The Constitutional Case for Constitutionally Valid Secession

#1

therealUT

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#1
Article VII of the US Constitution reads, in part:

The Ratification of the Conventions of nine states, shall be sufficient for the Establishment of this Constitution between the States so ratifying the Same/

A large contingent of Americans, to include legal scholars, wrongly understand this to mean that the Constitution would be binding on all 13 states, so long as at least 9 ratified the Constitution. But, this is directly against the text. And, as Madison states in The Federalist, No. 43, "...no political relation can subsist between the assenting and dissenting states...", clearly articulating the proposition that the Constitution only binds those states who explicitly choose to adopt and ratify the Constitution.

But, if this is the case, why the requirement of nine states? The Constitution, so understood, looks to be no more than a league or a treaty, and leagues and treaties are often formed between no more than two states. We ought to recognize the nine states requirement as a measure of prudence and security. At the time, the inhabitants of the 13 states still faced large and looming threats from powerful foreign forces. Nine states could be thought sufficient to repel an invasion from overseas; nine out of 13 could be thought sufficient to repel possible attacks from those states who did not submit. So, nine was the number, and if nine were not found, then the Constitution would return to the drawing board.

How does this pertain to secession, however? Once a state has ratified the Constitution, ought we think it is forever bound to the Constitution, without regard to Constitutional changes and amendments?

Article V of the Constitution enumerates the amendment process: 3/4 of the states must ratify amendments for the amendments to become a part of the Constitution. What of the other 1/4, though? Unfortunately, unlike Article VII, Article V tells us nothing of how to deal with the states that do not explicitly ratify the proposed amendments. That said, though, if we understand the reasoning behind the enunciation of Article VII, we ought to apply it to Article V. After all, amendments to the Constitution supply us with a Constitution which, in toto, has not been not necessarily been ratified by each state. We ought to see the 3/4 requirement as, again, a requirement of security and prudence, and not as some collective authoritarianism dictate of the kind, "Look, everyone else has assented, so we are forcing your assent".

That being the case, for each amendment proposed and ratified, each state that dissents has a Constitutionally valid justification for seceding from the Union; i.e., the Union has no justification for intervening to retain the state in the Union. Further, there is no Constitutional argument for implied consent among the states. There is no time in which a state which remains a part of the Union yet that refused to ratify a proposal that is now an amendment can be said to have ratified and assented to the amendment simply because said state hung around and remained in the Union. Thus, at any point in time after an amendment has been ratified, a state that dissented has Constitutional permission to leave the Union, and the Federal Government has no Constitutional authority to challenge such actions taken by the seceding state.

The implications of this understanding loom large. Insofar as ratified amendments are not ratified unanimously, every proposal of a new amendment takes on a greater risk of the dissolution of the United States. Suppose 49 Amendments have been ratified, each with a different state dissenting (49 Amendments, 49 dissents, 1 dissent for 1 state, 1 state, say Kansas, excluded). Now suppose a new amendment is proposed and all Kansas is the only state to dissent. Not only can Kansas secede, a secession whose permission is Constitutionally valid, but so can all other 49 states. The only method available to the federal government to stop such secession would be the immediate repeal of the contentious amendments (thus, returning to Constitutions to which each of the states has explicitly agreed and assented).

Note: states that voluntarily join the Union assent to the Constitution and all of its amendments, at that time, in toto.
 
#2
#2
Basically, the following states have the right to secede based on the 17th Amendment:

Utah
Delaware
Florida
Georgia
Kentucky
Mississippi
Rhode Island
South Carolina
Virginia

Based on the 16th (and not included in the list re: 17th):
Connecticut
Pennsylvania
 
#3
#3
big_story_rect4.jpg


The Civil War is over.
 
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#8
#8
Here's the thing though TRUT, you assume the Union is a valid and binding contract of sorts. It is, but it is not. So when you say a State has the "right" to secede, you say "in accordance with the Constitutional provisions, the following States have the right to secede." However, if one State feels like they are no longer bound to follow the federal government and wants to dissolve their association with the Federal government, they have every right to do so if it's in the best interests of the People. The ramifications of same are probably going to be a bit harsh (Federal interdiction) but the individual States have every right to remove themselves from the Union if they choose.

