, this proves it, right?

Old Fox News running this left and right. I am sure she did not manufacture any part of this or haver her own taint to it, right? Wonder about her parents. Probably Joihn Birch Society types. Got the idea from the lady in my avatar, no doubt.

More fear mongering and made up crap from the right. Do they not get tired of such obvious shenanigans?
when was the last time you went through this charade over the crap from MSNBC, er...well....everyone else? Seriously?
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Old 11-14-2008, 03:05 PM   #12 (permalink)
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when was the last time you went through this charade over the crap from MSNBC, er...well....everyone else? Seriously?

Like for instance?
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Old 11-14-2008, 03:09 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Like for instance?
I don't log them as you do, but they're out there daily. The crap from the NYT is freaking embarrassing, but you never seem to find your voice when it comes up.

Amazingly, this board doesn't spend an enormous amount of time spitting out obviously liberal slant in stories, but you seem to always find the time to overdo the conservative slant in anything.

Pretending that it doesn't exist across the board in our schools is just absurdity, to boot.
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Old 11-14-2008, 03:11 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I don't log them as you do, but they're out there daily. The crap from the NYT is freaking embarrassing, but you never seem to find your voice when it comes up.

Amazingly, this board doesn't spend an enormous amount of time spitting out obviously liberal slant in stories, but you seem to always find the time to overdo the conservative slant in anything.

Pretending that it doesn't exist across the board in our schools is just absurdity, to boot.

Ok. Well, when you see an equivalent one from MSNBC go ahead and put it on.
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Old 11-14-2008, 03:12 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Yeah, real scientific and obviously we can generalize from this "experiment" that all liberals everywhere are mean and close minded. I mean, this proves it, right?

Old Fox News running this left and right. I am sure she did not manufacture any part of this or haver her own taint to it, right? Wonder about her parents. Probably Joihn Birch Society types. Got the idea from the lady in my avatar, no doubt.

More fear mongering and made up crap from the right. Do they not get tired of such obvious shenanigans?
It sounds to me like she is a very level headed young girls born to a liberal mother and conservative father. She conducted an experiment and recorded the results. Claiming she has some agenda here is a big stretch. From the tone of your response one would gather this girl provoked the responses she got or deserved it in some way.

This is not fear mongering from the right in the least on her part. What others do with her results may be but why even claim she manufactured this? It sounds like you may be the fear monger here.
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