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About this Page -- This is a discussion on Off Shore Banks Indicted Page 2. within the forum Politics. Originally Posted by rjd970 The progressive system has been in place under both parties. The dems may take it further ...

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Old 12-20-2012, 01:31 PM   #16 (permalink)
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The progressive system has been in place under both parties. The dems may take it further with their ideology, but it will always be a political reality with both parties, unfortunately.
why? It's only a political reality in a world where taxing other people means buying votes.
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:33 PM   #17 (permalink)
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why? It's only a political reality in a world where taxing other people means buying votes.
Exactly.
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:36 PM   #18 (permalink)
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You're arguing just to argue. It is now, and unless significant political change occurs, it will more than likely stay this way for awhile.

I suspect it will take more people paying into the system for such change to happen.
On the contrary, I am not arguing simply to argue. I truly believe that the progressive tax, at the Federal level, will be discarded within the next twenty years (five major election cycles).

It does not take more individuals paying into the system for the change to happen; on the contrary, as jobs continue to be scarce, as incentives for production continue to be penalized, the electorate and the government will continue to face an economic crisis. I think that the momentum is building and will continue to build for a massive paradigm shift in distributive justice; I think that the most extreme forms of egalitarianism have already and unsuccessfully run their course (socialist states), and I think that even more modest forms of egalitarianism (redistribution, progressive taxes, welfare, etc.) will give way to sufficientarian distributive justice models.

Contemporary political philosophy is already moving in that direction, contemporary economists are discarding Keynesian models and working with neo-classical models, and much of the younger generation (35 and younger) in American has very strong libertarian leanings.

I would not be so pessimistic with regard to the possibility that the progressive income tax is out of gas.
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:38 PM   #19 (permalink)
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On the contrary, I am not arguing simply to argue. I truly believe that the progressive tax, at the Federal level, will be discarded within the next twenty years (five major election cycles).

It does not take more individuals paying into the system for the change to happen; on the contrary, as jobs continue to be scarce, as incentives for production continue to be penalized, the electorate and the government will continue to face an economic crisis. I think that the momentum is building and will continue to build for a massive paradigm shift in distributive justice; I think that the most extreme forms of egalitarianism have already and unsuccessfully run their course (socialist states), and I think that even more modest forms of egalitarianism (redistribution, progressive taxes, welfare, etc.) will give way to sufficientarian distributive justice models.

Contemporary political philosophy is already moving in that direction, contemporary economists are discarding Keynesian models and working with neo-classical models, and much of the younger generation (35 and younger) in American has very strong libertarian leanings.

I would not be so pessimistic with regard to the possibility that the progressive income tax is out of gas.
What can I say, modern political discourse has made me a cynic. I have little faith in your utopian view, as much as I would love it to be true.
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:47 PM   #20 (permalink)
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On the contrary, I am not arguing simply to argue. I truly believe that the progressive tax, at the Federal level, will be discarded within the next twenty years (five major election cycles).

It does not take more individuals paying into the system for the change to happen; on the contrary, as jobs continue to be scarce, as incentives for production continue to be penalized, the electorate and the government will continue to face an economic crisis. I think that the momentum is building and will continue to build for a massive paradigm shift in distributive justice; I think that the most extreme forms of egalitarianism have already and unsuccessfully run their course (socialist states), and I think that even more modest forms of egalitarianism (redistribution, progressive taxes, welfare, etc.) will give way to sufficientarian distributive justice models.

Contemporary political philosophy is already moving in that direction, contemporary economists are discarding Keynesian models and working with neo-classical models, and much of the younger generation (35 and younger) in American has very strong libertarian leanings.

I would not be so pessimistic with regard to the possibility that the progressive income tax is out of gas.
I tend to agree with just about everything in your post in some way.
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:31 PM   #21 (permalink)
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how does a comment like "it is not right" square with your first sentence? Help a brother out here. It being "our system" likely means it isn't right at this point. Exacerbating the problem doesn't help.
I do not think a progressive tax system is fair, thus it is not right. I think we need to change to some type of fair or flat tax with one rate on all income over the poverty level. That way everyone is equal in the per cent being paid.
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:50 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Ok. You're going to have to tell me what you meant by your post.
a progressive tax system is not saving the rich. it is costing the rich.

saving the rich is just a line the dems use to say the GOP is the party of the rich because the GOP has fought to not increase the rates only on the rich. of course that had changed now and both sides are calling for higher taxes on the wealthy.
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Old 12-20-2012, 05:04 PM   #23 (permalink)
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On the contrary, I am not arguing simply to argue. I truly believe that the progressive tax, at the Federal level, will be discarded within the next twenty years (five major election cycles).

It does not take more individuals paying into the system for the change to happen; on the contrary, as jobs continue to be scarce, as incentives for production continue to be penalized, the electorate and the government will continue to face an economic crisis. I think that the momentum is building and will continue to build for a massive paradigm shift in distributive justice; I think that the most extreme forms of egalitarianism have already and unsuccessfully run their course (socialist states), and I think that even more modest forms of egalitarianism (redistribution, progressive taxes, welfare, etc.) will give way to sufficientarian distributive justice models.

