Obama/Clinton state dept designates Israel as terrorist sponsor.

[gsvol]

U.S. STATE DEPT. DESIGNATES ISRAEL AS COUNTRY THAT PROMOTES/PROTECTS TERRORISTS! Yet North Korea Taken Off List

...the Obama administration’s State Department has
quietly placed Israel on a list of countries that
“promote, produce, or protect terrorists”.
-------------------

From the moment this President entered office, he
has been pandering to the Islamic world, pretending
that Al Qaeda is the only terrorist organization.

In reality, despite internal ethnic rivalries, all Islamic
terrorist organizations are in cahoots in fighting what
they call ‘The Big Satan’ (The U.S.) and ‘The Little
Satan’ (Israel). The sad reality is that Israel has been
waging the fight against Islamic terrorism against all
odds for many years now and often all alone.

With this latest stab in the back, Obama is continuing
a worrying pattern of calling America’s enemies friends
and America’s friends enemies.”

U.S. Designates Israel as Country That Tends ?To Promote, Produce, or Protect? Terrorists; Also Calls Israel Anti-Terror Partner | CNSnews.com

... the Obama administration is currently listing Israel
among 36 “specially designated countries” it
believes “have shown a tendency to promote, produce,
or protect terrorist organizations or their members.”
---

The five countries on the list that do not have majority
Muslim populations--Kazakhstan (47 percent Muslim),
Eritrea (36.5 percent Muslim), Israel (16.9 percent
Muslim), the Philippines (5 percent Muslim) and Thailand
(4.6 percent)--have had internal problems with radical
Muslim terrorists, as reported by the State Department.

 

[lawgator1]

As usual, you do not know what you are talking about. The list has been in existence for seven years. It goes back to the Bush administration.

The "dropping" of North Korea and placement of Israel on the list is an utter lie. They are two different lists.

You constant tirade against Obama as some sort of secret agent Muslim is nonsense and you are constantly made to look the fool you are.

 

[gsvol]

As usual, you do not know what you are talking about. The list has been in existence for seven years. It goes back to the Bush administration.

The "dropping" of North Korea and placement of Israel on the list is an utter lie. They are two different lists.

You constant tirade against Obama as some sort of secret agent Muslim is nonsense and you are constantly made to look the fool you are.

So you think israel should be on the list.

I'm not sure NK was ever a sponsor of international terrorism, although they have a history of initiating special ops attacks against South Korea, including submarine attacks.

You should be an authority on fools.

Obama was raised a muslim and here are some his statements, many of which were made in his first televised speech after becomeing president, so tell me it is nonsense again.

“Islam has a proud tradition of tolerance.”
Barack Hussein Obama

“it is important for Western countries to avoid impeding Muslim citizens from practicing religion as they see fit”
Barack Hussein Obama

“We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the better, including my own country.”
Barack Hussein Obama

“The contribution of Muslims to the United States are too long to catalog because Muslims are so interwoven into the fabric of our communities and our country”
Barack Hussein Obama

“I have lived in a Muslim-majority country... I know, because I am one of them.”
Barack Hussein Obama

“As a student of history, I also know civilization’s debt to Islam.”
Barack Hussein Obama

“Islam has demonstrated through words and deeds the possibilities of religious tolerance and racial equality.”
Barack Hussein Obama

“And since our founding, American Muslims have enriched the United States.”
Barack Hussein Obama

“And I consider it part of my responsibility as President of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam wherever they appear.”
Barack Hussein Obama

“Moreover, freedom in America is indivisible from the freedom to practice one’s religion. That is why there is a mosque in every state of our union, and over 1,200 mosques within our borders. That is why the U.S. government has gone to court to protect the right of women and girls to wear the hijab, and to punish those who would deny it.”
Barack Hussein Obama

“We are not nor have we even been at war with Islam”
Barack Hussein Obama

Some of my questions:

How have moslems ever enriched the USA?

What debt does civilization owe islam?

What contribution of any moslem has been made to America?

What in the history has islam done to shape the world for the better, especially the USA?

