Nelson Mandela Found a Way to Completely Lose My Respect

[KB5252]

Originally Posted by 615 Vol

I would just like to add that not all poor people are lazy and a lot of wealthy people obtain their wealth off the poor.

If you mean by offering services the poor people need you would be correct. Please clarify so I understand your position.

[volinbham]

Originally Posted by TennNC

And you think only those without means are using Social Security, Medicare, and income security? I'm pretty sure those programs don't discriminate based on means.

I'm looking for a number that we spend annually on "lazy" people who make "poor choices" who end up poor and therefore just survive on government paychecks - you know, "welfare queens" and such. What's that total?

I think a big part of the problem is the "entitlement" mentality that we've created. You're right - we spend a huge % of total spending to provide entitlements based on belonging to some special class.

These entitlements don't go away. Instead, they grow and seep into a greater and greater portion of society. People now expect the government to be the back up for all their decisions and why not? Some politician will always tell you (us) it's not your (our) fault and introduce legislation to shift resources towards the "issue".

[BigPapaVol]

Originally Posted by TennNC

In regards to the bold, so that's what Jesus meant when he said, "Blessed are the poor, for they shall inherit the earth"?

And let me get this straight - b/c you feel Mandela hasn't properly acknowledged that the wealthy "earned" their means, you're going to completely disregard the notion that you should help out those who are starving. Because some poor people are "lazy" or have made "poor decisions," we should disregard the needs of them all?

Sounds like a pretty easy way to clear one's conscience of doing nothing.

do you really think Jesus was talking about the financially poor? If I recall, your father is/was a pastor, maybe you should ask him to help you with what that particular beatitude was saying.

There is no "you should help the starving." That is simply a trite maxim. While I agree that help be made available, it is not a moral responsibility. We are all here to fend for ourselves, except for those with physical or mental disabilities. I'm all for helping those folks at every turn.

I've never said we shouldn't help people, I'm just saying that Mandela's view toward pure wealth redistro, and make no mistake, that was exactly what he was talking about, is absolute garbage and is not the truism he proclaims it to be.

My parents grew up in sharecropping cotton farming families, 10 brothers and sisters each, poor as dirt, generally uneducated, but nobody cried for them. They put their noses down and worked for every little thing they could have. That mentality is absolutely missing in the Mandela approach to bettering the situation for the poor. As long as someone will show up with some assistance, it'll be alright. Call it harsh, but I'm much more about the lasting value in folks figuring out how to get there on their own, much like the give a man a fish....."

My conscience has no issues with helping since I do plenty through my church, but I don't buy this kind of drivel from socialists of Mandela's ilk. Again, he's trying to make this a moral responsibility that it just isn't.

[BigPapaVol]

Originally Posted by 615 Vol

I would just like to add that not all poor people are lazy and a lot of wealthy people obtain their wealth off the poor.

I'm not saying that all poor people are lazy. I'm saying the lazy are a substantial portion of the poor and I have no intention of supporting that problem.

The notion that the wealthy obtain their wealth from the poor is the most Marxist idea I have seen here and your not the first to float it.

Wonder why you didn't say that hordes are not poor because the wealthy take enormous risks with their capital and provide the vast majority of jobs in the world?

[VolDad]

Originally Posted by TennNC

And you think only those without means are using Social Security, Medicare, and income security? I'm pretty sure those programs don't discriminate based on means.

I'm looking for a number that we spend annually on "lazy" people who make "poor choices" who end up poor and therefore just survive on government paychecks - you know, "welfare queens" and such. What's that total?

It is hard to say...since many of the programs you speak of are spread across multiple categories (i.e. income security ,which you mention above, includes food stamps and welfare housing.

Originally Posted by TennNC

..... I don't think most of the people who need help have family members or churches readily available to help them.....

So you think that a government agency that you must track down, find transportation to, stand in line for hours at, and complete paperwork, etc… is more readily available than a family member, church, or charity. I will bet it is easier to reach a family member and aren’t churches on almost every corner?

I will bet they pass numerous family members and churches on the way to the government agency.

[BigPapaVol]

Originally Posted by TennNC

I'm looking for a number that we spend annually on "lazy" people who make "poor choices" who end up poor and therefore just survive on government paychecks - you know, "welfare queens" and such. What's that total?