Contemporary political philosophy is already moving in that direction, contemporary economists are discarding Keynesian models and working with neo-classical models, and much of the younger generation (35 and younger) in American has very strong libertarian leanings.

I would not be so pessimistic with regard to the possibility that the progressive income tax is out of gas.
Will not happen without bloodshed and a severe overcorrection first.
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Old 12-20-2012, 05:17 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Will not happen without bloodshed and a severe overcorrection first.
The same sentiment was expressed in 1950 concerning civil/equal rights for blacks and women. Four years later there was a ground breaking SCOTUS case and fifteen years later there was ground breaking legislation. Was there some bloodshed? Yes, but the blood that was shed was the blood of the protesters, not the blood of the agents of the state.

I am not saying that bloodshed will not happen; I am stating that it is not necessary for rapid and paradigm shifting change in America.
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Old 12-20-2012, 07:00 PM   #25 (permalink)
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The same sentiment was expressed in 1950 concerning civil/equal rights for blacks and women. Four years later there was a ground breaking SCOTUS case and fifteen years later there was ground breaking legislation. Was there some bloodshed? Yes, but the blood that was shed was the blood of the protesters, not the blood of the agents of the state.

I am not saying that bloodshed will not happen; I am stating that it is not necessary for rapid and paradigm shifting change in America.
Today's US is almost 180 degrees from 1950 US. We are no longer a collective America but rather a bunch of special interest groups nor do we have the will to make hard decisions.
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Old 12-20-2012, 07:11 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Three Swiss bankers accused of conspiring with American clients to hide more than $420 million from the tax-collecting U.S. Internal Revenue Service were indicted, the U.S. Attorney's Office in Manhattan said on Wednesday.

The indictment named Stephan Fellmann, Otto Huppi and Christof Reist, all former client advisers with an unnamed Swiss bank. None of the bankers have been arrested, authorities said.
I assume that the bankers are still in Switzerland. But here is my question. Some of you clowns seem to think that we still live in the land of the free/home of the brave, yet why is our gov't chasing down cash all over the world and going so far as to indict non-US citizens for practicing baking rules that are perfectly legal in their sovereign home country (in this case Switzerland)?

You all feel comfortable with your gov't going into other countries and essentially regulating the banking industry of other countries when we can't even get our own banking system (see Federal Reserve) regulated/audited???
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Old 12-20-2012, 07:43 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Today's US is almost 180 degrees from 1950 US. We are no longer a collective America but rather a bunch of special interest groups nor do we have the will to make hard decisions.
I am on my mobile, so my response must be brief. If you are trying to insinuate that the collective will in America in the fifties was more cohesive, or materially more cohesive, than it is today, then I must categorically disagree.
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Old 12-21-2012, 05:45 AM   #28 (permalink)
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On the contrary, I am not arguing simply to argue. I truly believe that the progressive tax, at the Federal level, will be discarded within the next twenty years (five major election cycles).

It does not take more individuals paying into the system for the change to happen; on the contrary, as jobs continue to be scarce, as incentives for production continue to be penalized, the electorate and the government will continue to face an economic crisis. I think that the momentum is building and will continue to build for a massive paradigm shift in distributive justice; I think that the most extreme forms of egalitarianism have already and unsuccessfully run their course (socialist states), and I think that even more modest forms of egalitarianism (redistribution, progressive taxes, welfare, etc.) will give way to sufficientarian distributive justice models.

Contemporary political philosophy is already moving in that direction, contemporary economists are discarding Keynesian models and working with neo-classical models, and much of the younger generation (35 and younger) in American has very strong libertarian leanings.

I would not be so pessimistic with regard to the possibility that the progressive income tax is out of gas.
Depends on when the GOP dies and from the ashes the libertarian party arises. Yes those of us around the 35 and under crowd are very libertarian, but the GOP's social conservatism is a huge turn off for them at this point.
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Old 12-21-2012, 04:13 PM   #29 (permalink)
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a progressive tax system is not saving the rich. it is costing the rich.

saving the rich is just a line the dems use to say the GOP is the party of the rich because the GOP has fought to not increase the rates only on the rich. of course that had changed now and both sides are calling for higher taxes on the wealthy.
Ok. I just got crossways on how I interpreted that post.

To be honest, the GOP doesn't have much choice from a political standpoint. I wish they would have the balls to raise taxes on everyone or go off the cliff (which would do the same thing). It would serve this country right.
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Old 12-21-2012, 04:17 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Depends on when the GOP dies and from the ashes the libertarian party arises. Yes those of us around the 35 and under crowd are very libertarian, but the GOP's social conservatism is a huge turn off for them at this point.
I think the GOP will become the Libertarian Party.
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