When was the era of proud islamic tolerance.

 

[JayVols]

I would say NK's big crime in this matter is selling arms to terrorists.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[lawgator1]

So you think israel should be on the list.

I personally have no clue who should be on the list and who should not. And neither do you. And neither does the jackarse promoting this "story." That is a matter for the intelligence community to decide.

More important, your thread title says the Obama administration put them on there.

That is not established, at all, as the list began in the Bush administration.

The claim that Israel was "added" and North Korea "dropped," if you read the articles on this, is a painfully obvious bait and switch between two different lists.

The "story" is blatantly and demonstrably false, and we are all a little bit dumber for your having posted such garbage here.

 

[gsvol]

I personally have no clue who should be on the list and who should not. And neither do you. And neither does the jackarse promoting this "story." That is a matter for the intelligence community to decide.

Hilary Clinton as head of the State Department made
the call, did she not??

U.S Ignores Hillary Clinton's Powerful Aide Huma Abedin at Its Own Risk - HUMAN EVENTS

Each example serves as another case in point. What makes us think that the State Department would update its virus protection program? Even more disconcerting than Mohamed and Balawi is Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s aide and Deputy Chief of Staff Huma Abedin, who has been with Clinton since 1996. She was never properly screened, .....
---------------------------------

To be concerned about Abedin’s access to sensitive
information is an issue that will most likely garner
unsolicited curses from "sensitive" Americans who are
enamored with her. These same people ignore this
diva’s familial ties to the Muslim Brotherhood. Lt. Col.
Robert Anderson's detailed reports aimed at getting
Army intelligence to investigate Ali Mohamed—and have
him court-martialed—were also ignored.

Abedin is even more potentially dangerous: She can
leak state secrets. She is closely associated with her
Muslim Brotherhood family and even joined Clinton at an
event with her mother, Saleha Abedin, at Dar El-Hekma
College in Saudi Arabia. Also present was a close
associate of Saleha Abedin—Suheir Qureshi. Qureshi's
name later appeared in several prominent Arab
newspapers when it was revealed that she belonged to
a list of 63 members of the secret arm of the Muslim
Brotherhood called The Sisterhood. The full list was
later revealed—Huma Abedin’s mother is on it. Huma's
brother—Hassan Abedin—also collaborates with Omar
Naseef and Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, two of the most
influential terror supporters in the world.
------------------------------------------

And while this "Goebbels" runs his propaganda machine,
the naysayers demand evidence of Huma Abedin’s
membership in this notorious group. Would someone
have appointed the daughter of Magda and Joseph
Goebbels as the deputy chief of staff for Cordell Hull—
the U.S. secretary of state during World War II—arguing
that she was not a member of the Nazi party?

It is not “racist” to compare the Muslim Brotherhood
with the Nazis. Hassan Al-Banna, the grandfather of
Tariq Ramadan (Ramadan's ban from the U.S. was lifted
by CLinton), collaborated with Hitler henchman Haj Amin
al-Husseini, who became the Muslim Brotherhood leader
after the war. Neither has the Brotherhood repented.
They still take pride in their collaboration with the Nazis.

More important, your thread title says the Obama administration put them on there.

That is not established, at all, as the list began in the Bush administration.

Bush took NK off the list but Obama added Israel, is
that not a fact??

And if Bush was wrong, does that make Obama right?

The "story" is blatantly and demonstrably false, and we are all a little bit dumber for your having posted such garbage here.

OK demonstrate the falsity!!

Now you're dumber and you blame it on me??

I didn't know could possibly ever achieve a new level
of dumbness. :loco:

"I summon my blue-eyed slaves anytime it pleases
me. I command the Americans to send me their
bravest soldiers to die for me. Anytime I clap my
hands a stupid genie called the American ambassador
appears to do my bidding. When the Americans die in
my service their bodies are frozen in metal boxes by
the US Embassy and American airplanes carry them
away, as if they never existed. Truly, America is my favorite slave."