Is 1 not too many?

[TennNC]

Originally Posted by volinbham

I think a big part of the problem is the "entitlement" mentality that we've created. You're right - we spend a huge % of total spending to provide entitlements based on belonging to some special class.

These entitlements don't go away. Instead, they grow and seep into a greater and greater portion of society. People now expect the government to be the back up for all their decisions and why not? Some politician will always tell you (us) it's not your (our) fault and introduce legislation to shift resources towards the "issue".

So, is rising gas prices one example? Should we tell people to suck it up? Or should the government intervene?

[KB5252]

Originally Posted by TennNC

So, is rising gas prices one example? Should we tell people to suck it up? Or should the government intervene?

No, the government needs to get out of the way and let us produce!

[TennNC]

Originally Posted by BigPapaVol

do you really think Jesus was talking about the financially poor? If I recall, your father is/was a pastor, maybe you should ask him to help you with what that particular beatitude was saying.

There is no "you should help the starving." That is simply a trite maxim. While I agree that help be made available, it is not a moral responsibility. We are all here to fend for ourselves, except for those with physical or mental disabilities. I'm all for helping those folks at every turn.

My father would absolutely tell me that a key tenet of Christianity, of Jesus' teachings, is to give to those in need as a general principle, whether that be a family member, a good friend, or a complete stranger.

Luke 3:11. And [John the Baptist] would answer and say to them, "Let the man with two tunics share with him who has none, and let him who has food do likewise."

How do you interpret that?

[volinbham]

Originally Posted by TennNC

So, is rising gas prices one example? Should we tell people to suck it up? Or should the government intervene?

Encouraging the development of alternate energy sources (or getting out of the way in the case of off-shore drilling) is within the scope. Giving rebates is not.

[TennNC]

Originally Posted by BigPapaVol

My parents grew up in sharecropping cotton farming families, 10 brothers and sisters each, poor as dirt, generally uneducated, but nobody cried for them. They put their noses down and worked for every little thing they could have. That mentality is absolutely missing in the Mandela approach to bettering the situation for the poor. As long as someone will show up with some assistance, it'll be alright. Call it harsh, but I'm much more about the lasting value in folks figuring out how to get there on their own, much like the give a man a fish....."

You're obviously financially independent, successful - probably among the wealthiest 1% of the world. How did you get the opportunity to attain that wealth? What happened between your parents' generation and yours to get out of poverty and into your current lifestyle?

And do you think everyone can do the same?

[TennNC]

Originally Posted by volinbham

Encouraging the development of alternate energy sources (or getting out of the way in the case of off-shore drilling) is within the scope. Giving rebates is not.

What about invading a country with plenty of oil resources? Is that within the scope?

[TennNC]

Originally Posted by BigPapaVol

I'm not saying that all poor people are lazy. I'm saying the lazy are a substantial portion of the poor

How do you know this?

[BigPapaVol]

Originally Posted by TennNC

My father would absolutely tell me that a key tenet of Christianity, of Jesus' teachings, is to give to those in need as a general principle, whether that be a family member, a good friend, or a complete stranger.

Luke 3:11. And [John the Baptist] would answer and say to them, "Let the man with two tunics share with him who has none, and let him who has food do likewise."

How do you interpret that?

I think they said let him who has means share with those without. Where this falls short is the definition of need? They don't define it, you didn't define it and we all have a different viewpoint.

Him who has none is a different guy to you and I. I'm all for helping those who justifiably have none. Otherwise, I'm all for those who have none but have the wherewithal to fill the gap, figuring it out.

I guess you're all for the blanket statement that it's a moral responsibility to give to everyone who deserves it and that we should all have relatively equal financial outcomes.

[BigPapaVol]

Originally Posted by TennNC

You're obviously financially independent, successful - probably among the wealthiest 1% of the world. How did you get the opportunity to attain that wealth? What happened between your parents' generation and yours to get out of poverty and into your current lifestyle?

And do you think everyone can do the same?

My parents shoved education down my throat and told me to get a scholarship or lump it.

Everyone can't do the same. Everyone doesn't need to do the same. Everyone can make the effort it takes to provide for themselves. Those incapable due to physical or mental infirmity, again, I'm all for helping.