Correctional Free Lunch

#1
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therealUT

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#1
W. David Ball’s proposal begins with defunding state prisons, and making the counties pay for every inmate they incarcerate. In a recent paper, Ball argues that states should take the money they’re currently spending on their prison systems, distribute it among counties based on their violent crime rate, and allow local decision-makers to spend it as they see fit. If county officials want to use the money to fund crime prevention programs, they can; if they want to use it to put lots of convicted felons in prison, they can do that too.

Overzealous prosecutors: Hold them accountable by defunding state prisons and making counties pay.
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Interesting idea.
 
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#2
#2
Interesting but all I see is counties building their own prisons and selling beds to other counties. Private for profit prisons would need to be eliminated, which I'm all for.

Right now IMO the quickest cure(s) would be to eliminate elected prosecutors and judges, make service as such (for a determined amount of time) a prerequisite to being a member of the local bar. Also for each felony prosecution the DA would have to estimate a budget and the defendant gets an equal amount to spend on their defense.
 
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#7
#7
therealUT said:
Interesting idea.
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I like everything except for giving money based on crime rate. Doesn't that encourage counties to continue locking more people up?

Edit: I guess not since it's based on crime rate. But I'd still rather have it distributed by population.
 
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Vol8188 said:
I like everything except for giving money based on crime rate. Doesn't that encourage counties to continue locking more people up?

Edit: I guess not since it's based on crime rate. But I'd still rather have it distributed by population.
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Without some qualification, it certainly encourages counties to raise their crime rates, though not necessarily their incarceration rates. So, some type of carrot would have to be in place to get rid of the incentive to inflate reported crime (or, charge more individuals with crimes).
 
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hog88 said:
Interesting but all I see is counties building their own prisons and selling beds to other counties. Private for profit prisons would need to be eliminated, which I'm all for.
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Possible consequence, yet those counties would still be facing a choice they do not now face: spend this money from the state on other services or spend it on sending persons to jail.
 
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therealUT said:
Possible consequence, yet those counties would still be facing a choice they do not now face: spend this money from the state on other services or spend it on sending persons to jail.
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They will spend it sending people to jail. They would tout it as job creation.
 
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hog88 said:
They will spend it sending people to jail. They would tout it as job creation.
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They could just as easily tout job creation by simply using the money to hire non-prison employees, though.

The implicit claim of this article appears to be that imprisoning criminals is the easy and cost-free solution for the county because the state pays the tab and there is no real opportunity cost to the county. If opportunity costs existed, if the county had to decide to spend that money specifically on imprisoning an individual, then they at least face a real decision.

It seems like the worst-case scenario here (aside from the problem 8188 addressed) is that the situation would not drastically change from the current situation.
 
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therealUT said:
They could just as easily tout job creation by simply using the money to hire non-prison employees, though.

The implicit claim of this article appears to be that imprisoning criminals is the easy and cost-free solution for the county because the state pays the tab and there is no real opportunity cost to the county. If opportunity costs existed, if the county had to decide to spend that money specifically on imprisoning an individual, then they at least face a real decision.

It seems like the worst-case scenario here (aside from the problem 8188 addressed) is that the situation would not drastically change from the current situation.
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It's just a pie in the sky unworkable proposal. The only cure I think that is possible is in my earlier post.
 
#14
#14
hog88 said:
Interesting but all I see is counties building their own prisons and selling beds to other counties. Private for profit prisons would need to be eliminated, which I'm all for.

Right now IMO the quickest cure(s) would be to eliminate elected prosecutors and judges, make service as such (for a determined amount of time) a prerequisite to being a member of the local bar. Also for each felony prosecution the DA would have to estimate a budget and the defendant gets an equal amount to spend on their defense.
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In Pennsylvania we have 26 State facilities and the rest are county prisons. County prisons are run by the county sheriffs and funded at the county level. The prison in York County rents beds to ICE and other federal agencies to stay solvent.
 
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hog88 said:
It's just a pie in the sky unworkable proposal. The only cure I think that is possible is in my earlier post.
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Unlike many proposals, I do not see this as pie-in-the-sky. I see this as readily workable and policy that those on the state and the local level would be in favor of, since it costs the state nothing extra and provides counties with discretion over a good deal of funding.

You are correct, though, the for profit prison lobby will be a barrier. Yet, I think this barrier can be overcome (at least in a few states, at first, then slow growth to more states).
 
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money_fire.jpg
 
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therealUT said:
Unlike many proposals, I do not see this as pie-in-the-sky. I see this as readily workable and policy that those on the state and the local level would be in favor of, since it costs the state nothing extra and provides counties with discretion over a good deal of funding.

You are correct, though, the for profit prison lobby will be a barrier. Yet, I think this barrier can be overcome (at least in a few states, at first, then slow growth to more states).
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What would be done with the prisoners currently in the state institutions and the prisons themselves?
 
#18
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hog88 said:
What would be done with the prisoners currently in the state institutions and the prisons themselves?
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Nothing in this proposal calls for the elimination of the state prisons, just for the funding mechanism to change. For the prisoners that are currently sitting in state prisons, I would suggest that the counties that sent them there either pay the tab going forward or parole the individuals.

Remember, the current state budget for prisoner housing and prison systems would not change; but, the funding would be split and distributed to the counties. Thus, the counties would have the funds to keep the prisoners in prison if they so chose; or, they could take those funds and use them for a different purpose while allowing the prisoner to be paroled.
 
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govols/cc said:
How about more capital punishment done on a fast track.
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You see to trust the government a lot more than I ever would.

But to pretend the issue with overcrowding is due to the long process of capital punishment is simply absurd. That's a very small percentage of our prison population
 
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#21
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Vol8188 said:
You see to trust the government a lot more than I ever would.

But to pretend the issue with overcrowding is due to the long process of capital punishment is simply absurd. That's a very small percentage of our prison population
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So you push for more of a government you don't trust?
 
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therealUT said:
Nothing in this proposal calls for the elimination of the state prisons, just for the funding mechanism to change. For the prisoners that are currently sitting in state prisons, I would suggest that the counties that sent them there either pay the tab going forward or parole the individuals.

Remember, the current state budget for prisoner housing and prison systems would not change; but, the funding would be split and distributed to the counties. Thus, the counties would have the funds to keep the prisoners in prison if they so chose; or, they could take those funds and use them for a different purpose while allowing the prisoner to be paroled.
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Would they grandfather the current prisoners in and use state money for them, or have the counties take over after a set date?
 
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#24
Why should the counties be responsible for imprisonment? It's the state, not the county, that writes the criminal code the inmates are incarcerated under.
 
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#25
#25
Velo Vol said:
Why should the counties be responsible for imprisonment? It's the state, not the county, that writes the criminal code the inmates are incarcerated under.
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But it's the county police departments and judges who are sending people off in record numbers.
 
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