King Fahd Bin Abdul-Aziz, Jeddeh 1993

Wahhabis in America :: Center for Islamic Pluralism

Wahhabi-Saudi lobbying is nothing if not bold.
In 1999, Saudi "relief agencies" were on the
scene in Kosovo within a month of the end of
the NATO intervention, showering money for
Wahhabi indoctrination. The Saudi embassy in
Washington proudly declared, on that occasion,
that a goal of the effort was "promoting Islamic
curricula as a mandatory component in Kosovo
schools." But while Kosovar Albanians are Muslims
in their majority, they include a significant
Catholic minority, especially prominent in
intellectual life.
--------------------------

The Saudis also use their control over the city of
Mecca--destination of the hajj pilgrimage that is
one of the five pillars of Islam, obligatory for all
who can afford it--as an opportunity for political
shenanigans. In their hands, the hajj frequently
becomes a paid junket useful for recruitment
purposes.

In 2000, the Muslim World League (much overdue
for a full investigation into its funding of Osama bin
Laden, but omitted from the president's list of groups
whose funds have been frozen) hosted 100 prominent
American Islamic personalities on hajj. They were
accompanied by a delegation of 60 Latin American
"academics and specialists." All expenses for the latter
were paid by Prince Bandar Ibn Sultan Ibn Abdul Aziz,
Saudi ambassador to the United States.

Last year the Saudis advertised their subsidy of 1,500
pilgrims from Europe, Asia, Africa, and North America.
In 1999, the Saudis paid for 100 influential American
Muslims to "make hajj." The list of such expenditures
seems limitless.

Obama's "Christian" grandmother in Mecca for Hajj - Jihad Watch

Mecca, 25 Nov. (AKI) - The grandmother of US
president Barack Obama has arrived in Saudi Arabia
for the 'Hajj' or Islamic pilgrimage to the holy cities of
Mecca and Medina, a Saudi daily said on Wednesday.

Sarah Obama, 87, is being accompanied by a nephew
and Obama's cousin, Omran.

On Wednesday Sarah Obama was in the valley of Mina
with an African delegation, according to the Saudi daily
Okaz.

Obama, the mother of the American president's father,
lives in a village in Kenya and is one of the many guests
of Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz al-Saud....

Actually in Kosovo, prior to the Clinton assisted
moslem takeover, there was a significant jewish presence in academia also.

 

[gsvol]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch house:

Articles: Jewish University Presidents Who Abandon Jews

In March 2010, Felber was violently assaulted by
Husam Zakharia, the leader of Students for Justice
in Palestine, as she peacefully held her sign at a
pro-Israel event. UC authorities "were fully aware
that Zakharia, the SJP and similar student groups
had been involved in other incidents on campus to
incite violence against and intimidate Jewish and
other students," says her renowned lawyer, Neal
Sher. Nevertheless, "defendants took no reasonable
steps to protect Ms. Felber and others."

Felber names UC President Mark Yudof in her lawsuit
and therein lies a tale. Yudof took office in 2008
amidst a blaze of schmaltzy headlines like, "New University President Keeps Kosher, Loves Israel."
Yudof boasted about his wife, Judy, the first woman
to serve as international president of the United
Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, and proclaimed,
"I am a very strong advocate of Israel."

Well, if you say so, sir. If by "very strong advocate
of Israel," you mean using your powers as UC President
to ignore 63 faculty members who wrote you, "We,
faculty at the University of California-Irvine, are
deeply disturbed about activities on campus that f
oment hatred against Jews and Israelis... Some
community members, students, and faculty indeed
feel intimidated, and at times even unsafe."
-------------------------------

Most shamefully, he writes large checks to and
bestows gushing awards upon the Olive Tree Initiative,
a Jewish-funded "constructive dialogue" group that
shleps Jewish UC students to Israel. Once in the Holy
Land, these well-meaning young Jews are hectored
by anti-Israel propagandists, and, for the coup de
grâce of chutzpah, escorted to meet with Hamas
terrorists newly sprung from Israeli prison. Naturally,
the students are sworn to secrecy and instructed
how to hide their Hamas pow-wow from authorities.