Jefferson made comments to the nature that the laws of necessity of saving the State was of higher importance. Which could imply if a State feels it necessary to remove itself from the Union as a form of self preservation, it has the obligation (right) to do so.
 
#9
#9
You can tell when someone has underdeveloped sense of inductive and deductive reasoning...

As I'm still waiting on your inductively and deductively reasoned response to the foreseeability post I made yesterday.
 
#14
#14
I don't care about any of the politics or the philosophy. The only people in our country, who I would allow to say "Enough is enough" and secede is Native Americans. They earned the right.

If any state or other enclave decided the same, I'd fight against them. As you can tell, I'm not the biggest "state's rights" guy in the world. All it's doing is just replacing one form of oppression with another.

Plus, I'm an American foremost. And I wish we had taken Canada and Greenland.

That is all.
 
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#15
#15
I don't care about any of the politics or the philosophy. The only people in our country, who I would allow to say "Enough is enough" and secede is Native Americans. They earned the right.

If any state or other enclave decided the same, I'd fight against them. As you can tell, I'm not the biggest "state's rights" guy in the world. All it's doing is just replacing one form of oppression with another.

Plus, I'm an American foremost. And I wish we had taken Canada and Greenland.

That is all.

I agree, since I was born here I appreciate your support.
 
#17
#17
Reversing the idea a bit, since each new Amendment is an addition to the Constitution, doesn't that mean anytime a state DOES vote for a new Amendment they are agreeing to the Constitution as a whole, including previous Amendments they didn't agree to?

Put another way. If the states accepts the new change (Amendment) to the 'old' Constitution, and that 'old' Constitution has Amendments that state doesn't like, then to accept the new Amendment they would have to accept the old Constitution and any Amendments.

put even more simply. By accepting the new you are accepting the old "new" as well, because once accepted its all one big document.

just my thoughts, not firm beliefs just an interesting thought sparked by the OP
 
#18
#18
Reversing the idea a bit, since each new Amendment is an addition to the Constitution, doesn't that mean anytime a state DOES vote for a new Amendment they are agreeing to the Constitution as a whole, including previous Amendments they didn't agree to?

Put another way. If the states accepts the new change (Amendment) to the 'old' Constitution, and that 'old' Constitution has Amendments that state doesn't like, then to accept the new Amendment they would have to accept the old Constitution and any Amendments.

put even more simply. By accepting the new you are accepting the old "new" as well, because once accepted its all one big document.

just my thoughts, not firm beliefs just an interesting thought sparked by the OP


OP is saying that every time an amendment is proposed and voted upon, any given State (or States) could use that as an opportunity to bail. It is an idea popularized by religious right wingers and the wealthy who don't like the country's changing demographics, or the threat they perceive from that to the traditional hierarchy of our economic stratification.


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secession.gif
 
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#20
#20
Ironic since California and Texas are also being targeted by radical Hispanic groups to separate and become new Hispanic nations, or return to Mexico.

It's almost like some people want to be poor and ****ty forever.
 
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#21
#21
It's almost like some people want to be poor and ****ty forever.

So tell me states (I'm using the term loosely, as in nation-states) can have the right to peaceful & democratic self-determination of there political futures, than why can't American states in the future? If, at some point in the future, a state's collective population wishes no longer be apart of this union and votes in a referendum on independence why should we expend the resources to keep them in a union they no longer wish to be in?
 
#24
#24
So tell me states (I'm using the term loosely, as in nation-states) can have the right to peaceful & democratic self-determination of there political futures, than why can't American states in the future? If, at some point in the future, a state's collective population wishes no longer be apart of this union and votes in a referendum on independence why should we expend the resources to keep them in a union they no longer wish to be in?

Quebec tries this from time to time. The problem is that a separate Quebec also wants to benefit from the social welfare spending of the rest of Canada without contributing anything to the system.

I know that's Canada. But how would a state like Kansas, completely landlocked, engage in international trade? Not just with Oklahoma, but with Japan, Germany, and so on?

The point being is that a seceded state is still going to be dependent, in some way, on the United States. Possible exceptions would be states like California, Texas and Florida.
 

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