Bonus outrage: the meetings take place on Rosh
HaShonah!

 

[Jewbaccah]

No idea what is happenning ITT. It is simple Jew good Muslim bad. Let's move on.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[gsvol]

No idea what is happenning ITT. It is simple Jew good Muslim bad. Let's move on.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

My post #7 might bring such simplicity into question.

Moving right along:

NoisyRoom.net Blog Archive Vetting Obama ? ?Palling Around With Terrorists?

Lots of information in the link above, well
worth reading.

 

[gsvol]

What if the hokey pokey really IS what it's all about?

In case my link in post #9 doesn't work, anexcerpt:

“Palling around with terrorists,” a phrase made famous
by Governor Sarah Palin during the 2008 Presidential
Campaign, has just risen to new heights in its accuracy
with regard to Obama.

Palin Criticizes Obama’s ‘Terrorist’ Connection

YouTube - ‪Palin Criticizes Obama's 'Terrorist' Connection‬‏

Obama and Hillary Clinton are reaching out to the
Muslim Brotherhood, a radical Islamic fundamentalist
group committed to the destruction of America, Britain
and Israel and identified as a terrorist organization by
the U.S. The Muslim Brotherhood creed:

“Allah is our objective,
the prophet is our leader,
the Koran is our law,
Jihad is our way,
dying in the way of Allah i
s our highest hope.”

“Jihad is our way” explicitly endorses the
reinstatement of a worldwide Islamic regime.

Obama puts Israel on a list of countries that support
terrorism while he supports the Hamas-ruled
region of Gaza.

Obama began talks with the Taliban to negotiate
with these terrorists.

Obama entertains despotic dictators in our White House.

Obama rolled out the red carpet for one of the worst
dictators – Gabon, Africa’s President Ali Bongo Ondimba.

Human events reports that even the mainstream media
noted the oddity of Obama’s June 9th welcome of
this “unsavory despot.” “The family that has ruled the
African nation of Gabon for decades has been accused
of taking bribes, stealing hundreds of millions of dollars
and presiding over a system rife with corruption, but
that hasn’t stopped President Obama from
inviting President Ali Bongo of Gabon to the
White House Thursday, said ABC’s Brian Ross.”

Obama and Hillary Clinton now refer to the Syrian
dictator, Bashar Assad, as a “reformer” while he
continues his bloody rampage in Syria, ordering the
slaughter of hundreds, if not thousands of Syrian
protesters.

Obama supported the riots in Egypt which toppled
any semblance of stability in the Middle East in order
to usher in the formerly exiled Muslim Brotherhood
members who will undoubtedly take power in Egypt…
along with taking power over the advanced weaponry
and military might that lies in waiting in Egypt.

Obama violated U.S. law by continuing the war in
Libya in order to enact the “Responsibility to Protect
Doctrine” which can eventually be used to justify an
attack on America.

Under the guise of a “humanitarian effort,” Obama is
dropping bombs and supporting the murder of hundreds
of civilians in Libya, with absolutely no U.S. interests
at stake, in order to set a precedence which will permit
the United Nations (UN) to take military action against
any country they deem responsible for violating their
loosely defined “humanitarian” rights. The UN’s sights
are already on America, the UK and Israel and, as you’ll
see in this video, the UN Chief applauds as America and
her former (Pre-Obama) allies are classified as the real
terrorist nations.

Don’t forget that Iran is now backed by Russia and
China – along with the military capabilities of both of
those communist regimes. (Yes, Russia is still controlled
by the communists).

Tehran hosts International Conference on Global Fight
Against Terrorism

YouTube - ‪Tehran hosts International Conference on Global Fight Against Terrorism‬‏

Obama criticizes Columbia while the Columbian
government is fighting drug-smuggling Marxist guerrillas
who are supported by Hugo Chavez. However, speaking
of Venezuela’s Chavez, another unsavory despot, when
Obama met him in 2009, few will forget the exchange of
warm smiles, the power hand-shake and Obama’s
acceptance of the America-bashing book Chavez gave
him.

Obama showed his opposition to America when the
majority of 9/11 families, New Yorkers and the American
people were against the Ground Zero Mosque, but
Obama endorsed and condoned its construction
overlooking sacred ground where the World Trade
Center towers once stood.

Obama gave $2 billion to Dilma Rousseff, President of
Brazil – a former Marxist-Leninist urban terrorist –
when he traveled to Brazil to visit her. While handing
over American taxpayer dollars to Brazil, Obama has
promised Dilma Rousseff that the U.S. will be their best
customer… as Obama’s other pal and White House
visitor, George Soros, invests in Brazil’s state-controlled
Petrobras oil company and increases his holdings this
year.

Obama gave the President of Mexico, Felipe Calderon,
a platform in Congress to bash America for our
immigration laws regarding those who cross our borders
illegally. Obama also sued Arizona for trying to secure
their border to protect Americans, and he’s aiding and
abetting legal action against Arizona brought forth by
other countries – yep, other countries. Obama also
reported the U.S. to the UN Council for Human Rights
Abuses because of Arizona’s SB 1070 legislation.

No U.S. president in the history of our nation
has ever done such a disgraceful and seditious
thing to any state in our nation.

By the way, take note that in an interview during
Calderon’s visit to the U.S., he said that Mexico
deports anyone entering their country illegally.
Here’s a taste of Mexico’s laws on this subject:

MEXICO IMMIGRATION LAWS by Mark Levin

YouTube - ‪MEXICO IMMIGRATION LAWS by Mark Levin‬‏

Obama’s new pals – the ones he’s formed alliances
with in the past 2 ½ years – speak volumes.

If you thought the pals we learned about during the
last Presidential Campaign were bad, Obama has proven
his ability to bring “palling around with terrorists” to a
whole new level.

Back in 2008, it was domestic terrorists, racists,
America-haters, anti-Semites, Marxists, Communists,
Socialists, criminals, community agitators, thugs, radical
far-left union leaders and Soros-funded organizations.

Since becoming President, Obama has alienated
America’s closest allies and is in bed with the barbaric
dictators and despots who hate America and are working
vigilantly to overtly and covertly destroy our country
and our way of life.

When Obama’s White House Press Secretary, James
Carney, recently said, “Here in the U.S., we do not
practice Guilt by Association,” it made me laugh to
think that the Obama administration still believes the
American people are asleep; that we’re actually dumb
enough to accept their suppositions as fact –
regardless of how outrageously false it is.

To give an elected official a pass because “we do not
practice Guilt by Association” here in the U.S. is like
saying Nixon didn’t do anything wrong; the Watergate
break-in may have been conducted by people with
whom Nixon associated, but since we don’t practice
Guilt by Association in the U.S., Nixon had clean hands.

Vetting Obama now that he’s started his 2012
Presidential Campaign is crucial and because the
lame-stream government-controlled media won’t do it,
we’re going to do it. Palling around with terrorists and
despots is something Americans need to know.

Spread the word.

"A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves."
Edward R. Murrow

 

[KiffinKiller]

Dead horse beaten. check.

 

[gsvol]

Dead horse beaten. check.

If you are referring to Israel, that horse isn't dead yet.

One of the outcomes of the Obama/Clinton policy
along with the aid of community organizers such as
Obama pal William Ayers and code pinko in the MB
takeover of Egypt is that now they are allowing
Iranian warships through the Suez canal in order
for them to deliver arms to Syria which are being
transferred to hezbollah as they prepare for yet
another attack on the nation of Israel.

BTW, hezbollah is now active in Mexico, working
with drug cartels and human tafficers, bringing
their agents into the USA.

 

[n_huffhines]

I would say NK's big crime in this matter is selling arms to terrorists.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

Fast and Furious?

 

[Chris4Vols22]

How have moslems ever enriched the USA?

What debt does civilization owe islam?

What contribution of any moslem has been made to America?

What in the history has islam done to shape the world for the better, especially the USA?

When was the era of proud islamic tolerance.

You've obviously never studied Islam.

 

[n_huffhines]

Some of my questions:

How have moslems ever enriched the USA?

What debt does civilization owe islam?

What contribution of any moslem has been made to America?

What in the history has islam done to shape the world for the better, especially the USA?

When was the era of proud islamic tolerance.

Muhammad Yunus is one of my favorite people in the world. Through micro-financing he's revolutionized how individuals can successfully fight global poverty (and he taught at MTSU).

Muhammad Yunus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[VolInMn]

Muhammad Yunus is one of my favorite people in the world. Through micro-financing he's revolutionized how individuals can successfully fight global poverty (and he taught at MTSU).

Was this before or after he defecated on GS's lawn, killed his puppy, slashed his tires and messed up his TeeVee box so's he can't get Fox News and Matlock anymore?

 

[therealUT]

Muhammad Yunus is one of my favorite people in the world. Through micro-financing he's revolutionized how individuals can successfully fight global poverty (and he taught at MTSU).

Muhammad Yunus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The original concept of MF was outstanding; the corrupted application through the Grameen Bank and various for-profit MFIs have ruined his dream. Persons, mostly women in Self-Help-Groups (SHGs) routinely take out loans with 35-50% interest, then reborrow to cover their previous loan payments.

The Deccan Chronicle spent all of last fall publishing startling and brilliant exposès on the MFI crisis in Southern India, and the related crises throughout India, SE Asia, Africa, and South America. Personally, I witnessed the destruction these loans have wrought on impoverished Indians, the cause of many suicides right now on the Deccan Plateau.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[n_huffhines]

The original concept of MF was outstanding; the corrupted application through the Grameen Bank and various for-profit MFIs have ruined his dream. Persons, mostly women in Self-Help-Groups (SHGs) routinely take out loans with 35-50% interest, then reborrow to cover their previous loan payments.

The Deccan Chronicle spent all of last fall publishing startling and brilliant exposès on the MFI crisis in Southern India, and the related crises throughout India, SE Asia, Africa, and South America. Personally, I witnessed the destruction these loans have wrought on impoverished Indians, the cause of many suicides right now on the Deccan Plateau.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

It's very unfortunate. There are plenty of reputable micro-finance "charities" you can team up with. They have low interest rates and you get to choose the person you lend to. Once they pay you back (and you've changed their lives) you can use the same money and choose somebody else. Some of these groups have like a 2% default rate.

 

[therealUT]

It's very unfortunate. There are plenty of reputable micro-finance "charities" you can team up with. They have low interest rates and you get to choose the person you lend to. Once they pay you back (and you've changed their lives) you can use the same money and choose somebody else. Some of these groups have like a 2% default rate.

Personally, I have yet to see any private MFIs that offer micro-loans at less than 18%. The average for Kiva is over 28%, IIRC.

Yusef disassociated himself with Grameen and MF in disgust this past year.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[n_huffhines]

Personally, I have yet to see any private MFIs that offer micro-loans at less than 18%. The average for Kiva is over 28%, IIRC.

Yusef disassociated himself with Grameen and MF in disgust this past year.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

Maybe I was wrong about interest rates, but here I found a list of charities with low default rates (1-3%). FINCA Peru is the one that Natalie Portman pimps, I think.

Microfinance charities | GiveWell

 

[therealUT]

Maybe I was wrong about interest rates, but here I found a list of charities with low default rates (1-3%). FINCA Peru is the one that Natalie Portman pimps, I think.

Microfinance charities | GiveWell

The default rates are incredibly low, because it is so easy to reborrow from another MFI to pay off the first. It really is a case of a beautiful philanthropic idea gone horribly awry.

 

[therealUT]

FINCA Peru is the one that Natalie Portman pimps, I think.

Microfinance charities | GiveWell

Did you notice the APR on those loans?

84%; 51-61%; 156%!

That is neither charity nor philanthropy; it is loan-sharking, and it is absolutely horrendous!

 

[n_huffhines]

Did you notice the APR on those loans?

84%; 51-61%; 156%!

That is neither charity nor philanthropy; it is loan-sharking, and it is absolutely horrendous!

Yeah, that's high, and I'd like it to be lower (maybe once I'm independently wealthy I can recreate Yunus' dream).

Even still, 51% is worth it for a lot of people. When I first was exposed to this idea they used an example of a lady who was a vendor. She had to rent her equipment every day, and like 85% of her revenue went to rentals (it was something ridiculous like she would make $.90 and pay them $.77). This gives her the only possible chance to own her own equipment. Once she's paid off her loan, her income has heptupled.

 

[therealUT]

Yeah, that's high, and I'd like it to be lower (maybe once I'm independently wealthy I can recreate Yunus' dream).

Even still, 51% is worth it for a lot of people. When I first was exposed to this idea they used an example of a lady who was a vendor. She had to rent her equipment every day, and like 85% of her revenue went to rentals (it was something ridiculous like she would make $.90 and pay them $.77). This gives her the only possible chance to own her own equipment. Once she's paid off her loan, her income has heptupled.

51% does not help anyone. If you have to take out a loan for 3,000 rupees in June, and have to back back 4,500 rupees the next June, then you should just not take out the loan.

A substantial amount of these MFIs are also in bed with jewelry hawkers; the hawkers go into a village with expensive jewelry, tell the enchanted females and males that they will be back in a week or two. In the interim, the MFI comes in and offers loans.

Another substantial use of MFI loans in SS Africa, India, and SE Asia (I am not certain of S America) is on dowry. No income is generated for the family that is paying another man to take their daughter.

For every feel good story re: MF, I would be willing to bet there are at least twenty cases where the loans have simply overtaken the lives of impoverished persons as they hop from loan to loan and higher interest rate to higher interest rate.

Remember, Yunus's original idea was that MF would replace charity simply in order to instill a sense of ownership and fiscal responsibility for those receiving the loans. Originally, his idea was that these loans would have negligible interest rates (basically, would be micro-grants). There is absolutely nothing charitable about the MFI industry today (look at the stock of the few publicly traded MFIs...recession has not hurt them in the least).

 

[n_huffhines]

51% does not help anyone. If you have to take out a loan for 3,000 rupees in June, and have to back back 4,500 rupees the next June, then you should just not take out the loan.

A substantial amount of these MFIs are also in bed with jewelry hawkers; the hawkers go into a village with expensive jewelry, tell the enchanted females and males that they will be back in a week or two. In the interim, the MFI comes in and offers loans.

Another substantial use of MFI loans in SS Africa, India, and SE Asia (I am not certain of S America) is on dowry. No income is generated for the family that is paying another man to take their daughter.

For every feel good story re: MF, I would be willing to bet there are at least twenty cases where the loans have simply overtaken the lives of impoverished persons as they hop from loan to loan and higher interest rate to higher interest rate.

Remember, Yunus's original idea was that MF would replace charity simply in order to instill a sense of ownership and fiscal responsibility for those receiving the loans. Originally, his idea was that these loans would have negligible interest rates (basically, would be micro-grants). There is absolutely nothing charitable about the MFI industry today (look at the stock of the few publicly traded MFIs...recession has not hurt them in the least).

But people are paying these loans back so it has to help somebody. In real estate with hard money the juice may be very high (60% was usually the min.), and it can still be very beneficial to the borrower. APR in and of itself doesn't determine the value of a loan.

We are talking about very small loans. Anywhere from $50 to $1000 (as I recall the average being about $200). So say this same vendor (bringing in a TR of $.90/day) gets that $100 loan so she pays $150 in a year. Since she brings in $.90/day, and no longer pays equipment rent, she can bring in $280/year (assuming a 6-day work week). At the end of year she can pay off the $150 and still triple her take-home income. Even if the loan is for $150 and she has to pay off $225, she still comes out better off in that first year, and then the rest of her life is gravy.

Whether or not these loans are hurting more people than they're helping? I don't know the answer. All I know is that for some people it's dramatically changing their lives...the others? They're poor today like they were yesterday, and it was their choice to take the loan. Maybe educating them so they know when a loan makes sense is the answer.